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Hook timer buff and rise of slugging
Ive been noticing far more killers slugging lately, especially after bhvr buffed the hook timers (by 10 seconds I believe).
Wonder if this was intentional. Does bvhr want more slugs? Doesnt seem healthy...
Comments
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I thought the excuse for slugging was because either Boil Over or Sabotage. Devs should have left We're Gonna Live Forever at 150%. 🤡
18 -
Nono, the excuse for slugging were Hook Deadzones.
Or any other lame excuse.
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I’m a jealous Killer.
I punish Survivors who spend more time with each other than with me.
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Killer mains really are desperate to get that extra ten seconds removed.
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The 'reason' will change depending on what works best for the killer main you would be talking to. There is no reason. A player chooses to slug, and they can't just say that, they need to have some scapegoat like BHVR or Survivors did this or that.
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Buffing the hook timer doesn't even make slugging necessary, at all.
Players just choose to slug, that is all that happens.
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People slug for any reason really. Its rarely used for pressure as it is now as much as the forum killer mains like to fall on of why its not a BM.
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Slugging generally only happens when the survivors play badly and set up an advantageous moment to do it. Rarely does a killer just slug and then randomly go looking for someone else. Any form of slugging is overall pretty rare to see in matches since it's so high risk and can backfire very easily.
Some exceptions though. Like certain killers basically have to slug, it's part of their only viable play style. I don't fault them for that. It's like blaming a Hag for setting a web up around a 3 gen and the person on the hook and camping there all game, that's just what Hag does. I don't blame the Hag, even if it is boring.
Then I could also just see a rational point to it. Like there's been tons and tons of anti hook perks that are nearly all meta, so by not hooking in the average match, I'd probably turn off at least half the entire survivor teams perks. That's a pretty strong effect. They've been incentivized not to hook with how overly punishing it is to hook.
As a general concept we want to incentivize the behavior we want to see. DBD has an issue where it punishes you for playing "fair/nice/fun/ect" and rewards you for not doing so.
I generally have no issue with slugging from either perspective though. I think the hate of it people have is generally irrational.
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1.6 seconds doesn't make much of a difference at all if the killer is actually slugging. It only affects aggressive plays.
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It’s almost like it can be more than one reason! And a combination of them at that.
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I actually agree with most of this, mainly due to how much more effective slugging can be instead of hooking. I don't think we should encourage it, but it is starting to become a path of least resistance. However, I do believe it's always a choice, and sometimes it's the right choice. (hello flashlight squad) Survivors making mistakes are inevitable, just as killers make mistakes, as nobody should be expected to play perfectly no matter what "role" , and I beleive both survivor and killer should be able to profit off of those mistakes, but to an extent.
I personally don't agree with it being irrational to want changes to slugging (I mean, depending on the changes of course). As you stated in your post how bypassing the hooking mechanic can ignore almost half entire survivor teams perks, that in itself should not be possible. Distortion was nerfed for this exact reason, as many believed it was unfair that a single survivor perk could counter multiple killer perks. By that same logic, a tactic which can counter more than half of an entire teams perks that doesn't even a require a perk in itself should come with more risk for that kind of reward, in my opinon.
Let's just hope BHVR starts incentivizing hooking, and rewards killers for multiple chases and downs. With all the changes the game has recieved in the past couple years, I don't believe it's that impossible to imagine. Here's hoping!
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"I personally don't agree with it being irrational to want changes to slugging "
Well I never said that. I said the hate for slugging was irrational. I did not saying wanting changes to slugging was irrational. Two different statements. "Changes" is broad, I'd be down for changes depending what they were, even though I don't have an issue with slugging in its current state.
"As you stated in your post how bypassing the hooking mechanic can ignore almost half entire survivor teams perks, that in itself should not be possible. "
I don't really agree with this as a concept. We have many perks that can be ignored in the game by playing in different ways. The only reason so many are ignored by slugging is because of every survivors choice to stack second chance hook perk ontop of second chance hook perk. IE it avoids so many not because slugging inherently ignores more perks than others, but simply because anti hook/second chance perks are the most common survivor perks. What this really demonstrates is that one, tunneling is a problem, and two that there are probably too many second chance perks. This isn't news to anyone though.
"Distortion was nerfed for this exact reason, as many believed it was unfair that a single survivor perk could counter multiple killer perks. By that same logic, a tactic which can counter more than half of an entire teams perks that doesn't even a require a perk in itself should come with more risk for that kind of reward, in my opinon. "
Actually no, apples and oranges. Distortion countering is just throwing on a perk and forget. Slugging is high risk. The cost to slug is not even remotely close to the cost of throwing a perk on. I think you're vastly understating how risky slugging is, it has high cost. Slugging successfully also takes skill, throwing Distortion on does not. These are not comparable in the way you're comparing them.
"Let's just hope BHVR starts incentivizing hooking, and rewards killers for multiple chases and downs. With all the changes the game has recieved in the past couple years, I don't believe it's that impossible to imagine. Here's hoping!"
I do agree with this.
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The reason is because hook perks are increasingly becoming less rewarding. Pop nerfed to current progress then buffed to be somewhere in the middle to back to the 20% current. Pain res getting 20% less regression overall while more and more basekit buffs happen to hooks for survivors overall. And no WGLF should have stayed at 100%. Double the heal speed is already MORE than enough.
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These perks have not been changed in any way, shape, or form for like 6 months.
Anyone claiming this is the cause of increased slugging is simply lying.
It's mainly killers throwing yet another tantrum that literally anything was changed that wasn't a pure killer buff.
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Hmmm. Personally I only slug when I have 2 survivors remaining and the one I drop is on dead hook, so I can get the best possible result. 4k.
That or when theres a Boil Over, No Mither etc team.
I am so tired of people crying about slugging, they cry about it like if happened every match and take no responsability whatsoever. If all 4 of you get slugged and no one does anything is just a skill issue. There are SO MANY OPTIONS to counter it. My god.
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Well, yeah, some of us are (I for example). That change was poorly thought through and not in the least equal to the gentime increase, no matter what the majority of survivor mains seem to think. The math just doesn't support this claim and for many the +10s hook timer was the straw that broke the camels back and made hooks more detrimental to the killer then slugging.
But don't get me wrong, I am not one of the Knockout crew, I tried that build one evening and experienced how much more effective slugging was when compared to straight hooking, especially with all the dangers of picking up involved and how many perks get powered by being hooked, and vied for rolling the +10s hook timer back.
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That change was... not in the least equal to the gentime increase
This is absolutely true.
The gen time increase always applies and there's nothing survivors can do to avoid the extra gen time they added. They can try to offset it with perks, or BNP, but the extra 10 charges is always there.
The extra 10 seconds on hook stages is completely avoided by the killer not camping or waiting near the hook to tunnel. It's completely, entirely within the killers control to never see that extra 10 seconds come into play.
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Good because if they nerfed pain res or pop even more it would be unironically nerfed Overbrine tier. So much work for so little reward meanwhile perks like Lithe or Sprint burst give big rewards for no work done. Then stacked on top of that fact the basekit hook buffs. The original base kit BT was fine but then they extended it and added a 7% haste on top not to mention flashlights just downright being free. A lot of factors one of them for me especially is 4 health states off hook that they shove in your face any chance they get.
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These forums mainly have survivors who have never played killer to a decent extent and basically want killers to become dogs chasing cars. They sensitive so they need to make sure they win even if they make no effort and make sure they can troll the killer but still win.
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You could swap out Killer/Survivor to the opposite role and still say the same thing.
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So you admit that the regression changes have literally no bearing on the current slugging trend.
But you struggle with base kit BT? I didn't think counting to ten was that hard.
Although, counting all the way to ten is, I suppose, hard if someone can't count health states. And you've clearly never played survivor if you think someone has 4 health states off hook. They made endurance not stackable like a year and a half ago?
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To be fair the gen timer buff is commensurate with the extra gen time nerf and IIRC both were initially supposed to come together.
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Wouldn't a gen timer buff and an extra gen time nerf cancel each other?
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You missed the point entirely. Regression perks from getting hooks is getting less valuable therefor it (in a lot of cases) is better to just leave the person on the ground. Also 4 health states off hook, 1 from OTR/basekit bit, another from DS, and then DH. You can be forced to win the equivalent of 2 chases for one survivor or hitting them times.
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Slugging is more efficient than hooking, people are just slowing realizing that
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I've noticed that in my Thompson House thread
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Again, you even admit that none of these regression perks have been touched in like 6 months. That isn't the reason things are changing right now.
The most recent change, in fact, was a buff adding another 2.5% of "current" progress base kit to every kick, including pop. So... Making more of these strongest form of pop base kit.
And don't even try moving the goal post here. You started out complaining about base kit BT, which is trivial for killers to ignore or counter. Suddenly you're changing your stance to literally "but, if the survivor brings 3 perks the killer has to wait a little longer to tunnel and this survivor build only works exactly once per game".
I can't take you seriously, goodbye.
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There is still no causality in this.
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It's PART of the reason not the sole reason. The extra 20 seconds on hook total played another part in the reason people choose to slug over hook. Also once per game is all you really need if you are good at the game and have teammates that dont aimlessly wander around. You clearly do not play at a good enough level to understand that.
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Slugging is more efficient than hooking
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The numbers speak for the slug.
We have 22 perks that should motivate playing hooks, but most of them were nerfed or are not strong enough. I wrote about them in more detail in my thread. The developers are clearly hinting to killer players that they should not play in spreading hooks.
While the slug counters 26 perks, 2 items and quality of life buffs for the survivor on the hook (10 seconds, anti-facecamp, etc.). We really live in crazy times, where hooks are beneficial to the survivor side.
As you can see below, many of these perks are in the meta. Which is a huge advantage in the confrontation with the survivor side.
Camping and Tunneling
Dead Hard, Off the Record, Decisive Strike
Defense
Babysitter, Borrowed Time, Breakdown, Deliverance, Kindred, Reassurance, Resurgence, Second Wind, We'll Make It, Wicked, Fast Track, Blood Rush, Slippery Meat, Camaraderie
Transportation
Boil Over, Breakout, Power Struggle, Flip-Flop
Lantern Assault
Background Player, Flashbang, Champion of Light, Residual Manifest
Toolbox Assault
Saboteur
It also follows that you can unload your builds. By choosing other perks that can work better in slugging.
At the moment, killers have 127 perks, but by choosing the slugging tactic, you will no longer have to worry about 48 perks related to totems, transportation, obsession and hooks. This allows you to focus on the other 79 perks that will help in the slug business. Even at a quick glance, you can notice interesting combinations. That same useless Thanatophobia acquires a completely different value when playing slug. You will find many such examples.
The list is not complete and at the moment is only a sketch. Since I am in the process of searching and testing various slug builds. Each killers needs its own slug build.
Four perks of a true slug player
Knock Out, Infectious Fright, Forced Hesitation, Deerstalker
Passive Slow
Surge, Thanatophobia, Deadlock, Merciless Storm
Search
Deathbound, Spies from the Shadows, Darkness Revealed
Other
Languid Touch, Ultimate Weapon, Batteries Included, Unforeseen, Trail of Torment
The funny thing about this whole situation is the reluctance of survivors to adapt. Anything that makes survivors not follow the m1 and shift+w doctrine is met with fierce resistance. Survivors can already resist slug. The perks written below are proof of this.
Boon: Exponential, Buckle Up, Plot Twist, Soul Guard, Unbreakable, We're Gonna Live Forever, No Mither
For the People, Tenacity, Made for This
Teamwork: Collective Stealth, Teamwork: Power of Two, Blood Pact
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Well put
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Then let me put it in the words of so many killers on this forum. "We shouldn't need a perk to counter base kit."
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Why are people acting here like slugging is not good thing to do?
There are definetly situations, where slugging is best option, it's not just "toxic" thing done by killers…7 -
This isn't "situational slugging", this is the latest "lazy killer" strategy of just doing one thing in every situation no matter what.
It used to be camping and tunneling, until someone realized they could do even less and just never pick up survivors at all.
It's an "always slug, all the time", which requires no situational awareness, game sense, or nuance. It's the latest "slam your face on the keyboard" for low effort games, with the added bonus of usually pissing off your opponent because you're basically BM'ing all the time.
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Slugging can absolutely be the correct thing to do, it all depends on the situation and the killer being run, and sometimes even the map.
An Oni in power is likely to down a surv and go after another one nearby, same for Myers in tier 3. Despite changes Twins is excellent at slugging too. Or a surv might go down under at pallet and the killer knows there's another one around. I do as Pig when in my rounds I find a surv searching a Jigsaw box, mainly because I know it'll stop the timer and give them a chance. In none of these situations does the extra 10 seconds on hook matter.
I think the slugging most complain about is everyone down and only one or no gens even done yet. If they all are left to bleed out yes that's unhealthy, despite those survs most likely screwing up badly to even get into that in the first place. It's still a decision to bleed them all out, and definitely feels so bad when it happens. Last two survs and one is slugged has more to do with how the hatch works. And again those 10 seconds do not come into play there either.
Post edited by JPLongstreet on1 -
you realize that hooking all the time is no situational awareness, game sense or nuance. personally, i don't have a problem with killer gameplay being pushed towards slugging. it just means that hooking doesn't have enough of a reward. the killer trying to win is not BMing.
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It's all well and good that they're doing another monster hunt here. But how will it help you? If you want to change anything, you need to direct all your "us versus them" energy to giving killers a reason to play hooks. Preferably those same 12 hooks.
How can you not understand that in the long run, there will be someone like me left among the killers. Do you really think that all the nerfs harm those same campers and tunnelers? No. Those who play hooks suffer the most. For a camper and tunneler, this is a reason to simply become better. True, not in the ways that the surviving side wanted to see ;)
And your 12 hook players will fully feel all the nerfs, since the knightly code of honor will not allow them to take harsh measures to achieve their goal. You will see them at most on holidays, archive quests and the new DLC, after which they will return to play as a survivor. They don't have the mindset to constantly play the killer with the current balance. The increased number of sad tactics proves it.
Only we are ready to tolerate everything that the game puts against us. Because we have enough determination to use all means to achieve the goal. No one will play to their own detriment. Only benefit is important and most will only do what is profitable. Profitable, unfortunately, is not what is fun. Even one respected streamer released a video on how to play slug on Singularity. Showing that slug is a profitable tactic. That's how crazy times have come that media personalities have seen the benefit of slug.
As for me personally. That's why I am convinced every time that I have chosen the right path. One of the last games. Three warriors of light with the Crow's Eye offering. If the killer was weaker in spirit, he would have become a fun toy for survivors, but, fortunately, they got to me in the lobby, and not to the baby Trapper.
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I'm personally of the opinion that camping tunneling and slugging are situational tactics. There's a correct time and place to do them, and typically that situation is going to be rare or at least sparingly.
Doing one thing in every situation is simply incorrect. And being better at the game means at least knowing when those things should come into play.
So yes, always picking up immediately or always hooking in every case is not always correct either.
But that isn't what people are taking about with this "strategy". It's just "always slug in every situation". It's lazy, takes no game sense or thought, and, like I said before is nearly maximizing BM to your opponent.
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The reasons I slug is in how the team plays. There can be a sabo squad making it impossible to hook, there was once a group who purposesly hung around an area with no hooks, just toxic things. However this doesn't happen every game and it's rare
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It's not just killer mains. It's people who don't like the change. Survivors are hanging up on hook for what seems like forever, the killer has downed 1 maybe even 2 other survivors, and they still get unhooked in time before hitting second stage. As if hook trading wasn't a time positive for survivors before, assuming they did the gens in the meantime. The change really upsets the balance of the game, especially coinciding with all the hook-based gen defence nerfs. There's basically zero incentive to hook, and there's no time to either, so killers will just slug and hope for the 4k that way, rather than doing normal chases and hooking, and getting a 1-2k for it.
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I think that's what happened, and is an additional reason for why solo survivor feels so hard: the quality of the average survivor has gone down because their gameplay has been dumbed down (all the handouts and killer nerfs), but the average killer is way better than they used to be because the chase-focused ones left and the campers/tunnelers got more efficient.
Slugging is really the only way to play Singularity. He just has nothing otherwise. You spend all this time, effort, and planning setting up cameras and spreading infection and hits around, but you don't get any downs and the gens get done, because of how overpowered EMPs are. In addition to them, hooking people also removes infection for free. So why would you ever hook?
And I've been convince, too. Every time, I say to myself, "There is no possible way I could have won that match, or got more than a draw, by chasing normally. I HAD to tunnel/slug." And these doubters just don't get it. They do an Otz, where they think if you just have enough skill, if you just believe in yourself enough like an anime hero, you'll somehow be able to beat ANY team. I'm sorry, but it's simply not true. There ARE matches that happen in this game which are literally unwinnable on the killer side, and that should never be the case, but until people accept that truth, we're going nowhere fast.
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it is called having defaults. the defaults of hooking wasn't working. always slugging in every situation is a strategy… i think your devaluing the killer gameplay because you do not like how killer is winning.
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I never understood that. "You're bad. Just chase normally to win." So they're not supposed to use strategies or game sense to win? They're just supposed to go off the first gen or survivor they see, and not think ahead? Ironically all these people saying that killers tunneling and stuff "takes no skill/brain power" are advocating for a gameplay loop where you don't critically think at all and are playing on hard mode for no reason, and you'll lose because of it.
It's like being told that you're supposed to win a NASCAR race with 1 of your tires being flat, and when you complain that it's not fair compared to the other cars who are in tip top condition, they just say, "No, it is fair. You're basically set to win 10/10 times." It's not based in reality; they're just saying stuff.
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There are matches where slugging is literally necessary because of the time disadvantage you need to catch up from. Not all time disadvantages are your fault, and on killer I think it's the default vs good survivors. But the point is, if you're never gonna be able to down and hook survivors fast enough, through not fault of your own, before the gens are done and they run out, what other choice is there for you to win? It's a false choice.
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I think the devs have hooks in the game for a reason. And people circumventing the literal objective is a problem. There are BP incentives to hook, and BP penalties when a survivor bleeds out.
It is inevitable, if this continues in large enough numbers (ie, meta), that the devs will have to address this tactic and people will not like the nerf when that happens.
A similar, but not quite equivalent, result is survivors who swarm the killer with flashlights for rescues. Again, if done situationally (sparingly) this is good gameplay. But if every survivor decided to forego gens for half an hour to simply deny the killer any kind of down, that becomes what people describe as a "bully squad".
In fact, the response to this in the past was base kit nerfs to prevent it. This is exactly what happened with locker flashlight saves, and why killers get a base kit lightborn for a couple seconds during a locker grab.
I'm almost 100% certain no one, including you, would describe that as "a change in the default" to try and justify it. In that sense, excessive slugging is the killer BM'ing and avoiding the objective in a way that is merely an abuse of game mechanics, instead of the survivors.
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While I agree that there are certain situations where slugging is necessary, I don't think they happen due to time disadvantage. At least not as often as it is said. I think it is still possible to get good results by spreading hooks.
But I'll share two screenshots of my own:
This game I've had during the Blood Moon event is what I would define as necessary slugging, because this particular survivor (who used a map offering) had Boil Over, and it was literally impossible for me to bring her to a hook. Here there was no choice.
However:
Here is unnecessary slugging at its finest. The killer was definitely not at a disadvantage here. This Hillbilly had no reason to slug, he simply chose to do it.
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the objective is to kill players. the player is not circumventing the objective. the player is choosing alternative form of winning.
people will not like the nerf when that happens.
who said that they have to nerf slugging? perhaps increasing hook time from 60→70 second is over-nerf to hooking as OP describes.
In that sense, excessive slugging is the killer BM'ing and avoiding the objective in a way that is merely an abuse of game mechanics, instead of the survivors.
i do not agree that bleeding out survivors is bming or avoiding the objective. i am more on the side @danielmaster87 where the killer should have a say in how they choose to win. hooking and slugging should be valid tactics to win.
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I don't know.
They act like you can just will into existence the slowdown that you need, and the quick downs that you need. No. Look at the gameplay loop.
If the killer has 3 hooks and there's 1 gen left, how are they supposed to win. "It's the killer's fault he's in that position." Based on what? Assuming that the killer must always be a bad chaser or have bad game awareness to ever come close to that position?
And if we're gonna go that route, I could allege the same thing against survivors, and sometimes I do. You died at 5 gens? Your team must have been really bad. That simply must be true in order for that situation to occur. But notice the nuance I give them. Their team has to do bad; I never said they alone lost their team the match. They can be the best survivor on their team, and might never even make a mistake, but if their team is trash then they'll still lose, as is logical. That's not fair for them, but it happens nonetheless, and doesn't change the outcome of the match.
The mistake this community makes is not giving that same benefit of the doubt to the killer. They just say, "The killer has a bad result? He MUST be bad." They don't account for the countless situations in this game where he literally has no agency, and the survivors do instead. If you run a jungle gym or shack correctly, most killers literally can't hit you there until Bloodlust 2 or something stupid.
It can appear, to untrained eyes, that killers on these forums don't give survivors respect for their nuances, but that's because the things a lot of them argue about are just strange, and are not high level at all. "The killer is OP because he can see my aura." If it was so OP, survivors would never escape in all these years, especially against the killers that run 4 aura perks. And yet they have, because they didn't care if they got spotted. They'd just loop the killer. So it's my conclusion that a lot of the killers are arguing for top level balance changes, and a lot of the survivors are arguing for casual balance changes. That's why we don't see eye to eye.
Now, some people say, "You shouldn't always be arguing for top level play, then. Or you should clarify that." But if you ask me, it should just be common knowledge that they're arguing about that. I mean, what are casuals even doing talking about game balance? They don't even have 100 hours in-game, some of these people, and they're dictating to veterans, "The game MUST be balanced this way, so we can have fun." when it's obvious that experienced players usually (and should) beat newbies. I don't think they understand what they're talking about a lot of the time, and you can tell that, again, by the stuff they talk about. "Wraith and Legion are so OP! They're unbeatable! Nerf BBQ & Chili!"
Given all that, you can understand why they think about slugging that way. They think it's unfair, in the same way they think the killers moving faster than them is unfair.
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You can't take someone else seriously? 2.5% is nothing, and you're gonna get upset over that, and not base BT which always gets abused as an offensive tool to waste killer's time. How is free speed (as fast as some killers), Endurance (another health state + sprint burst), and body blocking trivial? The killer can just ignore all of that, and not lose anything for it?
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