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“Just Use Counterforce” (Hex: Thrill Of The Hunt Rant)
I see a lot of posts saying “just use Counterforce to deal with Hex: Thrill of the Hunt” but I’d love to just collectively deal with all of these threads by bringing up some counter arguments that completely shutdown Counterforce entirely.
First off… let’s talk modifiers… and math…
For those who don’t know how modifiers in DBD work, perk descriptions work in percentages but in DBD’s code these percentages are converted into decimals and equations to calculate what happens at a given time. Based on how this equation is set up, it can result in positive or negative modifiers being more or less effective.
To put it bluntly, Counterforce got the worse end of the stick here. Negative modifiers are applies first. Positive modifiers are applied second. This results in Counterforce having a diminished effect at cleansing totems due to how the match works out for the Charge per Second (C/S).
- Hex Totems take 14 seconds to cleanse; 1 C/S and 14 Charges, 14 Seconds.
- Hex: Thrill of the Hunt applies a 70% deficiency modifier; 0.3 C/S and 14 Charges, 46 Seconds.
- Counterforce applies a +20% (or extending effect) efficiency modifier afterwards; 0.36 C/S and 14 Charges, 38 Seconds.
- Hex: Face The Darkness makes Survivors outside of the Terror Radius scream every 25 seconds, reveal their location, and interrupt actions. Even with Counterforce, you are unable to counter Hex: Face The Darkness, the cleanse time is just too long.
Second off… Counterforce is licensed perk…
This can lead to a whole set of issues when it comes to came balance. Licensed Perks are normally designed to be “gimmicky” or “really bad” to avoid being meta.
If a Licensed Perk becomes necessary to run every game, and the only way to actively get said perk is through spending money, it leads to issues where the game becomes Pay to Win.
There is the Shrine of Secrets, which sometimes holds Licensed Perks, but it is unreliable and might not even release the License Perk you need. There are many cases where perks (including Non-Licensed Perks) have not shown up in the Shrine of Secrets or take literal years to show up.
I don’t think this is healthy design for the game.
Comments
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Saying "run x perk" to counter some busted perk on the other side in order to justify some overpowered perk as being fair, has never been a good argument and never will be. Whether you needed that counterpick perk in a given match or not is a complete guess and you can't change that once the game has started. This goes for both survivors and killers. Thrill of the Hunt is just the most recent example but it's far from the first time this has happened.
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I remember the “just run detectives for noed” “run ds for tunneling” “run unbreakable soul guard no mither for slugging” “run object for weave”. Just annoying💀
Oh and who could forget, “run empathy for old eruption”.
I would like to bring fun perks like Blastmine or fineness instead of having to run perks for a chance to counter BS5 -
It’s happened on both sides and frankly it’s getting annoying. But in this specific case, I wanted to point out how the “counter” option does not even counter anything. It’s non-solutions to problems… or excuses. It’s tiring.
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The problem persisted even without the thrill buff its just reached a critical mass that people actually started experimenting and figured it out
Thrill before the update 50% 28s totems
Thrill after 70% 46s totems
Now counterforce would have been able to 1:1 counter it pre-update but also people would 100% just not bring either perk pre update
Its still something you want but its not a 100% counter unless you get the ball rolling, cleansing any first totem before the killer can activate face the darkness will give you another 20% cleansing speed (40% total) but more importantly reduce thrill of the hunts effect by 14%, meaning totems now take 31s to cleanse for all teammates, and you can cleanse the next totem in 22s, if the killer is playing to protect their 3 or 4 totems, (likely thrill, ruin, devour, face the darkness) you can start bypassing the interruption windows or breakpoints like biopods reactivating.
Its not an easy counter but it can set things into motion to tear apart their build. And at the end of the day while it bought them time they now have no perks or ~1 perk
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For some reason Killers like to suggest mediocre to bad Perks which should be run to counter their overpowered playthings. And Thrill of the Hunt is a recent example.
Can we buff DS to 8 seconds? And let Enduring counter it again? So that we can tell Killers to just run Enduring, if they complain about DS? Wonder how that would turn out. (I know how it would turn out)
But yeah, running Counterforce is not that helpful against that Build. It is A solution, but not even a good one. And if you dont play against someone using Thrill of the Hunt, you have an empty Perk Slot. Or, even worse, you play against someone who does use Hex-Totems, but not Thrill of the Hunt and this person is basically cooked because they have a even harder time with Hexes now.
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So because a perk is licensed, it should never be strong. That's the advice the devs have taken as well. And you wonder why all the chapters these days suck/sell bad.
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So as a solution to situations where the survivors "can't do anything," we should instead take away the killer's ability to do anything. 👏
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And strategies, don't forget the strategies.
"Just run anti-runnel / anti-camping / anti-slug / anti-slowdown / anti-totem" and the list goes on.
Though the problem is that, unlike perks such as Unbreakable or WGLF, Counterforce doesn't do a good job of countering the perk it is supposed to counter.
Thankfully, Thrill won't remain like this. They plan to address it in the next hotfix.
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Of course it's not healthy for the game, just like old Weave Attunement. Some killer players just have the idea that because they are supposedly the "power role" its fine for them to have completely broken perks. If you can't do at least decently at killer without taking advantage of the most scummy builds you can find you're just bad at the game, period. The problem is Bhvr. listens to whining killer players because they dominate the forums.
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I genuinely believe looking at the numbers, this was a genuine error. Everything that lost bloodpoints was buffed by 4/5/6% or so... and I think someone looked at Thrill of the Hunt and just said "yeah 4% seems good", without realising that it is actually 20%.
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They are (me too) telling you to run this perk until TOTH going to get inevitably nerfed…
TOTH will be nerfed, no doubt. But until then - run Counterforce.
What's wrong with this advice? I don't get it.
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Because your solutions to killers having "overpowered" stuff is to give survivors overpowered stuff. That's literally what the 8-second DS change would be. The perk was already game breaking at 3 seconds. People just needed to go down near actual loops, instead of relying on a 5-second stun to get them across the map. Either way, the perk's strength is in the killer getting stunned and losing all his pressure in an instant, AND he now has to chase that survivor an additional time to kill them. If he doesn't take that chase, he wasted a chase and got stunned for nothing. Taking more than 1 DS, he might as well open the exits for them.
What you call mediocre on survivor is actually decent. It's just that the survivor meta has been so stupidly strong and untouched for so long, you think that should be the standard. Unbreakable and BT have never been toned down, and are still strong (BT just isn't run, because you get it for free now. Go figure). If killers didn't tunnel or run gen defence or anything, then picking up dropped pallets, doing totems/chests faster, crawling faster, or creating illusions on gens would all be okay. But killers have to tunnel and run gen defence just to play, because balance changes almost never give them time, just takes it away, and so survivors have to counter that. And they do. 1 DS stun or 1 Endurance hit can be game-losing for the killer. It's just that bad survivors don't take advantage of that stuff. They're like, "The killer's tunneling? Oooohhh man. I better start walking slowly, or take 3 minutes to do 1 gen." Better yet, they rage quit and then tell the devs how they lost because "killah OP" when their leaving is what cost the team the match!
And no offense, but your last point is contrary to everything else you're saying. You're afraid that Thrill makes hexes OP, and that Counterforce isn't good enough, but that Counterforce also singlehandedly kills non-Thrill hex builds. Well, which is it? Do killers have the OP perk, or do survivors?
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Yeah, exactly. Counterforce is doing a really bad job at countering Thrill of the Hunt. I have seen people suggest to buff Counterforce, but this would make it harder for players who just use regular Hex-Builds, e.g. someone who just uses Ruin/Undying, which is totally fine to use.
Can you please link me to the post where they said they will address it? Have not seen it yet. EDIT: Found it :)
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I agree completely, my friend, buffing Counterforce wouldn't be a good way to fix this problem.
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you already think killers can’t do anything💀
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“The perk was already game breaking at 3 seconds.”-ds
Skill issue
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All those people are are telling others to use Counterforce...were they using Shattered Hope when Circle of Healing was strong? I don't think so.
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Even with counterforce, using pentimento and hooking near it gives insane value. Proxy camping a penti totem and a hook is incredibly strong.
I tried a couple rounds of this playing mean with wraith. Penti/Thrill/Ruin/Blood Favor, same build v1 ran in his video. One round they ignore totems, I snowball by slugging. One round Eyrie offering and 2 counterforces, I proxied basement next to penti and the game was over. Another round on Lerys a survivor with counterforce cleansed both the dull totems to charge up their perk, and even though I could not defend all the totems, they gave me so many free penti stacks and wasted so much time that the round was over anyway.
I'm sure this build can be outplayed, but probably only by survivors of a high enough caliber who ignore totems and also never get hit while running full anti tunnel and slug builds. And as OP has mentioned, asking solo queue players to bring counterforce (paid DLC) is simply not viable given how many other things the average solo needs to run (aura to help with inefficient play due to lack of comms, paid DLC for decisive, unbreakable for anti slug, exhaustion for deadzones and worse tiles, healing/gen perk to counter slowplay 3 gen)
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The perk was already game breaking at 3 seconds. People just needed to go down near actual loops, instead of relying on a 5-second stun to get them across the map. Either way, the perk's strength is in the killer getting stunned and losing all his pressure in an instant, AND he now has to chase that survivor an additional time to kill them. If he doesn't take that chase, he wasted a chase and got stunned for nothing. Taking more than 1 DS, he might as well open the exits for them.
You're basically following a six-step plan to make DS actually activate and then at the tail end of it you just pull a frowny face and go 'why is DS so OP?'.
I have been hit with DS once in my life. It was the first time and immediately the last time because I wasn't stupid enough to fall for the same trick again. DS has literally had zero value in games against me since.
'Game breaking', please.
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I don't think anyone is saying this. What is being said is "the only way to counter the most popular and powerful strategies should not be locked behind paywalls in a paid game".
For example, tunneling. Every single person I introduce to DBD starts getting tunneled and HATES it. It sucks that the only real counter to tunneling that lets them enjoy the game was locked behind DLC (Decisive Strike) and they had to buy it or deal with being tunneled. Fortunately, Shoulder The Burden helps with this.
The Stranger Things perks being free for a while really helped with this too, as Babysitter is a decent anti tunnel perk for others and Kinship is great for anti camp.
Same thing on the killer side, imagine a friend getting introduced to the game right now (surge no longer free) and telling him "nope, there are no perks to slow down generators that you can get without paying money. Hey, try Huntress Lullaby, it will work as long as you play against noobs, once you get better, you have nothing!" That is when my friend stopped playing.
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Adding on, the only free perk that even somewhat helps against totems is small game. Which helps you know where totems are, but doesn't help you cleanse them at all.
If the killer is running any addon or perk that makes you scream, the only viable way to cleanse totems is further applying a 30 percent slowdown to your cleansing and blessing speeds with calm spirit, or hoping you can cleanse a totem before the screaming happens to activate Hardened.
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I mean this was a thing before the thrill buff? People just never used it.
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Oh and who could forget, “run empathy for old eruption”.Oh wow, I'd forgotten about that. That was crazy times.
I've been hit with it more than once, though I just take it like I would a blast mind stun and resume playing the game, but it is kind of funny to end a game as the killer and see every survivor running OTR and/or DS and just be like 'huh, neat'.
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I just wanted to mention that BT has indeed been toned down. It may have been a while since it was last touched but it use to work on both the unhooked survivor and the person unhooking them. It had insane value in the endgame and was often times a guaranteed out for both survivors. Old BT brought more value than the free one that exist now.
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Im not seeing an issue with hexs, I tried it out and failed badly so I put it down to me just being bad or inexperienced at hex builds and I tried survivors for 6 hours. A came across a few hex builds where people just couldn't cleanse anything and ended up getting hooked multiple times before a single gen popped. But I found the matches where survivors pretty much ignored the totems and worked on gens were a lot better. Bare in mind I was playing soloq, many survivors escaped just by not wasting time on totems. What I learned was that survivors that know how to play well can still counter hex builds without having a hex counter perk. It's possible these killers also sucked at hex builds and that's why so many escaped, maybe if the killer knew what they were doing then it would be a different story but all I can go off is what I have experienced so far. And that is basically ignore the totems if a full hex build is in play...works for me as survivor as I'm not even good at playing survivor
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They should buff Counterforce even though they're nerfing Thrill honestly. That perk just isn't very good.
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you right those were crazy times but not shocked since so many people are so hellbent on justifying everything that is broken towards their side
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They should make it do something else because the perk is garbage (just like how you said and I agree).
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The fact you are complaing about Hex Thrill Of The Hunt shows the entitlement of the survivor community. It's one of the most useless killer perks in the game…
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…Shows the entitlement of the Survivor community…
I play both sides. In fact I literally made another thread about Shoulder The Burden not that long ago, so I dont know what point you are trying to prove here. :/
…One of the must useless Killers perks in the game…
In fact, I literally put the entire reason why it is an issue in the post but you outright ignored it to call me "entitled".
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Hex: Thrill of the Hunt is overtuned. The cleansing, mixed with anything which can disrupt conspicuous actions (such as Hex: Face the Darkness) is an unenjoyable experience.
Hopefully, the numbers will be downgraded in the upcoming patch.
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Making people waste 46 seconds to cleanse one totem is useless?
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