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How about those who are complaining finally start using anti-totem perks?
Comments
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I can't argue with Firellius here because they won't change their minds, so I'll just add here the obvious elephant in the room:
Hex perks really are not that common, and if this build becomes a nw meta then Survivor perks will need to change to compensate. What's so wrong about adding a new Meta to learn to play around? Seriously, Survivors need more to do, and this adds it, so what is the actual problem?
I'm starting to think a lot of the Survivor side complaints around here are just "let me win, I want to win more" in disguise. As someone who plays both, I actually think Survivor's in a fine state right now and doesn't need any more.1 -
Perks are not, or at least should not, be there as a way to counter playstyles. Perks are there to give advantages in certain areas, not be an absolutely necessity.
Take healing perks as an example. If the Killer brings a bunch of anti-healing perks and the survivors don't have healing perks, the survivors still have multiple options to play around it. Likewise a bunch of healing perks on the survivor side isn't going to automatically win them the game just because they are countering the killer's perks. That's healthy game design, perks give you an advantage, but they don't decide the match.
DbD is at its absolute worst when the game is decided in the loading screen. The worst offender of this was old 3 genning and Potential Energy. "Killer is 3 genning and survivors don't have potential energy, survivors lose" vs "Killer is 3 genning and and survivors do have potential energy, survivors win". It's awful design when the perk selection, which is at best an educated guess, is the ultimate determining factor of who wins and loses.
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That's actually really true, this could help give maps a purpose as well as perks that show totems a purpose. Whaddya know! Killed two birds with one stone, BHVR did. Now we just have to see if Survivors will engage or just DC and give up on hook as a temper tantrum, regardless of if they tone the perk down or not.
Hint: They should tone it down a tic, it's just a bit strong.2 -
I think more people are upset when this type of playstyle is used against solo-queue players, which most of this player base is.
46s for a totem to be cleansed and needing to use Counterforce (which makes the first totem 38s and with each totem goes down for four seconds per each totem that's cleansed).
That's a lot of downtime + killers get notified when you are actually cleansing said Hex totems. When you factor that in, you now have a survivor with Counterforce who either needs to sit on the totem for 38s or you have a player who sits there and just is the designated totem hunter trying to cleanse dulls to get the cumulative effect that Counterforce provides.
Regardless, this is a huge time sunk to make survivors focus on optional objectives to cleanse totems as Thrill of the Hunt is most commonly used with Devour Hope and other hexes - meaning in the best case scenario you have a killer running two hex perks causing this so called survivor to focus on dulls.
However the more hexes in a game makes the game more of a drag as many will use Hex: Undying, Hex: Thrill of the Hunt, Hex: Devour Hope, and whatever fourth perk you want to slap on to waste even more of the survivors' time — the perk is overtuned in my opinion and needs to be toned down.
I find it odd that this perk got compensation for the blood bonus removal, but none of the other perks such as Barbeque and Chili and Prove Thyself (it received a nerf lol). Hex: Thrill of the Hunt was fine the way it was before this buff, if anything a common ground can be reached to make the perk more fair to go against - if you want to keep the totem regressing speed, then remove the ability to see when survivors are attempting to cleanse a Hex.
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Hex perks really are not that common
They weren't… but if you giga buff one perk to make hex perks nearly uncleansable with the right combo or play style then the only downside to hexes is completely eliminated.
This is also really obvious in that every killer is at least trying out the new, broken thing and it's literally everywhere. This isn't "wow, ruin, haven't seen that in weeks", it's "oh look, undying proc. Better go get started cleaning devour for the next 30 minutes".
What's so wrong about adding a new Meta to learn to play around?
This is exactly the same problem we had with the 3 gen meta. It's puts a hard focus on the "environment" part of the game, and means that everyone is suddenly playing PvE for no good reason.
Killers will start defending totems like it's suddenly been their only job their whole lives and survivors have to deal with the frustration of having basically uncleansable hexes, which is not how these perks were designed.
And this is the same problem we had with 3 gen because the killer's focus is not on survivors anymore. With 3 gen it was, clearly, gens, and with thrill it's totems. This isn't a PvE game, and having one perk giga buffed to cause this whole thing means that change needs reverted quickly.
No one is saying anything about winning except in your mind. This is about "if survivors are designed to lose the game anyway, can it not be a frustrating, and completely hopeless fight over territory?"
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i really need to be honest, problem with hexes are their spawns. Buffing Thrill in such a dirty way in order to force longer cleansing is not the way to fix this problem, it's just a bandaid that will rather make perks like Pentimento even more oppressive and infuriating to deal with
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Nobody is asking Survivors to "have the ability to counter everything" and the Killer quite frankly CANNOT bring all of those at once, don't be disingenuous here.
It's not a disingenuous thing to bring up, though. You can't wait and see and then adjust your build based on what kind of playstyle the killer brings, you have to bring all these counterperks -before- you can find out whether or not you actually need them.
Which means you pick up to four playstyles that you can counter and then just spin the wheel and hope you get something that fell within your budget, otherwise you get steamrolled.
Even if not every killer brings knock-out and goes on a slugging spree, you will still need to have an anti-slug perk in your build permanently if you want to avoid getting wrecked by that. Even if not every killer brings TotH chasing an uncleansable Devour/Ruin build, you will still need to have Counterforce in your build permanently if you want to avoid getting wrecked by that.
You can try and argue that that's just something survivors have to deal with, but the balance should adjust accordingly. If survivors can't be expected to bring all the counterperks all the time, then these tactics have to be balanced around the possibility that the counterperks are -not- present on the opposing team.
Especially given the variety of styles and options that killers have, producing way more strategies than survivors have room to counter. And though it would be good for the game to have more playstyles and variations, if band-aid perks are the chosen path, it would be really, really bad for balance.
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Because DbD is not and should not be a counterpick game. Three things are guaranteed to happen in every trial: you will have teammates, you have to complete 5 gens at 90 charges each, and the killer will chase players. If you prepare for anything else, you're going to have a useless build half the time.
This is the equivalent of saying a survivor should run Slippery Meat because they might have to kobe on first hook. It's bad game design if RNG is strong enough that players have to build a loadout to counter it. This isn't a casual card game like Uno.
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pre dropping won't save u
legion, plague, wraith, skull merchant, ghost face, pig, sadako, and any strong anti loop killer can get hit quickly. Even through stealth or other means.
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Reject totem perks and just pre running the killer to oblivion. Stay safe out there. The worst Thrill games I have are the ones where Face the Darkness never come online that's my advice.
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"Just wait it out"
"Just let go of the gen"
"Just run light-born"6 -
What do you mean by dirty method? HexPerks have to be strong, otherwise it's not worth the effort.
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Hex perks are meant to be high risk-high reward perks, while only ~10% of them are strong, while Thrill buff is a terrible bandaid to the bigger problem which are hex spawns.
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Even if you completely remove Thrill from the game, most survivors will complain because they don't like clearing totems. They want to do gens in peace and that will never change.
Of course, other factors also play a role. For example, being prevented from clearing, having a bad start and much more but, even if this is a terrible argument, a large proportion of survivors simply don't want to make totems and are too lazy.
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The first couple minutes of a match quite literally determine the outcome. If survs take that long to remove the hexes killer already wins…
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Even if you completely remove Thrill from the game, most survivors will complain because they don't like clearing totems. They want to do gens in peace and that will never change.
As evidenced by what?
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Ah, I would be my slots are taken up by anti tunnel and anti slug perks cause yano, i was told "if you dont like the killer slugging or tunneling bring the perks" 🤷🏼♀️
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Well thanks to the buff of hex builds I have experimented with them and was looking forward to using them more in the future as it delayed the match long enough to spread hooks. But clearly it's going to be nerfed due to sheer number number of complaints so when it does it looks like it's back to tunnelling at 5gens, camping and slugging as hex builds will be useless yet again.
Survivors claim to hate these tactics but yet they fight to get anything that helps steer a killer away from them nerfed.
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From what you wrote it seems like you don't have your toy = you play scummy, so there is like 100% chance that if you'd bring Hex Build and lose against good survivors, you'd still tunnel and slug them, because why not? :)
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I don't think I've seen a hexs are to strong nerf them in a long while till Thrill got mega buffed sneakily with 0 testing before hand.
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Or y'know, the killer has a brain cell and injures one player without a medkit with a Haemorrhage add-on, leaves them and hunts everyone else for free.
If that survivor doesn't have (or even if they do have totem perks), hey presto, you've got Pig levels of slowdown, on a much more lethal killer.
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the shack will give you about 30 seconds, and if your allies have counterpower then you need to hold out for only 17 seconds in the chase without taking damage, shift w+1 palette will already give you 20 safe seconds, try at least a little looping and you can easily beat this time
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Thrill of the Hunt probably is overtuned right now, I agree on that, but what I miss a bit about this whole conversation is, how all the complaints about how useless hex builds were in the past would just be deflected by one of the boldest and long-lived lies in DBD history: "its balanced, hexes are high risk, high reward. Just git gud".
Hex perks have for the most part always been "Hight risk, low or meh rewards", you either went 100% Hex totems with layered defense, or you shouldn't even bother. I vividly remember the discussions back in the day when Mikael dropped, and killers were complaining about how snuffed boons should stay destroyed, and how unbelievable many survivor mains claimed that they wouldn't consider boon perks at all, if they could be snuffed and they could end up with a dead perk. I learned back then that the concept of "high risk, high reward" was only applicable if it was imposed on the killer population, but the other was around wouldn't fly.
Circling back to the current discussion: now that hexes are highly viable, suddenly everyone is complaining about it and wants to remind everyone, that hexes shouldn't be this safe, but have a risk involved :D Pure comedy.
But alas, I think that Thrill makes hex builds, especially Devour builds, way too save and there should be other ways to buff hexes. For one, Thrill should have never lost its noise notification when a survivor touched a totem. This was so much more interactive and allowed so many better plays then staying on a totem for 45s.
Second: I still vie for my ultimate Hex rework
- At the start of the match all totems are dull, allowing survivors to interact with them any way they want: boob them, cleanse them for tome challenges or to power perks like Overzealous and Inner Strength or just to make a mental note where they are.
- For the first 90-120s (this would have to be tested out to find the sweet spot) the Entity sustains all of the killers hexes, so they get some guranteed value out of them.
- After this grace period ends, all of the killers hexes get transfered to dull totems on the map, lighting them up. If fewer dulls remain then the killer has hex perks, then the right most hexes in their loadout fizzle out, until all hexes can light up a dull totem.
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Pretty much true, if hex builds didnt work then I would tunnel and slug but that requires time to determine if the hex builds are effective in that match or not. I have been running hex builds with some success so I haven't been tunneling at 5 gens and slugging. When they haven't been effective the damage was already done so even tunneling and slugging wasn't that effective by that point. You say play scummy but like always any other effective method to take on swf gets nerfed due to survivor complaints. If survivors don't like the scummy ways killers play then maybe don't complain about literally everything because all that's left will be "scummy" plays.
I would like to add that I never used to tunnel or slug, I started doing that when gens started popping too fast. Sometimes on certain maps 1 is done before I even see a survivor lol. Survivors even complained about regress perks so they got nerfed 🤷♂️ it is what is but complaining about too many things means they shoot themselves in the foot
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Thrill of the Hunt probably is overtuned right now, I agree on that, but what I miss a bit about this whole conversation is, how all the complaints about how useless hex builds were in the past would just be deflected by one of the boldest and long-lived lies in DBD history: "its balanced, hexes are high risk, high reward. Just git gud".
That's not at all what was being said.
The remark about 'high risk, high reward' got trotted out to explain why it's broken to have Devour Hope or Ruin be uncleansable. Then the risk is axed entirely, the reward has to go too. The risk is part of the reason why some hex perks have inordinately high value.
You can argue about the execution of this, and a lot of survivor players will also agree that hexes are currently not powerful enough, that's absolutely fair, but that doesn't mean Thrill of the Hunt is okay. I personally lost it when I saw that Ruin got the wrong half of its 6.1 slaughter-nerf reverted. It takes effort to get it as wrong as BHVR does, since that decision wasn't just wrong, it was wrong-er. It was the wrong-er-est decision.
Hex perks have for the most part always been "Hight risk, low or meh rewards", you either went 100% Hex totems with layered defense, or you shouldn't even bother. I vividly remember the discussions back in the day when Mikael dropped, and killers were complaining about how snuffed boons should stay destroyed, and how unbelievable many survivor mains claimed that they wouldn't consider boon perks at all, if they could be snuffed and they could end up with a dead perk. I learned back then that the concept of "high risk, high reward" was only applicable if it was imposed on the killer population, but the other was around wouldn't fly.
Except Boons weren't really leaning on 'high risk', but on 'high investment'. Spending 14 seconds on a totem and then getting an okay boon effect that then gets perma-snuffed in 2 seconds by the killer would make the perks completely unusable.
And if you wanted to add in high risk on top of that, you get a different issue, which is one that Invocations now also face: If you make these perks this high investment and this high risk, the counterbalancing reward that has to be put on the opposite end of that has to be absolutely nuts. As in, bigger than release CoH. As in, Exponential might need to be global range. As in, Dark Theory might need to go over the value that MFT used to have.
And considering how much killers absolutely loathed playing against CoH, it's safe to say, they wouldn't like that.
If Boons were permasnuffed, the entire class of perks would be irrevocably in the trash because they're either 'balanced and awful to play against', or 'worthless but at least not a problem'. And we know which of those two options the killer vote would go out to. (And rightfully so, don't get me wrong)
But alas, I think that Thrill makes hex builds, especially Devour builds, way too save and there should be other ways to buff hexes.
See, this we can definitely agree on. I think the post got eaten since I think it was on the Chucky PTB, but I once outlined how the re-igniting effect from Two Can Play could be used to give other hexes considerably higher sustainability without breaking them. I also think it's a good idea if some hex perks simply get weakened by being broken, rather than being completely removed. I think one thing I suggested, for example, is that Huntress' Lullaby simply loses the ability to gain stacks when it's destroyed, but the present stacks stay active.
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I saw tru3 call you a low level player for your take In another thread (which I disagree with). You should watch his video its hilarious but not shocking how wrong his take is on the thrill meta
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i saw that too🤣🤣🤣it on his second last stream.
right at the start of that stream he open up the forums and proceeded to cook edgarpoop for being "disingenuous".
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yep basically showing that he puts down players that he disagrees with
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And they still need nerfs now, except Adrenaline. They may have reduced map size and tile chaining, except Suffocation Pit, Azarov's Resting Place, Crotus Prenn. Apparently in those places it's fine to put jungle gyms right next to a TL or even shack. But pallet have not become weaker, I'm sorry. The filler pallets are every bit as strong as they used to be, if not more (because the devs like to add more to them from time to time), except for the Coldwind filler pallets. Whatever the devs have said and done, the game hasn't been made easier for killer. I've never had to play this hard just to get draws with killer. This is not unique to me, because it's echoed among the other multi-thousand hour players.
Maybe it's the MMR finally working, that's giving legitimate same-level opponents as ourselves, that's revealing the massive imbalance of the game? I tell you, it will make kill rate drop by at least several percent, if not push away killers. I already started my break, because I tried for 2-3 days to get a fair match, and didn't find 1. All the survivors actually knowing what they're doing makes it a sweat fest no matter what. Before, I'd gotten many 4ks (and many losses) with Demogorgon, Nemesis, Wesker, Knight, Skull Merchant, Alien, Unknown. Couldn't get a single 4k with them in this new MMR. It's not as if I'm playing worse, or am in massive need of learning. It's just that the game is not balanced for killer when you go against survivors of your own skill level. You winning is based upon them making mistakes over and over. Or, thinking about this way, making 2-3 reads back to back at tiles.
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