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At this point killers are just asking for unbreakable basekit
To preface this: I very very rarely play survivor. Im mostly a killer main and have like 90% of my hours on killer.
Today I decided to do some challenges from the archives for survivor and the experience has just been absolutely miserable.
First of all the killers I got were some prestige 100 nurse and blights 8 games in a row, which I already find very weird since I would assume that my survivor MMR is super low since I almost never play survivor and if I do I rarely get out cause I'm not very good. So I would think that I shouldn't go up against prestige 100 S-Tier killers with 6k hours in the game but apparently MMR thinks otherwise.
What I found even more annoying was that 7 out of those 8 killers played the same strat, which is just down everyone, slug them, wait out unbreakables if they even exist and then let everyone bleed out for the rest of the match refusing to hook anyone. I mean my team would have lost anyways since when I checked their profiles most of them were players with like 100-500 hours vs 6k hours killer players. Noone lasted in chases longer than 20 seconds.
Both those things combined, the wonky mmr system and then losing one chase and literally not being able to do anything for 4 minutes just makes for such a miserable experience. No fun to be found.
At this point those killers are honestly just asking the Devs to make unbreakable basekit imO
Comments
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The problem with this is that weak killers need slugging:
I'm by far not a michael myers main, but I won't have ever gotten his adept without slugging 1-2 people at once for a huge chunk of the game. It was rotten fields vs a swf and I'm sure I would have lost without it simply because even with a map with almost nothing to work with AND slugging I was on 1 gen 90%.
I know that this isn't an argument for killers that actually use good perks but even then a pig or myers won't be strong enough to play without slugging if you really want to win, it's just physically impossible if survivors actually know what they are doing and have a okay to good map.
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Yeah I'm all for using strats to achieve a win for both sides but this meta we're heading towards of slugging and bleeding out isnt it. I seen some content creators be the "Villain" running these builds and it's just gonna force unnecessary nerfs to killers who don't play like that and buffs to survivors which the very killers using this new meta are gonna complain about. Shoulder the burden isn't that strong to warrant this level of slugging.
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I mean I have nothing against tactical slugging. I understand that it is necessary and dont mind being slugged for a couple of seconds so the killer can go reload or chase some nearby surv and then comes back and hooks me.
What Ive seen today is a lot of killers just coming into the game with the intention, that they are gonna slug everyone no matter what and that they are gonna let everyone bleed out to not even risk the 4%. I find it especially annoying when its done by highly experienced killers that would have stomped the survs anyways. Most games Ive seen the Survs lose one chase and are then on the ground for 5 minutes which in the end is rewarded with 5k points.
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Who is to blame that the killer's side is preferred only by people who want to win? The rest of the players were driven away by nerfs. It is quite natural that the most persistent with a very unpleasant character will remain on the killer's side in the game. Such killers are used to overcoming difficulties.
The right question would be. Where did the chase killers and 12 hooks go? After all, if the killer is easy to play. Why does the survivor lobby look like an eternal holiday of sad tactics? Why do we get a 100 prestige Nurse who plays as if her life depends on it? Perhaps because the chase killers and 12 hooks simply do not play on the killer's side.
I mean that noble killers are in the minority. Being noble is simply unprofitable. But campers and tunnelers are legion.
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I can only speak from my own experiences but as more of a casual player, I wasn't driven away by nerfs. I've more or less quit playing because of boredom on the killer side. It either felt like I was steam rolling people or every other match someone would dc and it would become a farming simulator. Even the matches that I would consider a loss didn't make me feel stressed out or anything like they use to. It just feels a lot like burnout.
I quit playing survivor because I just simply don't find the survivor role fun anymore. There are too many things that can happen and too much to depend on in this role.
That being said, I was really enjoying 2v8 with my brother. I just can't stand to wait so long in queue. It felt fresh anyway. I don't know how much we won or lost. It just felt chaotic and fun again.
Back on topic. I do understand where people are coming from. Slugging has always had it's moments though. The old silent spirit, starstruck nurse, etc... I think too much stuff has been nerfed for the sake of balance, and a more competitive play, that it's always going to lead to a play style someone doesn't like. It just seems to be on finding which play styles people can tolerate more.
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Just want to through out a quick scenario: If a survivor is downed, and the killer sees another survivor nearby, its smart to try to get an injure or down on the second survivor if they are really out of position. However, sometimes, the first survivor then crawls away to hide so the killer can't hook them
If you crawl away to hide, resulting in the killer being unable to find you, then you do NOT get the privilege of complaining about slugging. You brought that case on yourself3 -
I rarely play against killers who are slugging, so it's a matter of personal experience, but in general, Unbreakable basekit wouldn't be a good idea and they've tried to do that, and it didn't work very well.
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The problem is quite simple. Chase perks on the killer side have gotten nerfed consistently <STBFL> with some never even making it into the game before getting nerfed <coup de grace>. Hook timers got extended literally one hundred and forty seconds <two unique hooks>, vs two hundred and forty <slugging>. Hook perks also continue to get nerfed, <pop, pain resonance, BBQ bp removed>
Sure hooking seems good, till you realize that if you slug only a handful of perks <rarely picked> counter it as a strategy <Unbreakable, exponential, soul guard, wglf, Botany or healing perks>. Whereas hooking can be countered easily basekit <Flashlight save, pallet save, Toolbox> and is punished if survivors have perks to punish it <power struggle, saboteur, Decisive strike, OTR, BT, Babysitter, Guardian, Breakout, Deliverance, wicked, etc.>
All you need to see is how much hooking is punished, sure it can help you tunnel, but if the end result is a death, either way why would you risk it. Also, why the punishment for poor survivor gameplay <basekit unbreakable>, you can always force the killer to pick you up by going into a locker. Survivors can also choose where to die.
Tldr Hooking is significantly more risky than slugging, but survivors can always pick where they can be slugged, even taking just exponential would allow a survivor team to comeback or going into a locker would force them to pick you up. Still, I would be in favor of a faster bleed out that would allow players slugged for fifty seconds to bleedout faster.
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This could also be a reason. You can always burn out.
I'm more guided by the principle that the surviving side is interested in having fun. While the killers are focused on winning.
The main thing here is who ultimately remains on the killer's side? Apparently only people who think about winning and killing. Only this type of player still finds DBD fun on the killer's side.
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The problem with this is that weak killers need slugging.
Dude he just said he went against 8 Blights/Nurses in a row… and actually no, most of the time killers don't really need slugging to win a game.
Post edited by Jacknalls_Paw on13 -
Bleeding out as a gameplan is something I'm also not a fan of, but I wouldn't know how to fix this without destroying normal slugging.
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If you play a weak killer on a map that actually has loops and the survivors are capable of using their brain: yes you do, you won't win with pig or michael otherwise.
And thank you for the completely useless sentence with blight and nurse: if you would read my comment right you'd see that I said that that's the problem with making unbreakable basekit, I never said that he played against weak killers or even thought that. I agree that it's really evil to slug and bleed out everyone in that case, but that doesn't mean that we have to kill any preassure a weak killer can have.
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7/8 Blights in a row who all play the exact same...this must be mildly exaggerated.
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Basekit Unbreakable would a terrible idea.
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I saw a video a lot of people saw about a current and incoming increase slugging as part of a new slugging meta.
Honestly, I have not seen this at all beyond margin of error occurrences. Some killers are sluggy but no more than usual for me, though I am not saying maybe it is happening more in other regions or something, I am just not experiencing it.
FYI: I play OCE and west coast NA, sometimes I go to Singapore servers too
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Your always trying to twist things around, if you get GREEDY and slug a person to try injure and down another instead of hooking the first person you downed, then the slugged one has the right to waste your time as you wasted theirs.
Your literally saying the person the person you down first should wait there for you to try get another person and create free snow balling lol?
I swear killer mains do any and everything to justify their rotten play style yet have an audacity to find a way to make it seem the survivor is at fault always.
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Where did the chase killers and 12 hooks go?
Well… I am still here.
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It's the devs pushing slugging though. They continue to punish killers for hooking every patch as well as punishing defending gens. They even punish defending hooks (but frankly I think that's a good thing). Killers are running out of options other than to slug. With share the burden, winning via hooks just isn't much of an option at higher mmr where you judt get teams all running the perk. Evenly spreading hooks is a sure fire way to lose at high mmr - someone NEEDS to be eliminated before you start getting into the endgame. If all gens are done and no one is eliminated, it's going to be a loss. Now you can guarantee that happening at higher mmr as a survivor team. Hooking is getting less and less appealing.
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The last hero who stands guard over the survivors' fun ;)
Too bad you can't save all the survivors from the fate of camping, tunneling and slugging. Our legion is much larger.
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Oh, they can move and try to hide if they want, but if the killer cant find them afterword, they lose the right to complain.
Sometimes hooking right away isn't the smart move. Thats not opinion, thats just a fact3 -
It won't happen lol they already tried the base kit unbreakable and it lead to survivors abusing it by not allowing killers to hook or bleed people out which was actually taking the game hostage. So the choice is endure 4min bleed out which is a legit method of killing survivors and considered perfectly fine to do or allow survivors to take the game hostage by prolonging it indefinitely which is something they are not allowed to do. Pretty clear what the better option is that's why base kit unbreakable was never implemented after it was trialed
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Haha, I'm sad to report this sacred duty of mine is not being appreciated.
The amount of toxicity I've gotten in the past few days due to playing Skull Merchant is unreal.
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Deer stalker easy fix.
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I've been back and forth over a weaker deerstalker being basekit for killers. It's be nice, but it also feels like hand holding
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How can you say that bleeding survivors out is a legit method of killing when doing so won't let you complete daily rituals or adept achievements, and your match result ranking drops a rank for each survivor you do it to?
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It's funny cause slugging hasn't gotten better or worse, it's just that since people are losing despite brainless tunneling they finally realize slugging is another strat to use.
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Daily rituals? What? I'm amazed people who care about that exist. Adept achievements? You do that once, big deal. Are those really your arguments?
Here's mine: You're the killer. You kill. The end.
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Maybe if the devs stopped punishing killers for hooking survivors by giving survivors tons of perks that work off of being unhooked, or hooks, and stopped nerfing killer perks that encourage them to go for hooks, hooks might actually be useful again.
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Honestly, I could agree with this to an extent. I can say that I usually tried harder to win as survivor. Not because I wanted to win but because I didn't want to cause my teammates to lose.
Basekit unbreakable might be more fun for the survivor role but it could possibly ruin the killer side. There are some instances where I hate slugging but there's many times it is either the best or only play to be made.
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there are way more healthy ways to fight intentional bleeding out and we choose to...reward survivors for that? You could literally invent a give up vote or faster bleedout timer, and yet somehow basekit UB is the "best option"?
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Because bleeding someone out is not a reportable offence. It's no different to a hatch, it doesn't count towards escape rates yet it's considered an escape by survivors. But the goal of slugging is to slug everyone then hook them.... If a survivor wants to crawl away and hide somewhere to prevent being hooked or Mori they can but they will meet their demise regardless so as far as I'm concerned a kill is a kill regardless of if it's on hook, bleed out or mori
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I must be the luckiest man alive, because I've never played against back to back killers who slugged. I think that's the exception, not the rule. That, or mismatches are still happening. Because if your teams are as casual as I'm detecting, you shouldn't be getting killers like that.
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“Maybe if the devs stopped punishing killers for hooking survivors by giving survivors tons of perks that work off of being unhooked”
There are people in this exact thread that admit they tunnel at 5 gens. Blame people like them for it
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Don't you think it would be great if the game was balanced around hooks instead of kills? And that tunneling and camping were not just "discouraged" but actively impossible to do from a gameplay standpoint? Would be so much more fun for both sides.
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I think the game would be better if we didn’t have toxic survivors and toxic killers
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Every game has toxic players. But the problem is you are conflating "toxic player" with someone who uses a strategy you don't like. The only one to blame there is the devs.
If a strategy is so effective, that it is going to give you the win more often than not, and it is hard to counter, and you are trying to play the game to win, then you would be a fool to not use that strategy. The devs are the ones to blame for allowing the unfun strategy to exist, no the players using it.
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Maybe if things like FTP+BU or BGP didn't happen, people wouldn't realize that slugging as a side objective is so strong especially with all the disincentives of hooking.
It was pretty obvious that we were headed into a slug meta months ago but the devs refused to incentivize hooks. If the devs dont encourage healthy gameplay then is it any surprise the playerbase wouldn't play for hooks?
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You ignored the part about the killer match result ranking dropping. The devs clearly stated that all kills will raise the killer match result ranking, all the way to merciless killer. Bleeding out a survivor drops it, so bleed outs aren't kills according to the game. The killer is taking no action to actively kill a survivor, so the timer is what ends up causing the survivor to die, not the killer.
This is a basic concept of the game, taught in the tutorial, and even a little picture example on the loading screen for a killer's first few matches. A killer isn't going to win if they can't grasp the basic concepts and objectives of the game.
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Why should we care about a rank that we don't even see? What difference does it make whether you get 4 hooks or 12 hooks.
When the surviving side accepts the fact that the only people left on the killing side are those who want to kill you. The survivors will immediately feel better. Because we can finally move in the direction of how to make it more pleasant for the survivor to die at the hands of the killer. I'm talking about chases and 12 hooks. Otherwise, the killers will look for ways to kill you themselves. As you can see, it gets worse and worse each time. The method of killing becomes more and more sophisticated.
Here is one of my test games to find the perfect slug build. As you can see, all the survivors got their hook, but one for each. What difference does it make that it was a slug of 4 survivors if in the end everyone got their hooks? Even the argument that killers get fewer blood points seems insignificant. Although killers don't care about blood points, for some reason the survivors remember this.
I have many such shots in my collection, I can share them if needed.
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Match result? What? Are you trying to compete on some invisible leader board or something?
Your gymnastics to try to paint a killer killing as "not a kill" are amazing. Do words mean different things where you come from? Or is this an issue with English proficiency (or lack thereof)?
You're the killer. You kill. A killer is going to win if they kill survivors. It doesn't matter if entitled people decide that, even though the killer killed them all, the killer still lost because he killed by means that they dislike. Talk about entitlement lol.
Call me when they change the "killer" name to "hooker" (no pun intended) and then we can have this conversation again.
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On the match result screen, THE GAME tells you that bleeding out is not a kill, not me. You should learn to read and understand what the game is actually telling you instead of making up your own bullshit. Don't forget, you aren't really a killer, you are a video game player, and that video game has rules to win like any normal game does.
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When all the so-called "cheap tactics" are gone, and enough Survivors win and get hardstuck up with the super uber strong Killers and can't play against anyone else, then you will all realize how necessary these unfun tactics were.
And that's the Devs' fault for designing the game that way. NOT the players' fault for playing like that.
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You are now harassing me, following me all across these forums just to reply and call me a Killer Main. I currently play 70/30 Surv to Killer as I'm going for adepts. If anyone's biased, and weirdly obsessed with me, it's you, deBecker.
Stop. I will not ask again.
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This is true, which is why I hate bleeding people out. I'd rather just hook.
Sometimes, Survivors don't want me to do that and force me to leave them down for a little bit, then prematurely assume I am slugging and DC.
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So when you queued as survivor and faced that over and over again… did you have fun? Did you enjoy your matches? How strongly were your compulsions to just go next?
It’s interesting when a killer main steps into the shoes of survivors and learns just how horrid this game really can be for survivors.
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How would it be possible to make tunneling impossible without having serious balance problems by telling 1 survivor "You are untouchable"?
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By embracing what this game has become.
The game was originally designed around being a game of hide and seek, which is clear from how people originally played it. Eventually, it turned into a game of freeze tag, which is what we have today. The problem is that the "freeze" part of the freeze tag, is a bit unfair. The freeze part doesn't last long enough, and when you get "unfrozen" you have to hop on one leg for 30 seconds before you can actually run away properly again, meanwhile you are able to get frozen again.
So basically, my suggestion would be a "time out" when you get unhoked. A guaranteed timeout of some set amount of time, where, you get unhooked, maybe for 30 seconds or 45 seconds. The time doesn't matter too much, that can easily be tweaked, but the general idea is that you can't do anything, as a survivor, you can't work a gen, you can't heal, you can't progress the game. But, in return, you also are immune from anything the killer does, and completely invisible to them, so they don't even know where you are.
After this timeout period, you automatically get fully healed, and are back in the game.
So, yes, you tell that 1 survivor "You are untouchable" but also "you don't get to progress the game for a bit".
I'd also probably couple this with survivors sharing the 1st hook state. That way the earliest you could kill someone from the game is at the 6th hook. Which should be well into the game at that point.
This would be the "simple" fix that they could do, but honestly i think the entire game should be reworked from kills and escapes, to creating a "hope" meter, that is filled by the killer. The survivors still do what they do to attempt to escape, but instead of the killer "killing" the survivors, their ultimate goal is to fill up that meter by doing various actions like hitting survivors, downing them, etc and then if it fills up the entity kills the survivors, meanwhile the survivors goal is to escape before that meter is filled.
That would be much more lore accurate anyway as it is the entire point of the game. It is why the game rewards you so little for camping in terms of bloodpoints.
Ironically i think the old system we had of the different emblem categories did it better than the one we had now, The problem was people still tied kills/escapes to winning and losing rather than pips, which is how it should have been seen. That sort of thing showcases more skill from both sides, because you can't just "gen rush" or "hard tunnel/camp" someone out, otherwise you don't pip.
But anyway, such a rework would likely never happen because its too risky, so the first change would probably be the simpler one to implement that doesn't change the core game too much.
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There is no reason why Unbreakable isn't base kit, and I'm a Killer main!
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sure let's add something potentially broken for the survivors… BT basekit, haste (10%) for 10 seconds and mini deliverance if the killer is camping aren't enough i guess instead of fixing the issues of having an AWFUL matchmaking and having outdated mechanics that need to be modified…
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Hmm, so sort of like getting transported to the void (halloween event), but you have to perform some sort of objective while there to get pulled back into the "real world"? I'd imagine there would be a 30 second time limit in there to keep survivors from staying in there indefinitely…and the whole mechanic would disable once the exit gates are powered.
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