Will there be Shoulder The Burden changes in hotfix 2?
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There are some streamers who are hyping the Perk up, being the next MfT. And granted, if going against very, very good Survivors, it might indeed be really strong, but it still applies what I have written before - most people dont encounter those teams (and people who think they do are just worse than they think they are…).The funny thing is among even the edited youtube videos I've seen on this perk the value has been rare as the streamers hyped it.
Streamers hyping a perk is pretty common. Resurgence, Hope, Background Player, Power of Two, We're Gonna Live Forever, etc. all have had their 'look at me get valuewith this perk' window.
Shoulder the Burden isn't bad, it can get value, but I really have difficulty seeing the perk as broken.
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The perk doesn't force you to go 2-2-2-2, but it still forces you to go 1-1-1-1, which will be a massive problem against good survivors. So still the point remains, this is not an anti-tunneling perk, it affects anyone who doesn't go for 1-1-1-1.
(btw you're damn quick, because I edited the 2-2-2-2 → 1-1-1-1 literally 1 minute after I wrote the post you quoted).
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Thank you for the response. Just for some feedback, I stopped playing many of the M2 killers, because they don't have a good chance of hitting an exposed survivor with an M1 attack, in the short amount of time they are exposed from Shoulder The Burden.
I don't like feeling like I'm being punished for playing M2 killers, but here we are.
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Two things though: Firstly, it would require the right person to bring the perk, because if you hook an StB user first, the perk is effectively rendered useless for them, unless all four have it, but in that case, it's four StBs, as opposed to perks that could cost you way more time in chase or gens.
Secondly: It's a survivor perk. Just because a perk is better against tunnelling killers doesn't mean we need to go through it with a fine-toothed comb to conceive of every possible scenario where a non-tunnelling killer might be hindered by the perk and immediately cry foul. A survivor perk is supposed to benefit survivors.
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Two things though: Firstly, it would require the right person to bring the perk, because if you hook an StB user first, the perk is effectively rendered useless for them, unless all four have it, but in that case, it's four StBs, as opposed to perks that could cost you way more time in chase or gens.
In solo yes you will have to bring the perk 4 times to get guaranteed value. In SWFs you only need 1 or 2 because the designated rescuer can hide and coordinate who goes for the unhook. We already see that playstyle work successfully with Deliverance, and Deliverance is already considered extremely strong in tournaments. STB will be like Deliverance, but now even more powerful for SWFs, and even worse for solos.
The problem is not just that the perk is extremely strong, but that it widens the SWF - solo gap. I don't understand why solo survivors defend this perk. For every time where you successfully use it, there will be a situation where one of your teammates throws the game with it. Meanwhile this perk will make high-MMR SWFs so much stronger that the killrate will decrease and BHVR will buff killers to compensate. It is not good for the game no matter how you look at it.
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In solo yes you will have to bring the perk 4 times to get guaranteed value. In SWFs you only need 1 or 2 because the designated rescuer can hide and coordinate who goes for the unhook.
That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean this plan actually succeeds. Keep in mind that they'd need to hide until someone else is on death hook, and they can't participate normally until they are. This is different from Deliverance, which will be viable the moment someone else becomes the first hook target. This means as soon as someone else gets targeted by the killer, the deliverance user can safely engage with the game, which isn't the case with StB. They have to wait until someone else is on 2 hooks in order to get value.
The problem is not just that the perk is extremely strong, but that it widens the SWF - solo gap. I don't understand why solo survivors defend this perk. For every time where you successfully use it, there will be a situation where one of your teammates throws the game with it. Meanwhile this perk will make high-MMR SWFs so much stronger that the killrate will decrease and BHVR will buff killers to compensate. It is not good for the game no matter how you look at it.
The reason it's getting defended is because it is an effective way to combat tunnelling, which has been an issue for as long as DBD has existed and has been ignored for all that time. DS was a decent band-aid for the longest time but got axed for no reason, and people are excited that there's something new on the block to deal with the issue.
Over DBD's entire lifespan, it's been DS, 6.1's OTR, and this, as solutions to one of the most long-standing problems the game has.
Keep in mind as well that tunnelling is not just a matter of balance, either. Some folks may not even care if they lose the match, so long as they got to play it, instead of getting tunnelled out from start to death hook straight away.
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We'll just agree to disagree.
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So you aren't going to fix the bug that makes it so the exposed part of the perk just doesn't function?
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Or not at all. Twisted logic as always.
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Bug fixes always happen - I was referring to design changes to the perk itself.
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This is a horror themed game, why should the kill rate be any lower in a game where Killers are meant to be threatening?
The Devs aren't changing it. Time to let it go.
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Then at least show Killers hookstages, and create some perks that help against this perk. Or better yet, finally nerf toolboxes so gen speeds are consistent so Killers like Ghostface can play around this perk.
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Theming and fairness are two separate things. Killers can handle a knock.
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60/40 is fair because this is an assym gane. The 1 must be stronger than the four or it's imbalanced.
I'm not going to keep arguing this, it's clear from every response you give to anything here, you just want busted Survivor perks back and a 60% escape rate.
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A 60/40 winrate split is, by definition, imbalanced. That's literally what 'imbalanced' means, my guy.
I'm not going to keep arguing this, it's clear from every response you give to anything here, you just want busted Survivor perks back and a 60% escape rate.
I stated this elsewhere too, but I've probably put forth more killer buff suggestions than most folks here.
I just have the gall to tell killers 'no' sometimes.
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Nah, you're a Survivor Main I reckon. I don't take the opinions of one-side-only mains like you seriously, nobody should, thank goodness you don't balance the game.
If I'm wrong, correct me: How much do you play Killer, and who do you play when you do? Is it anyone below an A tier?
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And the true colors come out, this old chestnut of "oh you're just a Killer Main".
Brother I play 70% Survivor, I just happen to PREFER Killer when I have the time. Here is my Dead By Stats Link:
https://deadbystats.eu/profile/actuallynyarlathotep
Please try again and stop assuming.
Post edited by BoxGhost on0 -
It's about 50/50 with my favourite killer being the Dredge. I like his map mobility a lot.
Am I approved to have an opinion now, great arbiter?
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Your responses certainly don't seem to indicate you're not a Survivor Main, but maybe I'm wrong there. You certainly seem to have a Survivor bias in every post I see from you.
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so...how about some plans to actually make hooking/spreading hooks appealing again then? The whole purpose of those has been killed long ago, and StB is just stomping on their dead bodies atm
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It couldn't possibly be that the folks I argue with are the biased ones, of course.
Tell me, bud, what are my most 'survivor bias' takes?
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I'm not defending tunneling at all, if anything I wish BHVR would nuke tunneling for good.
The problem is, they are nuking tunneling ONLY for a small fraction of the playerbase, and that's the part of the playerbase who doesn't need it.
It is understandable you and others are happy to see BHVR do something "anti-tunneling" on the surface, but in reality, this perk won't be what you hope for.
For solos in particular, I'm almost certain that DS will still be superior. And DS hasn't prevented tunneling.
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So is TCM, Evil Dead, so was Evolve, so was Death Garden. What’s your point? DBD is a game pitting people against people, not people against AI.
They’ll change it & I’ll never let it go.
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I've always said, don't rely on cherry picked YouTube videos. Go and watch the live stream. With STB in particular, there was rarely any value to be had. I watched a number of streamers on Twitch using it and the end result is I haven't used it once lol was not sold on it at all. One streamer, playing solo, started telling his team mates in pre-game chat that he had STB in the hopes they'd let him get the unhooks. I'm guessing so he'd have clips for his YouTube video. He wasn't getting much use out of it.
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STB is the healthiest perk since OTR buff be serious for a minute
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I highly doubt it's going back to 50/50 because the Devs have SAID they don't want 50/50.
It won't change, I'm sorry.
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Just want to chime in here, it doesn't matter what you play more of when talking about what role you "main." I used to make this mistake too.
An assertion that someone is a killer or survivor main is an assertion on what their favorite role is to play - not which role they play more of. You saying you prefer killer is the evidence you are a killer main, just like me saying I prefer survivor is evidence I am a survivor main (despite the fact that I've been playing more killer than survivor recently). A fairly well-known streamer I know has changed from a survivor to killer main because he finds killer more enjoyable, but he still mainly plays survivor on stream because that's what his audience knows him for and expects from him. You get it.
Also, I disagree with the person who was arguing with you - I don't think that someone being a killer or a survivor main necessarily means that they're biased. I, as a survivor main, was very vocal for a long time about thinking Distortion should only recharge in chase, for instance, and I've advocated for many killer-related buffs over my time here.
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…"Always happens" is a very interesting statement. The above bug report, that I placed in May 2023, has been Under Review since December 2023. That is 1 full year of being Under Review.
Which means that aim dressing has been still stealing hits from the killer, for at least one and a half years.
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Not unlike "gen-defense is fine, as long as I can gen rush through it". There is a difference between the perk being anti tunnel and it being overturned above everything else.
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If gen defense is capable of completely halting or undoing gen progress, then it leaves literally zero ways to win for the survivors since those those gens do need to be done.
Tunnelling is not the only way to win.
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Your bot getting punished for playing an M2 - oriented killer. Your (sometimes) getting punished for going after the same people over and over again. This is also called tunneling :)
Most M2 oriented killers can still m1 as much as M2 killers. Wesker, Blight, Artist, Pyramid head and Oni are all very much capable of playing m1 as Pig or Freddy are.
From what I've seen in regular matches it's really not much of a deal. Most people don't even run it tbh.
From how I see it, the perk will be extremely strong on your comp group in private games and decent in a regular public lobby.
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And this is the biggest problem here. You're basically telling me this perk isn't a problem because you personally don't see it as a problem in the games you personally are in.
That isn't helpful. I'm seeing many games where multiple survivors are using this perk, and are they stacking and daisy chaining this perk. And these are public games.
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But are they getting value, and is the killer counterplaying it?
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Same question
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Are you saying that absolutely everything in this entire game, that gives value and has counterplay, is 100% acceptable and good for the game?
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Not everything, no. Anti - tunneling for the most part is. Therefore my question:
Are you telling me that anti-tunnel is bad for the game?
Edit: shoulder the burden is a defensive perk. Not an offencive perk as ds was. I see nothing wrong with that in public lobbies.
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If there was a perk that said "if a killer hooks the same survivor twice in a row, the killer gets stunned for 300 seconds", would you think that would be bad for the game?
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Yes, I do. Why? The execution of the perk. Again, it's about how the perk is designed. Old ds was bad because it could be used offencively. That got removed as well.
Just to mention, because you still haven't answered @Firellius question yet.
Do the survivors get value and does the killer counterplay it?
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It also kicks nice killers in the gut who don't camp hooks. They can't even take advantage of the exposed status since they arent near the hook camping it.
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If they play "nice" , they usually don't tunnel someone. This results in the perk giving almost no value.
They don't need to get the exposed down. They more likely than not didn't lose anything.
This doesn't harm "nice" killers.
As a Pig main, I could not care less about this perk.
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Because it means both questions are invalid.
In the case of Shoulder The Burden, the problem isn't the fact that it's anti-tunnel. The problem is that many killers can't properly leverage the downside of the perk, and the perk gives too much value when multiple survivors are running the perk and are stacking or daisy chaining the perk.
Also, I never said the perk should be removed from the game. My suggestion for having the perk inflict broken instead of exposed, just makes the counterplay more fair for the low mobility M2 killers. The perk is supposed to have a downside that can be leveraged by killers, and exposed isn't a fair counterplay for all the killers in the game.
And in the case of the "does it bring value" question, that is a completely invalid question, because there are many things on the killer side that brings value and has counterplay, yet many people still think it's unfair for survivors. The current Thrill of the hunt brings value to killers, and has counterplay for the survivor.
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How does it kick them in the gut? Those killers dont lose out on anything against StB.
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This isn't true, though. It affects all killers - tunnelers or not. This allows survivors to force the killer to have evenly spread hooks throughout the match. If you have evenly spread hooks throughout the match and you get into the endgame, as an m1 killer, that's essentially a loss unless the survivors are throwing. M1 killers cant afford to have zero kills during the endgame - even a single kill at that point can mean an easy 3 survivors out. Before STB, a non tunneling killer could at least cycle between 2 or 3 survivors and get someone eliminated by the middle of the match. Now survivors can pretty much guarantee no one is eliminated by the time the 5th gen is done (at least vs m1 killers and assuming thr survivors are at least have competent).
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DeBecker, quotes are broken at the moment, but this is a response to you.
STB is incredibly strong, so strong that it has to come with a downside. However, killers who DO NOT proxy camp cant take advantage of that downside, so it's just sheer power against fair killers.
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That's fair and I shouldn't have even gone there, I know it really doesn't matter. But this person and their friends have been literally following me around the forums to complain every time I post, I was testy. I've blocked them now so it doesn't matter, but still.
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In the case of Shoulder The Burden, the problem isn't the fact that it's anti-tunnel. The problem is that many killers can't properly leverage the downside of the perk, and the perk gives too much value when multiple survivors are running the perk and are stacking or daisy chaining the perk.
But are they getting value out of it? Because, for one thing, daisy-chaining the perk does not provide -any- value. It just moves hookstates around.
Also, I never said the perk should be removed from the game. My suggestion for having the perk inflict broken instead of exposed, just makes the counterplay more fair for the low mobility M2 killers. The perk is supposed to have a downside that can be leveraged by killers, and exposed isn't a fair counterplay for all the killers in the game.
M2s are M2 for a reason. Most of them have the ability to pressure survivors at much greater range or can much more easily return to hook. If they also got one-hit downs off of their powers, they'd be benefitting considerably more than M1 killers.
And M2s tend to not need the extra help.
And in the case of the "does it bring value" question, that is a completely invalid question, because there are many things on the killer side that brings value and has counterplay, yet many people still think it's unfair for survivors. The current Thrill of the hunt brings value to killers, and has counterplay for the survivor.
If you want to assert that a perk is overtuned, unfair, or needs nerfs, you better make sure that the perk does actually bring value. Value that is relatively consistent, value that cannot be blamed on the killer for enabling. Hence the questions: "Did they get value, and did the killer counterplay it?"
A perk simply being used is not grounds for a nerf. We need more to go off of.
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Others have responded, but a couple of things I noticed.
The problem is that many killersAs a balance issue though, when a survivor chooses a perk they don't know the killer they are going to face. Like healing perks face the risk of hitting a Plague. Even if StB is more useful against certain killers, the survivors don't know who they are going to face when selecting the perk.
the perk gives too much value when multiple survivors are running the perk and are stacking or daisy chaining the perk.I keep hearing this, but don't see how it is true. The survivors have to run four perk slots to do this (or have survivors hiding out or intentionally trying to draw chase, both of which have their downsides). Even if they are getting some value, that's a lot of perk slots to get the value.
And in the case of the "does it bring value" question, that is a completely invalid question, because there are many things on the killer side that brings value and has counterplay, yet many people still think it's unfair for survivors.With thrill its fairly straightforward to explain the value level the perk brings (how long it extends the time), the danger (an interrupt resets the progress entirely), the combinations it brings, and why this creates a problem.
There's also the game enjoyment issue, which is more subjective, but still relevant.
I'm trying to see the same problem here for StB, but it just doesn't seem to be true.
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Assuming everyone runs the perk and coordinates the spreading of, and this is the thing: the first hookstages.
If someone that already has a hookstage takes the one of a survivor that has two, guess what. They will have two hookstages. Just get this person then. They are exposed AND show that they have one more hookstage.
The scenario your describing isn't as realistic as you make it seem to be, sorry.
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Assuming everyone runs the perk, it has a good chance of guaranteeing that the first survivor will be sacrificed on the 6th hook at the earliest.
Let's pick the most extreme scenario, where the first 4 hooks are on separate survivors, and no one uses Shoulder The Burden. That still means the first survivor will be sacrificed on the 6th hook at the earliest. This means the killer is still at a very bad game disadvantage, because 4 survivors are still alive at the 5th hook. This isn't good for the killer. This isn't the killer "outplaying the perk ".
In fact, we could go through every possible combination of hook states, and the perk still has a decent chance of forcing a 1-1-1-1 spread of hook states, because as long as one survivor has zero hook states, they can use the perk on someone else… and the only way to stop all the survivors from having zero hook states, is to hook each of them once.
Remember that the ultimate goal of the survivors using this perk is to spread hook states, and it doesn't matter how many of the survivors actually get to use the perk, as long as that goal is achieved.
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There are 7 generators in the match and you only need to repair 5 of them. Let's say Dead Man's Switch now blocks a gen for 80 seconds (Off the Record's time) everyone would be complaining about that, even though I could just say "do another gen".
Also, out of the 4 survivors, the killer needs to kill 3 of them to win, preferably all 4. So yeah, anti tunnel halting the killer's objective is just as problematic as of Pop Goes the Weasel now does 100% gen regression to a gen.
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