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BHVR, please stop making BS perks that get absurd value with no counterplay.
I'm so tired of the BS perks that killers constantly have to worry about whether or not they're even being used. Back before this trend started, if you downed someone on a pallet, you just had to glance around and listen a bit to see if anyone is nearby, and maybe somebody would be hiding further with sprint burst to surprise you once in a blue moon. Now, you have to worry about Light-Footed, Background Player, Dramaturgy, etc. Not to mention if the downed survivor has a power struggle build, then it's an automatic lose-lose and you get nothing. Either you pick up right away and they get rescued, or you wait even a few seconds and they can save themself for free. And slugging also does nothing because they most likely have a way to pick themself up if they're running power struggle, and even if they don't someone else will come do it in three seconds.
Then there's the silent flashbangs around corners (I'm aware it's a bug, that doesn't make it less BS.) so survivors can escape chase for free by pressing one button at the right time or save a carried survivor without having to try at all. Doing 40% of a gen and then getting in a locker for 2 seconds doesn't count as a side quest worthy of getting a powerful effect.
Now looking at killer perks, there are quite a few that kind of just break the game. For one, new Thrill of The Hunt is completely absurd. I recently played survivor against it and one of my teammates finished a generator solo before I finished the totem. Only for that to be the wrong totem. Cool, I spent almost a full minute cleansing nothing.
I also am not a big fan of Coup de Grace even though it usually flies under the radar. I think people ignore the fact that one quick down can change the outcome of an entire game, and Coup makes that much easier. There's also no way to tell a killer has it until they use it, and at that point it's a little late, because they already got that potentially crucial early hit. There's too many perks like this on both sides that have way too much power and are easy to underestimate. Thankfully MFT got nerfed quite a while ago, but it wasn't exactly unique.
Now we have All-Shaking Thunder which STACKS WITH COUP in case you didn't know, and provides basically the same effect as Coup does. Some windows were already useless (like the one that can spawn on Ormond right above the bar window, where if you're injured when you reach the top window you just die unless you have balanced landing or a good chunk of distance since you can't vault the bottom one fast enough, and the Garden of Joy main building window that just drops you in a dead zone) and now those kinds of windows are even more useless because now if the killer just has a specific perk it doesn't matter if you have distance there since they can just get a massive lunge instantly and catch up with no issue.
Comments
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... should we go in depth for this or would you prefer the simple answer?
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@Rulebreaker I don't really understand your question, but I would appreciate any insight.
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Just adding a note, all shaking thunder announces itself. No one is getting surprised by it.
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I get your point that it's typically only going to be a surprise once, but some maps have enough verticality that at some point you're going to have to deal with it anyway, and knowing ahead of time doesn't mean it won't hit you if you're already in a bad spot.
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Unfortunately, I think you're right and the reality is just that half of the perks in the game are not very well designed.
But the perks in question are mostly not meta, so I wouldn't say it is that huge of a deal. They are frustrating to deal with and offer little counterplay once they are set up, but the set up often requires the player to soft-throw the game. For example, Flip Flop even when uncounterable, still involves 2-3 survivors not doing gens and giving health states for free, even if you can't hook them.
If DBD was my game, I would remove half the perks in the game, no joke. But this is obviously not something that BHVR can do, so for the time being, I agree that it's an issue, but not an important one. The best we can hope for is for BHVR to realize there are some types of perks like Coup or Boil Over which are just not healthy for the game without necessarily being strong.
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Thanks for pointing out that they're mostly off-meta, I should have mentioned that. I get that BHVR can't just nuke things, I'm just choosing to ignore that fact :/
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Coup de Grace really? You know it's token based perk where you have to lose a gen to gain tokens? You also lose the token if you miss or could of gotten the hit with a normal lunge.
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I think the issue is the opposite: Most perks are completely fine, it's just a handful of meta perks that blow all the others out of the water so hard, there's no point in using the others.
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Meh. I have yet to see an interesting use of Boil Over or Knockout, for example.
Half the perks in the game have just very boring effects like "get subtle +2% speed boost suddenly without the other side knowing" or "get +3% gen speed" or "trigger something that is impossible to coordinate in solo queue and extremely exploitable for SWFs". You wouldn't use these perks even if they were OP because they don't feel impactful or rewarding to use.
In contrast the current meta perks like Pain Res or WoO feel strong AND still not particularly annoying to play against. I'd much rather play against windows than Boil Over, for example, even though the latter is pretty garbage.
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In-depth it is.
So many of the things we see listed have either counterplay, counter picks, do one niche thing or have a metaphorical "price tag" for it (we leave out BS because that's subjective...but also we disagree with what you're calling bs). BG player and Dramaturgy are both affected by exhaustion, Lightfooted is countered by aura reading (or any tracking really) or having eyes on the survivor with injury disabling it. Thrill isn't that bad (bar teammates running around whoever is trying to break the totems) and there's counterforce plus a handful of perks that involve interacting with totems to make it worth something. Coup and thunder can be parried by dh (wonder if balanced landing beats thunder...) and have a price attached. Flashbang has counters in lightborn and looking at walls, same as flashlight. It's more like 40% of a gen to create a chance to blind a killer as it's not guaranteed but that's us being picky. Now we are aware that lightborn technically falls into "uncountable" but it only does something under a specific condition like Thunder above (which is dropping from a height), which is if someone tries blinding the killer. The "absurd value" comes with conditions and loopholes.
What we also see is complaints about builds such as the power struggle or BG player/flashbang builds. Everyone has builds they hate so no judgement but these builds also have conditions attached and require dedicating your build for it. If conditions don't meet or if a counter pick or plat happened, dead in the water without a paddle.
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It shouldn't be a surprise at all is what I'm saying. It literally announces its activation. You get a sound queue to let you know "the killer has super lunge for the next 15 seconds".
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Sounds like you have a problem with swfs and not survivor "bs" perks
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So you complain about OP survivor stuff, some of which isn't even common (although Power Struggle was made for SWF to abuse), but then call Thrill and All-Shaking Thunder OP? Don't you see how that's kind of counter to your own logic?
It's obvious how silent, through-walls flashbangs and SWF Power Struggle plays have no counterplay. But Thrill does have counterplay. You break the totems, or if the killer keeps interrupting/guarding them, don't do them. You'll gen rush them before they're even able to use those perks. And enough with the "waste totem cleansing" talk. If you do a dull totem against Thrill, it would still be worth something, because it was an uninterrupted cleanse and the next totems with he cleansed faster (thus harder to protect).
And Thunder, I've never even heard be called OP before now. You're talking about windows which, unless you had Balanced, you shouldn't have been using in the first place because they're likely to give the killer a free hit. There's some maps where a killer almost can't use that perk, but even on the ones where they can, you can see them use it once and then be ready for it next time. Don't use those fall zones, or if you have to and the killer follows, you play safe at loops to counter the extended lunge.
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But Thrill does have counterplay. You break the totems, or if the killer keeps interrupting/guarding them, don't do them. You'll gen rush them before they're even able to use those perks. And enough with the "waste totem cleansing" talk. If you do a dull totem against Thrill, it would still be worth something, because it was an uninterrupted cleanse and the next totems with he cleansed faster (thus harder to protect).
None of that is counterplay. Just letting it stand and protect whatever other hex the killer has up their sleeve is not counterplay, and doing totems is countered by TotH itself. You can break it, sure, but it's similar to how doing all five totems isn't a counterplay to NOED: The slowdown induced by the counterplay simply changes the function of the perk, but not its impact. Either you die to Devour Hope being protected by TotH, or you waste so much time getting rid of TotH that you die because you don't have enough time left to do gens.
TotH is just unreasonable at the moment and it is going to get nerfed.
As for the OP: Rampant hook denial is, IMO, one of the biggest issues for killers at the moment and there really needs to be some built-in counter to it that has some more consistency, to cut back on bully squads and overstacking of anti-hook. I've suggested before that killers should grow resistant to stuns and blinds while carrying survivors with each time they are made to drop a survivor, with the effect resetting whenever a survivor is hooked.
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I tried explaining that to him….
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What I meant was that the sound cue doesn't really help the first time when you're about to get slapped. Yes, once you've heard it, you know going onto high ground is a bad idea. I was trying to explain that "it's only a surprise once" because until it's used you don't know that as soon as you drop from high ground you're going to be in big danger. Yes, sometimes this is mitigated if you have enough distance, but there's several situations in which you'd normally be safe unless this one specific perk is in play, which you can't know because it doesn't alert you until the killer drops. And in many cases once that happens you may already be screwed. So yes, it is a surprise once.
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You can say the same thing about MOST chase perks that don't openly tell you they're in play until AFTER the damage is done. Often times unless it happened to YOU, it'll be a surprise even after it's happened to a teammate unless you're on coms. This one tells everyone on the map it's in play the moment the killer drops from up high. It's effect also isn't really any stronger than other chase perks. While it CAN be used often on SOME maps like The Game, other maps like Greenville have like 2 spots where it can be triggered. You could just bring something more reliable to help you get the hit. I doubt on average people would be able to getmore super lunges from this than from Coup.
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I think we simply disagree on what feels unfair, and that's okay. Some of the perks I chose to mention I consider somewhat "bs" as I previously put it because the counterplay has to be done before the match starts. Yes, you can bring a totem build to counter Thrill. But you don't know what the killer has. You can take that gamble, sure, but if the killer isn't using hexes, you don't have a build anymore. You also mentioned lightborn as a counter for Flashbang. But while you can see flashlights in lobbies, you can't see a flashbang in the lobby. I'm literally never going to bring Lightborn in a lobby with no flashlights, because why would I? If there's no foreseeable source of being blinded, I would be gambling a perk slot on a very small chance that someone has one of 2 survivor perks that can blind the killer without a flashlight or is going to search a chest for a flashlight. Sure, if there's 3 flashlights and a TTV, I can assume it's a SWF and bring lightborn if it wouldn't harm my build too much, but part of my point is that some of the "counterplay" to certain perks is just counterpicking which is impossible to do reliably for either side because there is a near complete lack of information before the game. Yes, DH beats Coup and Thunder, but I don't really want to use a perk I already sucked at using before it got sent to the kids table (it's a skill issue that I'm not good with it, but no amount of skill is going to let you use it more than twice unless you have a team doing Shoulder The Burden shenanigans) It's entire a personal opinion but I feel that needing to counterpick in any game is generally bad, and the more counter perks I use, the less of a build I have because I can't fit everything in. If I fill all my slots with perks that counter one specific thing, then every one that isn't used feels like a waste when I could bring a consistent build that I know will always bring good value and help me regardless of the other circumstances.
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1: You mention gambling on a perk. That's a huge part of the game. Each induvial trial is not meant to be balanced, its meant to create a lot of variety. Sometimes the advantage is in your favor, sometimes its not.
Now this can go too far. They've definitely had designs were it felt like if your brought the right perk you auto won, if you didn't bring it you auto loss.
Some people don't like it, but there's a reason the game has lasted as long as it has.
2: This applies to individual chases as well. Things like coup can feel surprising like you had no way to counter them, but each chase isn't meant to be perfect. You now know they have coup and can take it into account.
3: In an assym its extremely difficult to give both sides equal levels of counterplay. You mention the pallets and how hard it is to counter something like background player. Well, before background player, what was the survivor counterplay in that situation? As you mentioned, it was incredibly easy to find the survivors.
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but some maps have enough verticality
And some don't. That is the big thing that makes All-Shaking Thunder unreliable.
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I am not trying to offend anyone, but Coup is fine. I am a P94 Deathslinger main and I only use it because it makes hitting trickshots actually rewarding. Any survivor that complains about a killer perks that gives a benefit, but they lose something crucial is just overreacting…
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I'm on the opposite side of this spectrum. I think less perks should be announced to the other side before they're 'revealed', so to speak. As a survivor, I love when we get to the end game and suddenly BOOM! Killer has NOED. It's surprising, comes out of nowhere, and shakes up the state of the game in a way I wasn't expecting. It's the same with Spirit Fury. It strikes you out of nowhere as soon as you think you have the upper hand, and you then have to figure out how to play around that in future. Flashbangs, DH, Background Player; these are all things that spice up the game in ways that are, at first, unexpected, but once you find out they're in play, then you can figure out how to play around them or even turn them to your advantage. The exception I think is persistent perks like Caulro or old MfT which could be otherwise difficult to identify despite having a constant effect.
That being said, I know I'm an outlier on this, but I think this kind of chaos from both sides makes the game more fun, as opposed to knowing EXACTLY what you're up against from EVERY opponent, EVERY game, EVERY time.
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