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Somebody explain to me how Grim Embrace is not too strong?
What exactly are survivors supposed to do over 40 seconds of no gens? Why would a killer not run a perk like this if they want to win? Say 1 person would be getting chased for the 40 seconds, if the other 3 would be available to do gens, that's 1,333… worth of gen progression lost for the survivors (best case scenario) and there's not a lot survivors can do to prevent this.
*Also I completely forgot about how it can force Dead Man's Switch to activate, I think that's easily the worst part, you'd have to hold off on the gen to guess when the killer would leave the hook far enough for Grim Embrace to activate.
Comments
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You have to hook all 4 survivors once to get the 40 second gen blocking. Spreading hook states to all 4 survivors is just not very efficient since it's far better to focus on 1 or 2 survivors and get an early death.
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It's a good perk, no denying that.
However, I personally find the 40 seconds of gen blocking tends to come a fair bit later in the trial, when progress has already been made on both sides. There's often someone to heal (and always one person to save from the hook for that matter), so resetting can be a good use of that time.
Not to imply it isn't useful, because it is - it's one of the strongest killer perks in the game right now. I just find it's not quite as overbearing as it seems on paper most of the time. A good chunk of the timer is usually used up by resetting health states and the like, leaving only about half of it for the survivor being chased to last while others do totems or something.
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Blocking generator perks are in general weaker than regression generator perks because the survivors don't lose any progress. In case of Grim Embrace, the killer has to hook all four survivors to get the 40 seconds. So if the killer has three stacks, the fourth one can just play really carefully to deny the 40 seconds. This is the main counterplay. There is also the chance that one of the survivor plays really good and is in the end more of a time waste than a time win. During the time of blocked generators, the survivor can use the time to heal or reposition theirself.
The Perk is strong but the killer has to work for it and survivors have counterplay or the option to make the stacks difficult to get.
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If the gens wouldn't have been blocked, there could be a lot of progress done, so in that sense they do lose progress, but I guess trying to avoid being the 4th stack at all costs is the best choice of counterplay as you said.
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The effect is fine if the killer actually spreads hook stages and hooks all 4 survivors without tunneling.
However, the fact that you can tunnel someone out of the match, and THEN use Grim Embrace in a 3v1 to secure a win is a problem. Same thing with Pain Resonance too.
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"why do killers tunnel survivors out?!!"
"why do killers get 1 hook on everybody?!!!"
survivors can't be saved. you guys will always complain.
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the perk is the least oppressive perk in the game. oh no 40 seconds!!! wow. keep using all your second chance perks tho.
dead hard, decisive strike, off the record, deliverance.
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I was using Grim Embrace a little while ago mainly to help proc Dead Man's Switch. I soon realized it was not that worth it to include in my main build, since the fact that you have to hook all survivors once makes the perk somewhat unreliable. To help activate DMS, the 10 seconds of gen blocking whenever you hook a survivor is nice, but it doesn't do much, with Pain Resonance being much better in that regard.
Also, when the perk finally gets 4 stacks, it is measly 40 seconds. If you are not the obsession, just hide, or go for the save on the hooked teammate.
I swear, before this post, I could swear this perk remained active for 60 seconds, not 40. This makes this perk even more worse in my mind lol
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Is there anything survivors WON’T complain about?
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You know it's too strong when it's banned in comp. The amount of Blights I run into who run this perk in builds is incredibly obnoxious.
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I'd rather face Grim Embrace a hundred times than the Knockout slugging build that in total adds up to way more gen delay through picking people up if you have the perks to find them and even more if you don't. Also the killer is way less likely to camp hooks so they get the 12 second delay, and spread hooks to get the full delay, which means they are less likely to camp.
Plus survivors are definitely going to get a chance to use their hook related perks which are completely negated by Knockout slugging.
This isn't a problem perk at present, maybe can be a touch annoying, but nothing compared to what else solo queue survivors have to face right now.
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I thought Grim was going to be too strong when it was introduced, but its fine. Strong, but not overpowered. If the killer is using grim and spreading pressure, use those down times to heal.
If everyone is healed, stealth it out.
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The 40 Second Gen Block was Grim Embraces initial effect, and wasn't considered very strong for a long time until it got the recurring smaller Gen Block beforehand.
It's a powerful perk, just not stellar compared to some of the other slowdown options.
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Say 1 person would be getting chased for the 40 seconds
Since this perk only activates after hooking a survivor and walking a few meters away, it would be a really stupid move for their teammate to immediately take chase as soon as it procs, and they WOULD know the killer has it at that point because it would have activated 3 prior times already, so this is a bad hypothetical that only applies to severely boneheaded survivors.
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In that sense, I agree and I was not accurate with my thought progress: My thought progress was PainRes takes 80% of gen progress which is lost progress while a blocked generator does not lose any progress - you cannot work on it but also not lose anything. Regression also has the risk that players forget about the generator or cannot undo the -5% to stop the regression, especially in SoloQ - e.g. Player A goes for the rescue (Player B) while the killer gets another PainRes by hooking Player C which hits Players A's generator. Now, Player A has to unhook and heal Player B, and then go back to their gen which takes like 20 - 30 seconds and during this time, the gen loses progress. It can also happen that Player A has to go for Player C because Player D is in chase. This is also a drawback of Grim Embrace/blocking generators, sometimes survivors are so busy with other stuff that they don't care about the blocked generators. They are not in a losing situation but just in a busy moment with resetting and reposition and these are situations where regression hurts more than blocking.
I agree with you, that in both cases, regression and blocking, the survivor loses time but that is the spirit of slowdown → the survivor loses time while the killer wins time.
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Well, it's not really strong until you manage to hook all survivors, which is not that easy trigger.
Individual hooks have low impact.
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Just hide.
Also, when you say "that's 1,333… worth of gen progression lost," what do you mean?
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Yeah, unless you hook everyone, the effect isn't that strong at all.
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Nah, i think it's fine. The Perk rewards a Killer for not tunneling/slugging, since you need to Hook every Survivor once. It's a really well designed Perk and not even that strong. 40 Seconds is nothing against a solid Team. And blocked gens also can't regress, the Regression is paused for as long as a gen is blocked.
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A perk that gives the killer a reason to not tunnel or camp and we're crying about that now too? Really? I am fully convinced that people who come on these forums to complain about this tactic or that perk are just salty after getting stomped in a match not 15 minutes ago and came here to just cry how unfair whatever the killer in their last match did or used.
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It's an okay perk
Not nearly as good as people make it out to be
When paired with DMS it becomes pretty decent but it's still not that amazing
I'd only run it on killers you dont wanna slug with
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The only downside to using GE is the tokens. If you don't use the time given properly it goes to waste after 4 charges. I pair it with LP, FTTE, & SH:PR to maximize potential. Gameplay loop is simple; Find someone (not obsession) → Hook → Obsession revealed; go for someone else → rinse and repeat until everyone has been hooked once ending with the obsession. Then if you played it smart you SHOULD still have 4 token of pain res to use to keep the gens down for even longer. To answer your question… I don't think it's TOO strong but it's not weak by any means
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It's 10 seconds 3 separate times and 40 seconds 1 time (all Survivors hooked once).
I think it is generally balance, just an inconvenience and annoying. Since it blocks Generators, you are still able to do other activities, such as cleansing totems, healing, doing Glyphs for Archives, etc, so at least you can do something during the downtime.
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Because there's a limit to how much you can do it, it requires spreading out hooks, and it means you can't slug. It's sometimes able to be forced with tunnelling someone out but I think that's an oversight. With those qualifiers, the perk can be strong but it's certainly not problematic nor in need of any nerfs.
There are you know, more things to interact with in a Trial than just gens. You know that right?
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The issue is how well the perk pairs with Pain Resonance and Dead Man's Switch, both some of the strongest killer perks in the game. Killers are carried by the combination of these, or one of them + Grim Embrace so often in my experience, they can completely turn the game around and there's not a lot survivors can do. Especially if it's one of those killer players that treat public matches like they're playing competitive.
The counter to these perks would be lasting a long time in a chase but many killers are designed so it's extremely hard to do that, or you'd need to get lucky for it to happen. Also the sweats running this build are going to tunnel regardless, but that's a different story, survivors have decent perks to counter tunneling,
Pain Res and DMS can somewhat be countered, but Grim Embrace forces the gen to be blocked, which will force Dead Man's Switch to be activated, which is some BS, and there's nothing you can do against it. You'll be forced to switch gens and start again, which takes a lot of time.
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it used to be a gigastrong synergy with Pain Res prior to Pain Res nerf, it's still good now, but i think nowadays DMS is pulling the strings in this case far more intensive than Pain Res.
Eruption, Grim and DMS meta already there
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That's only the case if the survivor just stands there and does nothing. With gen block, survivors are still free to be productive. Gen regression deletes the time survivors were productive already.
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So we just shouldn't allow the game to ever be a 3v1? The killer shouldn't get rewarded for anything?
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I feel like the more fair interpretation is "the killer shouldn't have access to perks that are already very strong in the 4v1 when they're in a 3v1", personally.
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We should always the punish that side that is winning.
Unless I'm winning, then it's unfair.
This is unironically some people's mentalities.
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My assessment was fair. I guess my question becomes: Why? I could point to the weaker version of Ruin that deleted itself after 1 survivor died, or Thana which gives you pitiful slowdown after 1 survivor dies, and say how bad those are. Or draw comparisons with survivor perks, like if DS just turned off after a certain number of gens had been done. But I think hearing a simple explanation for why it's a good idea would be the best. Why should killer perks disappear after 1 survivor dies?
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Killer perks in general shouldn't. Perks that are specifically very powerful slowdown designed around the 1v4, like Grim Embrace and Pain Resonance, maybe could.
Ruin and Thana aren't that powerful nor designed around the 1v4 nearly as much, and DS is a completely different kind of perk so obviously that doesn't apply there either.
Grim Embrace and Pain Resonance, though, share a design philosophy that makes them very overbearing if someone's tunnelled out early. They're designed to be strong while spreading pressure and they are, so the question becomes, should you still get those perks in particular after already putting yourself in a massively advantageous position? Do you really need that much overkill?
I'm not even necessarily putting all my weight behind the position that they must be changed this way as soon as possible, I just think there's a lot of reasonable merit behind the suggestion. It's worth seriously considering.
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Not what I said.
All I'm saying is those two perks should be turned off once a survivor dies. They are designed around the killer being rewarded for hooking individual survivors yet are very effective when used after hard tunneling someone, and I don't think they are very fair when used that way.
I also in general would like gen speed/regression tools on both sides to be less effective, it's gotten very stale and boring at this point. (that includes both perks as well as toolboxes)
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I agree with you.
Personally, Grim Embrace is my go-to gen Perk. I dislike kicking gens more than I have to, I run this perk on everyone, and I don't mind having to spread hooks since I only ever tunnel if I have no real choice and need an out RIGHT NOW or it's an accident, or if you genuinely give me the chance to because you play badly. I usually pair it with something else if I need something strong. I prefer it to Pain Res because you eventually get to do the gens, it just keeps the early round under control for me so I don't get genrushed so hard as an M1 Killer.Now if I bring Pain Res, I actually am trying to win really hard. If I bring Pain Res and another Gen perk? That's overkill. I genuinely do not thinky ou need more than Grim E,brace and maybe one other weaker gen perk, or Pain Res. Hardly ever. At least, my consistent Kill percentage overall says I don't need more, so I am fine with that.
4 gen hold is overkill and cringe. You never need more than one maybe two. And depending on Killer and skill level with them, you need none at all for some, but only a select few. At least that is how I see it.
The issue IMHO with Pain res and Grim Embrace is not the perks. It's tunnelling. The issue is tunnelling. Address tunnelling and the perks are fine as they are right now with no further adjustments needed.All of the issues with these perks, and any perk that involves catching people, is 100% solved by looking at tunnelling. And frankly, truly toxic tunnelling isn't all that common, so it's a non issue.These perks are fine. Leave them be. No more changes needed. If Survivors need more help with chase, simply give them more chase perks or give them some way to handle themselves in chase better. Not too many, just enough to help them last about a minute because that is all you really need - in a well balanced game, chases shouldn't ever on either side last for more than about a minute, maybe a minute and a half. And they certainly should not last for multiple gens in a row ever, period.
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Stealth it out.
Use the time to reset and then save if the killer is not camping, if the killer is camping then stick gens for the 30 seconds after grim ends and either trade last second or let the surv hit second stage.
The effect is very powerful indeed but requires four unique hooks. Which should give you some time to make more progress than this perk removes.
I will admit this is a huge “win more” perk that just wins if you get 4 fresh hooks at 5 gens (killer is competent, survs weaker or made mistakes) or if killer is S tier.
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