What is the appeal of WoO?

All he's saying is if survivors can find a window/pallet he can't get a 4k as much as he likes.

Come on now, be fair, you both know exactly why WoO is disliked, it amplifies the problems of strong survivor maps for low to medium levels of play by facilitating a very uninteractive and boring style of play.

In a map with a large number of pallets, such as the Game or Hawkins, when you're playing a killer without a directly strong chase/cut off power, a WoO Survivor can take you on a long chase with just throw pallet and hold W to next pallet. It is brain dead, skillless, and yet annoyingly effective... there is a reason high level survivors rarely see lower tier killers, it's because they lack the power to efficiently answer survivors who know checkspots and all pallet/window spawns.

Now is it beatable? Yes of course, as I say, it's a boot camp for killers. However you do have to have good macro knowledge and know to drop chase into strong areas quickly, and/or have decently strong perks, and/or start playing quite mean and sweaty to claw back the early deficit this style of play can put you under. That's pretty much everyone's annoyance with WoO, an absolute scrub with literally no actual looping skill whatsoever can run pallet to pallet and burn loads of your time in the most uninteractive way possible. Yes if you have good slowdown perks to recoup that time, now you're laughing because all those resources are burnt, but if you don't, it's such a kick in the teeth.

At high level with strong killers that can out manoeuvre and cut off survivors, it's a none factor, but at low level, it's a nuisance... in fact I half suspect it's a contributor to why a number of maps have had half their pallet spawns ripped out.

Why I am not surprised that you were the one to turn this into an "us vs them" thing…

It's incredibly useful for solo survivor, especially in the current DBD era where survivors rarely play loops/pallets, they just pre-drop them without using any thought at all. With Windows as least you know a loop is dead and not to run there and in solo that is incredibly useful.

You also have to remember the vast majority of survivors are unskilled casuals and Windows helps them no end to at least have some chance.

I don't use Windows myself as I prefer other perks and I know maps/loops well enough to get by but even then it would still probably save me many downs as I don't know what resources are spent without it.

Knowing where pallets are doesn't suddenly make you a strong looper lol you're just making excuses. I don't use WoO, I look at what is available in my nearby environment, and even knowing then where pallets are I'm average at looping.

It's information, no different to many other perks that give auras/information on both sides. What matters is what you do with that info. The perk doesn't loop for you. There are many tiles where the killer can weaken the loop by moving in a certain direction, WoO is hardly going to help.

But what's wrong with looping the killer around the hook with Kindred? ... ... 😉

This is the one argument I can never get with my fellow killer mains on. Of all the perks that straight-up deny killer gameplay, or dead-end all of the pressure that you had, y'all are complaining about Windows? I don't get it. I mean I can see where they're coming from, in that Windows "helps" with looping because it lets you plan your route, but what's that got to do with survivors' looping skill? It doesn't amplify their chase all of a sudden. They're only as good in chase... as they are.

I think killers are falling prey to the same bad logic survivors use, when they talk about this issue. Because most survivors say, "If anything gives killer any decent value or info, it's crazy OP strong!" That's what they do with Windows. It's an info perk, not a stun, not another health state, not a pick-up denial, not a bullying tool. It lets you see vaults and pallets, and while I don't consider it a learner perk like most do, I think it's really good for knowing the map you've been given - in real time. You don't know for sure if a pallet's already been broken or a window spawned on 1 side of main or the other, unless you pre-scouted it out (ain't nobody got time for that), or trust in your ability to make snap decisions when presented with an unexpected loop variation. It really boils down to killers hoping to go against survivors who lack game knowledge, which isn't skill, it's 1 person who knows what they're doing vs people who don't. I thought we were against that, because we wanted to be able to beat good opponents, and not just smurf?

Knowing where things are or are not is valuable information. Just imagine playing killer without gen auras highlighted constantly. Could you still play the game effectively by just relying on good ol’ map sense without seeing where to look for gens and where not to? Sure! Would it be much more difficult for some people? Absolutely! That’s the value of WoO.

I understand what you're saying, and agree WoO isnt strong, the perk isn't problem for most killers... and as I say, I've kinda come round to the side that WoO is actually a good thing, because it ensures weak survivors can actually stay alive to some degree and you as killer are always having to catch someone who can reach a tile, rather than catching someone just cause they got caught in deadzone...

But having that viewpoint doesnt mean that I don't understand the annoyance of this perk for the weaker chase killers who rely on mind games. My personal gripe with it is actually from the survivor side... because I like to create different builds with as many different perks as poasible in DBD, and WoO is permanently on my ban list, cause it causes bad habits and using it prevents you growing past the perk.

Though its popular to decry it, MMR does actually work most of the time (at least if you're low to mid, which is where I think I am), and if you follow the bloodpoint bonus. With individual killer MMR, the survivors you'll face on Blight will be higher MMR than the ones you'll face on Pig after youve played both a while, and yet Pig has a higher killrate in the stats. This is where the issue is... Pig doesn't tend to appear in high level matches because there comes a point where survivors can just handle you... your mind games don't work and your power lacks the potency to force a hit.

If you faced Blight level players as Pig... it's very hard to compete because your ambush needs survivors to stay at the loop and play the tile to do anything. Survivors are usually skilled enough that even without WoO, can and will instead throw pallet and run away... because this is effective against Pig. They have the skills and knowledge to know where they're going and what the spawns are, and don't give a chance to use your power. This is just what it means to play Pig, you go in knowing that a bad map against good survivors will likely ruin your day.

As these kinds of killers, a survivor just running pallet to pallet prevents using your powers and wastes so much of your time with little you can do to stop it. You don't get to mind game, cause they never stay on the tile, they hold W away. The thing is WoO allows low MMR players to do exactly the same, so if you're playing a killer that isn't a high tier, the problems those lower tier killers face against high tier survivors become a reality in low tier games as well…

As I say, that's not necessarily a bad thing... it ensures that when you're playing that killer can see what the upper bound of your killer is, and then affords you the ability to try and create builds and strategies to shore up this weakness as much as you can. If you ever do make it to a higher player game as a weak killer, you're gonna need to have an answer to this playstyle, cause its gonna happen without WoO... so even if it does suck and encourage bad survivor habits, it is better for WoO to stay as is...

However it serves the discussion to understand the argument and frustration on WoO, and to claim there is no issue with it at all is false. It's the same issue as Lightborn. It's not good, and is laughable at high MMR that this perk is a problem, but like WoO it's just kinda lame that it's in the game.

It reduces the chances of me getting screwed by RNG. That's the main appeal. That and know what resources were used. Even in a swf, my friends aren't sweaty tryhards and don't announce every pallet they've dropped.

I never used this perk too often but anything that eliminates bad luck is going to be appealing, especially when survivor perks aren't exactly all that crazy barring a few.

It makes the hardest part of the game much easier for newer people. If you want to learn loops and pallet spawns, WoO is a must.. It's that simple. It isn't hurting anything.

So you just like the enjoyment in not knowing where pallets are still up after several minutes of other players being chased and end up dying in a dead zone? And this has nothing to do with thinking. #Its quite sad that people still dont understand the real value of WoO after having this discussed for a billion of times.

As others have said, Windows is popular at all levels of play for very good reasons. New players benefit form running it to learn maps and spawn possibilities, solos can know what resources have been used or not to help minimize heading into deadzones, and veterans maximize loops with it as well.

How many perks are actually consistently useful for all survs of all skills?

Hahaha OK... keep straw manning me rather than address my argument. It's fine... but I will say I don't lose because of WoO, but I can always tell when a certain type of player has it. They drop pallet and immediately bee line in a straight line to the next pallet. I'm not stupid, I am aware that not all players do that, I have no issue with survivors who play the tile with WoO and we get to have mind games and actually play DBD, however there are players who do just hold W pallet to pallet, and it's very boring facing them with certain killers, and on certain maps, it's annoyingly effective.

If you're a fast killer or a ranged killer like Blight, Oni, Hillbilly, Wesker or Huntress you cut them off as they transition to new tiles... if you're a killer with strong anti loop like Doctor, Clown, Artist or Knight, you don't really care, cause you can deny them pallets and windows anyway when they get there. However if you're someone like Myers, Legion, Ghost Face, or Pig, where more often than not you have to break mid tier pallets because you don't have a means of out-manouvering or cutting off a survivor if they have line of sight of you, you spend ages just walking after survivors OR you bloodlust them down, which isn't fun for anyone.

The alternative way you beat this is you start playing hit and run, you break the pallet as they run and go back to holding gens. You avoid chases into certain maps zones, cause you can't afford them, and you hold a subset of gens where you've broken all the pallets. It's your macro that wins the games.

It's not that I can't win, it's that I have to constantly break chase to hold 3 gens, I have to break pallets and go back, play the war of attrition until I turn that 3 gen into a total deadzone and then play mean to claw back an advantage. It doesn't feel good to play this way, especially as Pig, cause survivors who just throw pallet and run prevent you from using your ambush power constantly. You win the battle of attrition, but it's boring.

A build I've ran on Pig to decent success to counter this hold W playstyle is Game Afoot, Brutal Strength, Nemesis and Deadlock. The entire point is just to turn Survivors into the Obsession and stick to them after they throw pallet and hold W with Game Afoot, and it works.

I also hate it from the Survivor side, because it's what I call a sat nav perk. It you follow a sat nav to whereever you go, you never learn the route. You can drive it 100 times, and still not know the path... if you plan it on a map however and follow road signs and landmarks to get there, then you learn the route in maybe 2 trips. It's the same for WoO. It actively inhibits your ability to learn maps and spawns. As such it's on my personal ban list, because it actively hinders my ability to get better at the game.

So yes, please do tell me again how "I don't like WoO because I can't win". It adds so much to the conversation instead of actually engaging with my point. It's fine to disagree with me, but if you're gonna say you don't understand why people don't like WoO then not listen to people who then explain why, it's kinda on you.

• Helps to know which pallets have been used instead of basing it off luck unless you were the one using them.
• Gives an idea of where you want to go next; it opens the window (no pun intended) for more potential loops that won’t end up a dead zone.
• To make the BEST use of it, you have to understand what is safe and what isn’t on the map. Players who use it with their brain off just insta-throw the best pallets in less than a minute.

It’s only auto pilot if you’re wanting to throw pallet after pallet after pallet without thinking.