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SWF is OP because they have no weaknesses
9 years later and SWF is still untouched. It's asinine to ignore the issue when they got all the tools and experience in hand. Killer leaving the first chase only for the killer to get outchased again by another because there is no weak link in the group.
4 or 3 good players can already decide the outcome for the match. If 2 and 2 survivor parties in a group are evenly matched, or sometimes even 4 solo queue survivors? Good luck, killer, you'll need it.
It's about time for SWF to receive some nerfs. Debuffing the team is the only option.
Comments
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SWFs have weaknesses. And the weakness are the individual players. 99% of SWFs are not on that level you want to claim they are. You will not lose a game because the Survivors are playing in an SWF. You will lose a game if the Survivors are better than you - and then you would have probably lost against the same Survivors if they were all SoloQ.
You will not have 4 players who play perfectly in every match, even when they are in an SWF. And SWF does not suddenly make bad players good.
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Then explain to me why I get teams that know exactly how to loop? You can't because you simply believe that every SWF isn't good and compare them to solo queue players despite SWF using comms.
BHVR loves to buff killers because they thought it was a good idea to bring solo queue in par with SWF. Now look what solo queue have to deal with overbuffed killers all because SWF remains untouched. BHVR's decision making makes me laugh.
If they nerfed SWF, killers never needed the buffs in the first place and neither did solo queue need changes. It's all for naught.
BHVR and SWF are responsible for this. BHVR for deciding it. SWF for defending it.
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SoloQ is NOT on par with SWF. But this is not because of communication, this is because SWF has the ability to eliminate teammate-RNG. This is the strength. And this is also the reason why you might get better players in an SWF, but the same players would play roughly the same if they are playing Solo.
SoloQ is still the most miserable role in this game, the added information did not change anything here.
And no, I dont think you get such good players every game.
Have you thought at some point that YOU are making mistakes? That YOU might not play as good as you think you are playing? Or do you just automatically blame it on SWF, the most used scapegoat? Do you have some gameplay-footage to review?
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Why waste your precious time and knowledge answering these delusional posts? They only like 500+ of them already and always apparently made by a person who got their ass handed to them when they finally meet players who are on their level or just better. It is really pathetic why this is the ONLY game that playing with your friends or family is a crime.
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I have to agree with Aven here, though SWF definitely is an advantage, it doesn't miraculously turn all the players into skilled survivors. If you're an experienced killer you're going to stomp on most SWF's and pretty much every solo queue lobby, unless the RNG gods are not favourable to you.
SWF isn't going anywhere either, as its a big draw for BHVR and nerfing SWF will not go down well with the majority of their customers.
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Complaining that 4 people in the same team are even skillwise is such a wrong approach.
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I have a different perspective. I don't remember the target winrate by the developers, but I think it was last discussed to be 70/30. If you play a game that you are intentionally designed to lose 30% of the time — there needs to be a factor in the game you can lose to. SWF is highly coordinated, highly efficient, and highly technical compared to SoloQ—don't you want opponents that challenge you? There is a well-known member of the community that considers themselves to be "truly talented" at playing Dead by Daylight. This community member, who streams their games, has a reputation for complaining about SWF despite their self-proclaimed talent.
A fair minority of killers purposely keep their MMR low by 8hooking survivors and letting them all leave at the end of the match. If you want to breathe and just mow down players, that option is available to you — but you no longer "win" matches the same way. All I want is for killers to feel like they are lethal and efficient without having to immediately remove one player from the game ASAP. Survivors should have the ability to coordinate and reach the top of the skill ceiling. The game is not balanced for high level play, and I'm not sure how much of the developer's time should be spent addressing it. How many players actually go against SWF groups?
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Don't like it? Find a different game to play. SWF is fine just how it is.
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Think they said their goal is around 60% killrate. As for numbers, about half of all survs are solo and about half are in two-mans, with trios much more rarer to see and quads even more so.
I do wish players would realize that the trios and quads absolutely do have weaknesses and they should be taken advantage of. They badly want to prevent someone going into second stage, they badly want to prevent direct tunneling, and above all else really really wish to get everyone out. Killers should adjust their methods with all of that in mind.
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Killrate is definitely closer to 70/30 without swf. Any decent killer at minumum just wipes the floor with solo queue.
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Aaah. It's weekend again, I see
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First I want to point out that it isnt really completely fair to lump all SWFs in the same group together. Most SWFs are either just a group of friends messing around or some people who hooked up in a discord to play games together and have personal skill levels that are all over the place.
Not all SWFs are playing the game at a super high level. However the problems with regards to game balance start at the top with these super skilled SWF groups. These are the groups of players that killers are usually talking about when they say things like "SWFs are OP" and similar remarks. Your average SWF isnt really leveraging every single advantage they have to the absolute maximum, nor are they highly skilled players in their own right typically. Even in cases where there is problematic and unbalanced stacking of very OP perks, because the players themselves arent playing perfectly, those tools arent nearly as opressive. Thats not to say that some situations where perk stacking in particular cant lead to situations that feel crappy, it absolutely can. It just means that if you are playing well, you still have a shot at winning.
As I said in another SWF thread, high end SWFs break the game balance completely in a way that is difficult to find solutions for that are both clean and reasonable. I don't think anyone who is looking at this issue with SWFs and being reasonable really wants to ruin the game for SWFs. At the same time something has got to give. Things can not continue on this way. (If I were on the dev team and were reading this I might actually cry tears of joy. These issues with SWFs cant be easy for them to work around either).One thing I did not mention in my previous post in the other thread is that SWFs do get an advantage if they are in comms. The power of this advantage is significant but difficult to really quantify beyond using vague estimations like "significant". Still, this should be taken into account.
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Altruism. Their weakness is altruism.
If you got outplayed by multiple players in a row, you should take a huge hit to your outlook of winning the game for it.
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Hard to believe anti-SFW comes about because on my assumed average killers might lose 1 in every 5 maybe even 10 games.
C'mon guys I know you want to win every match, but it's just not going to happen. Sorry.
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People always say this. How do you "exploit their weakness of altruism" when they all stack styptics, insta-heals, Unbreakable, DS, Shoulder the Burden and have sent themselves to a map with a pallet every five feet like Autohaven, Badham, Garden of Joy? Do you advise tunneling the "weak link" out? What if there is no weak link? Isn't tunneling toxic and only bad killers do that?
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I’ve been playing this game for almost 5 years and every argument I hear on SWF’s being OP is assuming that all 4 players are amazing every single match. This is not realistic in the slightest. I’m sure the majority of your matches are against your average player but you only remember the few bad matches.
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This is exhibit A in terms of how weak link gaming hurts killers in the long run. You can't base your entire plan around a weak link on a team. SWF is not OP. You're just going to have to play well to beat 4 good players. You're not going to be able to hard tunnel one person out and win by default.
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The second answer guy has lost his mind. SWF is incredibly OP and if evenly matched killer and survivals the killer has 0 chance. If you for example put the NIP guild from Counterstrike to play this game for 2000 hours in SWF, Do you think you would get a win? You wont even find anyone because everyone is gone before you even get there because killer is going to X lets gather here situation. SWF is better than all perks combined in the game.
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Swf is fine as it is. Besides that they would be crazy to punish players for playing with their friends. Really good way to kill your game.
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Withdraw.
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You take advantage by working their strats into yours. You go after the tunnel to get some free hits, with more survs off of gens as a result. You intercept them going in to prevent the second stage and force the trade. You're very deliberate with where you hook to get them near dead zones or even into the basement.
Absolutely no one goes up against the legendary fully stacked crack 4-man each trail. I get that those matches stick with you, but it is super uncommon. We all remember those ones where we get clapped, and human nature is to only recall that and not the seven wins before it or the five wins right after.
Unless you are actually at that fabled extreme "highest MMR" area you just don't get those kind of teams regularly, if at all. Should you really be there you get the very good survs who will resist mightily, but even they can go down.
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DBD is not CS. DBD wasn't made for e-sports. Public games are not comp
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If SWF has no weakness, how is it poosible that kill rates against SWF are not 0%? How is it possible that SWF have no infinite escape streaks?
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yall just coping super hard here lol
when i swfed in a 4 man, we literally had 1 player who was garbage (rip doss) and it didn't matter because we still never lost
we'd be talking about nonsense 24/7 and we'd barley even be trying
The fact is us being able to say "Yea killers chasing me do gens) was more then enough to win us games
Gens would be done in 6 mins or less every time
If Doss wasn't getting chased first, it's almost always be a 3 gen chase while 2 of us slam the other gen in 40 seconds while the other goes for the unhook
Just the fact that we all knew what the killer was doing and where they were was good enough for us to win 90% of our games or at the very least draw and deny the killer victory
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Do you really think that any semi-decent Survivor would actually need something like "Killer is chasing me, do Gens"? Really?
And your story sounds more like you would have been doing fine without communication. Because your example of communication is really not something which makes SWF stand out.
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literally half the posts i see about solo q are survivors complain about them getting chased and their team not doing gens
swf removes that entirely, so yes I do think they need it because otherwise people wouldn't scream my team wont do gens 24/7
these people would greaty greatly benefit from a simple "yea the killer is still chasing me you can sit there" or "He gave up and is heading towards you just run"
this was before the chase and gen ui stuff btw
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So how is you saying "killer chasing me" more valuable than looking at the HUD to see another survivor is chased? What youre claiming is just sheed skill difference between yourself and the killer. Its nothing to do with SWF or not.
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killer at 5 do 11 12 and 1 is a basic example that is already strong, especially against stealth killers.
Where it really starts to get crazy is when you coordinate items, perks and offerings in a manner that does not occur in soloQ on any consistent basis.
A lot of people, almost everyone in soloQ seems to forget (or ignore) is the pre-game chat that allows even random groups to coordinate on a level higher than the average soloQ group that does not communicate at all. It's a possibility that I see rarely used outside from memeposting and the occasional "Bring BPS".
The community somehow collectively decided to come up with terms for "slugging", "tunneling", "genrushing", for the sake of communicating patterns and actions but somehow failed to come up with an effective pre-game communication model to coordinate perk setups and strategies. What some of them got down to a tee however is the endgame chat freakout. That goes without thinking.
The possibility is there, think about it.
Everybody just hits ready (or not), going into the match with a preset plan (or not) and everyone is left guessing if you even equipped any perks at all or if you're going for a sabo build.
There is a reason the Killer cannot communicate with the survivors in the pre-game chat, but he can do so in the post-game chat.
If the community could somehow come up with an effective way of communicating the most basic strategies in the pre-game lobby they could at once go into the match with more information and could make adjustments accordingly (if they at all can).
If the group can spend the entire minute effectively then they should already be at a better place than before.
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I just want to throw in that not all killers who do this are doing it to keep their MMR low. I started playing this way after around the 1500 hour mark. I just found it more enjoyable. I could 2 hook everyone at that time but still gain rank, up to a certain point, because MMR didn't exist. So I could play how I enjoyed but not feel like I was picking on new players. It felt more like moving up into a casual area where other people also played in similar ways. Before that mark I would try and win as both sides at all cost.
Now I'm forced to either try harder or feel like I'm ruining the game for newer players. Instead I've just pretty much quit playing all together.
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literally half the posts i see about solo q are survivors complain about them getting chased and their team not doing gens
I think this is a problem with SBMM. Information about being chased shared via comms was useful before the UI update, but now the game's UI shows a survivor is being chased. If you know that gens should be getting done and the team isn't doing gens, then they're not on the same skill level. When my random teammates are more on my skill level, we're all doing gens. Nothing to do with SWF. I've had some great solo queue matches where everyone played optimally and you'd think we were SWF just because of how coordinated we seemed, but we weren't, we just had enough experience to know the best way to handle situations.
Then there are matches where someone teabags at me relentlessly instead of working on a gen because they want to heal me when I'm broken.
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FYI Consoles do not have pre-, or endgame chat
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This. It's crazy that I get matched up with megs who throw shack pallet to distract the killer because they read on the loading screen. I also had matches with players who were on the same skill level as me and we did some miraculous things.
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Ok, let me get this straight - you really think that inefficient SoloQ-Survivors exist, because nobody tells them that they have to do Gens? Are you actually serious with that? This might be the weirdest take I have ever seen.
The strength of SWF is that you can filter out those people who dont do Gens and waste their time doing Totems, Chests or strolls across the Map. Not that you can tell them to do Gens.
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Will drop a simple information here.
This game was not designed to have survs communicating exclusively between them. In the beginning there was a proximity chat that could be heard by the killer, but people playing with cellphone mics, listening to loud music without headphones (which made the other players listen to whatever their were listening) and other factors like these made BHVR remove this feature entirely.
And DbD was also not designed to be a Catch game, but a Hide and Seek one. That's why Nurse wasn't suppose to be the menace she is (because she would be ok in a Hide and Seek game).3 -
Yeah, but most SWFs dont coordinate like that. I dont really think what you believe happens in Discord Chats of most SWFs, but it is clearly not some Comp-Coordination or Callouts like that.
And while you are not wrong about the pregame Lobby, I can tell from my own experience that it might do anything. I can say in my Lobby "I have resurgence, so please heal me immediatly" and more than half of the time I am not healed immediatly and when the Killer brings anything which applies Hemorrhage, my Perk is gone in seconds.
And I have seen Survivors who run Kindred and STILL stand up from a Gen across the Map to go for a Save despite them seeing that someone else is already going for the Save. I have had situations where I was on the Hook, two Survivors on the same Gen and the last Survivor being chased and yet I reached second stage.
In all of those examples, the Survivors had exactly the same information as a SWF on Comms would have and yet they failed.
The strength of SWF is to make sure to not play with those people, but with somewhat competent Survivorws. IF and only IF you care about that. Most SWFs dont and just want to play with their friends.
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This is pretty wrong - since the game was out, there was no proximity chat. I am not sure if you talk about some Dev Build-features which were scrapped before the game went into Open Beta, but this is the first time I hear that. The Devs just simply did not implement SWF right from the start because of time constricts - they either implement Kill your Friends or Survive with Friends and they went with the first. SWF was joined soon after and was planned from the beginning.
That the game was designed without Voice Chat might be true, however you can assume that in 2016 the Devs were also considering that people will use Voice Chat when they play with each other. I mean, you cannot really ignore something like that in 2016.
And last but not least, Nurse was more a product of the game design. Back then the Devs had quite a poor understanding of Balance, which is why Nurse was created (she is a design failure like actual infinites or fast vaults without any requirements)… And possiblly also to counter infinites.
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Yeah, but most SWFs dont coordinate like that.
Well they will possibly coordinate Perks, Items, Offerings and basic strategies and keep the VC to joking around.
I can tell from my own experience that it might do anything
I have the same experience. Because nobody has the expectation that such things are communicated at that point in time and if it happens, some might not read it, some may have the chat disabled entirely, others read it and think nothing about it or don't know who it was that wrote it. There is no culture surrounding it, where as communicating concepts like tunneling, everyone knows everything.
In all of those examples, the Survivors had exactly the same information a SWF on Comms would have and yet they failed.
Exactly and that is where a good SWF splits from plain soloQ, because SWF die together and learn together, whereas in soloQ you queue alone and die alone. They can sniff eachother out in any situation because they have those experiences you only get when you play together for a long time. The more they do this the less they have to communicate via VC, they still can and will but when it comes down to it, they can do it without.
Most SWFs dont and just want to play with their friends.
True, and I've met them both as a Killer and Survivor. Some even invited me into their 3-man to play a couple of 4-man together. I never joined their discord but we instantly played together so well that we proceeded to make the next two killers straight up DC, we suddenly started winning almost every match. Meanwhile they were on discord memeing around.
Me and the girl of that group were absolute juicers while the 2 others who were newer to the game did gens. The guy with the least hours of the group was also really decent. Definitely not a meghead, he learned from good people.
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1-Crap. I wasn't around when Survive With Friends was a separate option instead of inviting friends to your lobby. Thanks for clarifying. 😊
2-Sadly we all know the fact that BHVR sometimes don't account for some things like BU + FTP. They probably envisioned the game to be balanced around having no Voice Chat and forgot you could use Discord. More specifically you could deny DbD access to your mic and allow it to Discord to fully bypass the proximity chat.
3-This makes more sense indeed. I'm sure she was made to counter infinites.
And talking about Nurse… she BADLY needs a rework. The way the Blinks work (going through walls and floors) should remain the same so Nurse players would not have all the skill lvl /muscle memory they've build over the years throw into the trash, but all the rest needs to be changed.
Maybe make her 4.4 or 4.6 and drastically change the way she get blink charges.
Making Nurse less of a menace would benefit all killers with better perks and other features because a lot of these needs to be mediocre to not be broken with Nurse.0 -
no, actually it’s about 60% kill rate based on the last stats that BHVR provided, which is exactly the kill rate the devs are targeting
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I have no problem with people playing with their friends and communicating, but I am absolutely going to find a different lobby if I can tell it’s a 4-man squad. Communication between all 4 players is a significant advantage and makes it extremely difficult for the killler to get more than 1 kill if the survivors know what they are doing. Anyone claiming otherwise is being dishonest. The game is not balanced around all 4 survivors coordinating with each other.
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I think the game should just remove solo queue
Make the game only possible to be played if you are queueing up with 3 other people from your friends list
thats the only way to balance it out and make people happy
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never going to happen. Would decimate the number of players in the game (and also the revenue coming in). Plenty of people (including myself) are willing to play solo queue despite the issues. I don’t mind solo queue as long as my teammates know what they are doing. The core problem is that the non-functional matchmaking system puts me with brand new survivors all the time, even though I have >2,000 hours and consider myself a decent (but not great) survivor player.
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Most Sane Killer Mane
Can you explain why voice communication between all 4 players is a significant advantage?
What makes the advantage significant as opposed to the regular communication that will inevitably happen throughout the course of the match?
Communication between all 4 players is a significant advantage and makes it extremely difficult for the killler to get more than 1 kill if the survivors know what they are doing.
If the survivors know what they are doing they don't necessarily require comms to win a great deal of their matches. The game provides soloQ with everything they need to succeed, or fail. If I completely suck at chases, no amount of voice communication will save me from a competent killer. If the entire team is mediocre at best at everything then no amount of voice com will prevent me getting them all.
If you are playing a basic M1 killer and all survivors in the lobby have enough experience to run common tiles vs M1 killers perfectly while using every second not spent in chase holding M1 on a gen then no communication is required. They see you coming, they prerun to the next safest tile to waste your time.
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Aaaannnnnnddddd every bit of that means absolutely nothing to those to are on the consoles and have no chat box, which makes up the vast majority of the playerbase.
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Which is bs. You guys should protest it. Then again, seeing how it isn't used by even the PC players, that would probably do nothing for you. Sad but it is what it is.
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Agreed. Four competent and game-sense having solos are much more difficult to defeat than any number of them on comms but lacking the seasoning to know what to do when.
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I don't think our PC cousins are going to wait around fourteen minutes while I painfully type out a single sentence with my controller! 🤣😂
Remember we have no M&K support for this game.
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Easy. They don't all stack styptics, instaheals, antislug antitunnel, stb and offering.
I don't deny that those groups exist, but the solution lies in addressing the problems with those tools themselves, not punishing SWFs for existing.
My advice for you is to check for negativity and confirmation bias when recalling your experiences of matches, especially about parts of the game that are speculative, like if you're vsing a SWF or Solos.
Also, if there, quote, "is no weak link", you deserve the loss. All four survivors eclipse you in skill.
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Then the game will never be as balanced as people want it to be
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