SWF is OP because they have no weaknesses

There is always a weak link. You don't always have the time to find it, as indicated in the other million threads related to generator completion speeds.

Teamwork is communication. It happens in the moment and it happens before the event. Additionally, purporting that the only benefit or majority benefit of SWF is teammate reliability is nothing but an indication of the ridiculously over powered potential existent in the SWF concept as applied here. Simply put, its people that play a lot of survivor flexing how few of the tools at their disposal they need to use to dominate in simple chases; due to their smaller hit boxes, short generator times, second chase mechanics, and so on. You'll have to play smarter to over come the advantage they have.

To address the original post, I find their weakness to be primarily egoism, and making use of that weakness to benefit your game play demands the same toolset you'd use to manage an individual afflicted with such traits in the real world. The opposite of altruism, to be direct.

They won't nerf it, its the primary income stream.

This guy gets it. 4 Survivors exploiting how good that side ACTUALLY can be will always feel so much worse than 1 Killer doing the only things they can to exploit Survivors….slugging/tunneling/camping. It'd be different if Killer players were not conditioned into realizing how hard it is to down very good Survivors. Eventually all Killers just say F it I'm tunneling this person out as they weren't turning on DBD to sweat. People want it easier and since that ease doesn't come from naturally going after other Survivors for most, that isn't what they are going to do..

I agree with this sentiment. You can't perfectly balance it and I've always understood that, but there are still GLARINGLY bad issues that could easily be fixed.. One that comes to mind is the fact that BHVR made the anti-camp hook mechanic STOP the bar if another Survivor is near.. That's so stupid as NEW PEOPLE (who the mechanic should be made for) have no idea being close to us while on hook with Killer in our face, completely blocks the mechanic.. How they don't think about this stuff, I'll never understand.. It REALLY is simple..

Yeah. Even though I think back to years past and think "survivors were so OP then!", I kind of felt like I could do more against SWF then than I could now. Obviously I didn't have the experience back then to capitalize on it, and now that I do, killer has been nerfed to crap. But it's true. The amount of times people say, "These killers players, that I can count on 1 hand, have 1000+ win streaks!" but they'll never look at the streaks where survivors got so many 4-man outs in a row, without even giving those killers 1 hook. And it doesn't help that some people on here, who main killer, exaggerate how strong the killers are. I don't doubt in their ability or expertise, but when they say, "Clown and Freddy are really good! It's just that you guys haven't explored their potential yet!", it's just like… No.

It's inevitable that as a game's lifespan goes on, the players are gonna get better and start playing dirtier/more efficient. But I feel like this game's had that way accelerated due to survivors being immature and just demanding everything be handed to them. The survivor role really has never been that hard to play. You connect tiles together, use check spots, send 1 in to unhook, and do gens fast. But the most casual and biased of them got the devs' ears and said, "Killers having any agency in chase, or any meaningful slowdown, is OP!" So that's what you've got now, and it's why the past few years has just been a history of killers getting nerfed, resorting to new strats/perks, those get nerfed, resorting to new strats/perks, and the cycle continues because the base tools and mechanics they've got are not good enough.

A lot of killers used to be pretty decent. If you dropped some of them from their peak strength into the current game, some wouldn't be very good, like Freddy or Wraith, but others I think could be strong, like Deathslinger or Pinhead. I didn't like the Spirit nerf, because she went from a mindgame killer, which took lots of skill from both sides, to a killer who just chased faster... while phased. 🤷‍♀️ Freddy was a glorified M1 with a bit of slowdown, but still got nerfed because he was "S tier" and took "forever" to beat. Deathslinger really hits hard, because I mained him, and he's just ruined now. His quick scope and smaller TR are all he had, and they nerfed them. "His shots are unreactable!" You're not supposed to just be able to react to the killer's power. It's about being unpredictable. And Wraith pretty much has the most counterplay in the game, if you think about it, and he got nerfed just because he had a fast/long lunge...

I've been conditioned to tunnel. It physically feels bad when I force myself not to tunnel, because I know I'm making a bad play. But with the dumb DS rebuff, Shoulder The Burden, and all the other Terminator off-the-hook perks survivors get, I'm leaning more and more towards slugging. I've had pretty good successes with it. But after the devs nerf that, which they inevitably will, I really don't know what we're gonna do. Nobody wants to play a role where they're set to lose the moment they go against equally skilled opponents.

100% agree, i often run tinkerer to sneak up on survivors doing gens undetected but coms negate that perk entirely by simply saying "killer left me, heading for you". By the time I get to the gen they are long gone. Soloq and swf are worlds apart.

😊 Trying my best to behave but I can't promise anything lol

Why nerf the reason why players play the game

Debuff their gen progression speeds per SWF amount in party. Wouldn't affect SoloQ one bit so Surv overall isn't nerfed and would increase gen repair times for SWF to offset their coordinated information.

-Only allow SWF to bring in brown tools and brown add-ons. Entices SWF to engage with chests and also deters stacks of broken tools being brought into the match.

-Don't allow repeat perks. All SWF in a party must bring in different perks so they all can't stack the meta or all can't stack 2nd chance perks to troll the Killer.

See, when people are talking about "punishing people for playing with friends", they're referring to this kinda thing.

The issue with all that is the solos being thrown in with paired up survs who do gens way slower and are forced to run less effective builds. One thing the devs have consistently shown is they wish players to run what they like.

I get that completely... I was playing devils advocate

If you're that worried about SWFs just play Blight… Youll get easy 4ks with not a lot of effort.

SWF looks op because so many games are headless chickens in solo queue when you actually have people working together as a team it's jarring.

I don't know how you would implement this or any other change to SWF.

People bring up gen-debuffs, but when asked no one can give a consensus on 2-man or 3-man. Like the other poster said, solo-queue suffers without the information a SWF provides and usually has randoms running around not knowing what to do unless you're high MMR.

Eh, that's just bringing comp-styled gameplay to casual games of SWF.

Not all SWF are good, lol. I just find it odd that out of all games that involve playing with friends people want to add restrictions to how others play with one another. SWF has a marginally higher chance of winning compared to regular solo-queue and adding restrictions to a player base that primarily plays the game isn't it, imo.

I would argue making solo-queue more in-line with SWF and buffing F-tier killers is a better alternative, especially with how loops have been obliterated anyways.

Again, I typically duo-que, so are you implying that if my friend brings Sprint Burst I can't bring it or does this change only impact 3 man/4 man SWFs?

Yet limiting how people play as well.

We're already at a 60% killrate for killers as per the developers, yet you want to restrict SWF to playing with other perks. SWF is not comp DBD and doesn't need the restrictions that comp DBD needs.

Again, do you consider 2 man SWF strong? Does 2 man SWF need to be addressed or are we primarily focusing on 4 man stacks?

That's Behavior's fault for putting in terrible tutorials and the onnus of getting better in a game typically requires the person to either

a): spectate players

b): go on YouTube to figure out tips and strategies

or c): taking time to read perk descriptions and figured out optimal builds

Look at any popular multiplayer game and you'll see that people typically need outside sources to git gud at a game. Dead By Daylight is no exception to this rule and if you want to improve as survivor or killer, you typically need to watch people who know what they're doing to get a better idea of how to "win".

I suppose, we can agree to disagree. 😊

My bad, I was in the shower and didn't read that specific point.

But regardless, I don't see a point of nerfing SWF. Most SWF are not team Elysium with clock callouts and not bully squads (they're not doing gens anyways). It's a non-issue to me, I just value player freedom.

There are ways to improve solo-queue, such as showing the anti-camp meter. (that's one example) or even implementing a ping system similar to what a map add-on does. Even introducing the ability to see each other's perks would go a long way. There are definitely ways to improve solo-queue to become more coordinated as we've seen with the HUD update and built in borrowed time. Thanks for the discussion anyways. 😅

Yes, that's why I don't believe there should be built in-Bond or Kindred as it makes Trapper and Hag harder to play for example.

That's why I brought up the ping system to compensate for the lack of communication solo-queue gets. It helps people play and works around communication and I believe it would help solo-queue in the long run to implement the changes I've suggested above.

I definitely agree about map offerings, if anything I'd rework them to be the inverse of what they are. If a killer for example brings Badham, it reduces Badham from the pool and helps keep Dead By Daylight's RNG in tact. The same could be said about killer, however. The times I've been sent to Midwich or Dead Dawg (my most hated maps). Obviously they'd have to do something about sacrificial wards, but I agree that one side shouldn't be able to tip the balance in their favor unless items and add-ons are in play.

Would help killers who have many Badham offerings for sure. 😂

Thanks for the discussion, I enjoyed it. The game is very outdated in my opinion and changes come to the game very slowly. It would help and liven up the game, imagine 5 map offerings dictating the game to not go to each specific realm but no, instead it's a roll of the dice on who picked what map offering. I hardly use map offerings unless I'm tired of seeing the same map (Coldwind Farm and Shelter Woods). I usually opt for bloodpoints and typically I don't burn Badham offerings as I know most of the time the killer will DC in the loading screen or tunnel because that's all they can do on the large map. ☠️

I think they have the passion obviously, especially with the crouch-tech change and Shoulder The Burden perk introduction. They just don't really listen to the community as much in my opinion and it does hurt because I do love the game. We're all passionate on the forums, hence why we're all here. 😛

I think the game needs fundamental changes to it to liven it up to a certain extent as it would help with the burnout that people have. Remedy issues on both sides, I still remember the time they did the AMA on Reddit and people brought up seeing each other's perks and they said it would be too time consuming to do. It's sad as the game has been evolving so much with many perks being introduced since my time of playing (2020/2021), yet they have the time to add in what perks we have and what they do when we pause the game. They can do the same for other people and their perks. I can't even use Deliverance when I play with randoms, for example. There's many things that I would have introduced a while ago, but Behavior seems to not really take in community feedback most of the time and usually introduce things that not many people ask for and ignore issues that are more profound. It's mind-boggling in a way, sadly.

4-mans are by far the tiniest SWF groups out there. Only targeting them imo would be a waste of the dev's resources and time, when there's so many other aspects of the game needing attention. This sounds mostly sounds an issue at the higher MMR areas anyway, which they do not balance for in the first place.

You speak as if the devs don't already put way too much time into wasteful changes. :P I agree btw. It is a much more noticeable problem at higher MMR.