Make ranked solo queue, even for survivors?
Unpopular opinion here, but nothing is as despicably egregious as playing against a SWF. I have been going up against so many as of late, and it just kills the game. It should not be possible for people playing in a team to accrue points or complete challenges or anything else, for that matter, as it completely nulifies the idea of the game. The game is NOT thought to be played with friends (that's why there's no in-voice chat or anything). Behaviour should make solo queue mandatory for ranked matches; only custom matches should allow you to invite friends.
Comments
-
Around half of all survs are in a two-man SWF, with far less in trios and even less than that in quads. But still about half. Do you have any idea what that would to to queue times for everyone, everywhere?
It was always intended to have SWF in the game, it just wasn't quite ready at launch and was quickly added in soon after. Imo they might have underestimated what effect comms and midigating the randomness of solo queue would have, but players pairing up was always intended.
The reasons for some perks being redundant using comms is just so those playing solo have more options available to them. They'd be insane not to think surv would use comms in some fashion, even in 2016.
7 -
Third swf thread today
13 -
All the more reason to make them a thing of the past.
The problem is there will never be a way to efficiently block all communications between survivors - even if you somehow installed something on the PC blocking all communication online, people could still call each other on Whatsapp.
No, SWF have to go, and the only way is to put an end to inviting friends on ranked. Wanna play with friends? Sure, make it unranked. But ranked should always be solo queue.
0 -
There's absolutely no way to block comms on the consoles though, and they make up the vast majority of the overall playerbase.
And again, this suggestion would wreak queue times. Players joke about this thing or that killing off the game, but this idea prolly would.
3 -
I prefer going against SWF since they usually don't act like guppies.
5 -
BHVR could block it by not allowing Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft to access their game. But they cannot force any one of those companies to abandon their in-system communication settings. And they can’t produce updates to DbD that interfere with the console’s communication system either of they’ll be sued.
6 -
I won't quote every post since, but my point remains: if we do away with squads, the game will improve. Balance will improve. Everything will improve.
The other thing I could think of is introducing a malus. For each player you bring to the match, a -1% in speed or repair speed or something. It's time to put an end to SWFs for good. Who's with me?
2 -
“Who's with me?”
No one
22 -
If you're going up against "so many" of these swf teams (despite 4man swfs who play super perfectly being incredibly rare), then perhaps they aren't actually swf at all. Perhaps you're in an MMR bracket that you shouldn't be and your opponents are simply better at the game?
19 -
Nah, double checked: literally all of them from the same country and they even admitted to being in squads (laughing it off, most of the time). I am talking about 4/6 games today being like this. Insane.
0 -
Deleting SWF kills the game. Outright.
idk why people forget that SWFs are the lifeblood of DBD. Content creation, matches played, so much of this game centers around SWFs.
You say the game would improve - there won't be a game to improve.
You yourself admit how many of them you go against, remove all those lobbies and think of how your queue time would tank. Also, its not "ranked matches", its pubs. This game doesn't have ranks. Hasn't had a displayed grade even in years, and hopefully we'll never get an actual ranked system either, not that this thread is about that at all.
17 -
I think it is important to have perspective here.
You are suggesting for a multiplayer game to decentivize players from communicating with each other because you believe it provides an unfair advantage. I want to reiterate this point — you have a problem with people working together against you in a game designed for people to work together.
The problem is not that SWF is powerful. The problem is that SoloQ is not powerful enough.
If DBD introduces a ranked mode, I will not play it. There used to be a time in DBD where you could goof around, and goof around with other people who also wanted to goof around. If you wanted to take the game seriously, pip-up and go to a higher emblem. If the MMR system forced both of us into the same match, you would not like the outcome because our priorities are not in alignment, and you are taking the game 10x as seriously as I am. What if I just want to have fun?
We are both playing Dead by Daylight — but just as you wouldn't want the developers to balance the game for a casual audience, I don't want the developers to balance the game for a competitive one. There used to be a divider on the grocery store conveyer belt, which has been removed by MMR.
12 -
There could be a normal mode and ranked mode, and they don't need to be balanced the same as each other.
1 -
I agreed with you, but then 2v8 came out and revealed that matchmaking is actually a problem we have to consider. I am sure DBD previously had poor matchmaking over the years, but it wasn't until 2v8 that I became aware and concerned about queue splitting.
I don't have access to the data to make an informed decision, but I know the suits at BHVR have access to it. If they are comfortable with the current queue split between Chaos Shuffle/DBD Core in this very moment, then I am 100% on-board with your idea and believe they should also implement a perk banlist system controlled by the developers to address perk concerns (Forbidden - Not playable; Limited - Yellow; Semi-Limited - Green; Unlimited - Purple). The perk banlist system would not impact casual play in the casual queue, where it would be DBD in the current state. Like Old DBD, the casual queue would become the event queue—as casual players will play the events anyway and 3 queues is a lot.
3 -
2v8 is the only game mode that really broke the queue times, and that was because of 2v8 itself, and not the fact that we had two game modes at the same time. We would have had the same queue time problem if 2v8 was the only game mode available.
2 -
I disagree with this opinion.
1 -
no swf would straight up kill this game. If you find it egregious, maybe go play something else. 🤷♂️
5 -
The only reason ppl solo que is like to warm up or because the swf isnt on. There would be almost 0 people in that que.
2 -
Imagine Killer queue time in ranked knowing all survivors were solo. It'd be worse than 2v8.
8 -
If you watch the streams around release (they're on the official DBD YouTube channel) the devs talk alot about how the game is designed to be played with friends as an option. This narrative of "it was never meant to be" is made up by people who don't like SWF.
They were running out of time when release was coming up and had to decide between KYF and SWF at release - they went with KYF because they figured people would really want to do some private lobbies chasing their friends. When they announced this they said that SWF would definitely be coming after release.
As for comms in game they also addressed why they didn't - to save time/resources. They didn't see the point of making in game comms when people could use discord/platform comms to talk with their friends.
As for wanting to remove SWF from lobbies - when the devs shared stats with a breakdown of the player base SWF made up half of the survivor playerbase, 2SWF being the majority and 4SWF being at most 5%. If you were to remove SWF from the lobbies that would be half of the survivor playor base. Killers complained during 2v8 so much about wait times that they're now planning to add bots to event matches. If you remove half of the survivor player base from regular 1v4 that will definitely increase killer wait times and bots will be added to that queue as well. If you're fine playing against bots as killer then you are free to play the custom game mode now where you are guaranteed to never run into a SWF.
7 -
How about insted of blaming other and look at yourself before anything 🤔 legit most people only go againts solo queue with barley any SwIF so sounds like u are either 1 using game play mechanics in a way that will cause you too loosed becasue you are used to going againts solo queue or 2 u have to win at any cost no matter what can continue to boost you mmr so high that you now any go againts swif becasue they game is legit set you like this if you prosit to win especially match u know you shpuld have lost becasue it so easy to go from 0 to everyone dead with just tunneling 1 person sees it too often
2 -
Then perhaps do as I said: give survivors who team up a malus: the more survivors team up, the greater their malus. Or give the killer a bonus! +2%/+3%/+5% haste bonus if pitted against SWF, for instance.
I don't really follow what you wrote here. I'm not trying to artificially boost my MMR, is that is what you're saying. Quite the contrary, I'm more than content with being teamed up with absolute losers and destroying them utterly. Sure, I did try and knock out a survivor quickly from the game during Chaos Shuffle (the beauty of knowing that not everyone and their mother will have Decisive Strike), but then with non-modifier queue I try and pick them off rotating so that I don't get knifed with Decisive Strike.
Sure, if they should ever remove or nerf Decisive Strike…. oh boy, I would literally pick survivors one by one. But alas, that's never gonna happen.
EDIT: Reading your comment again, I get what you mean: nah, I don't tunnel survivors compulsively (mostly because DS makes it impossible to do so), so no, it's not that artificially inflating my MMR. I'm right where I should be, only that I'm constantly teamed up against 4-player SWF.
I just played four matches: three of them made of 4-players SWF. This is getting tiresome.
0 -
A 4SWF has a 43.09% survival rate, only 2.75% more than solo. Even at high MMR it's under 50% survival rate. There's no reason to give people playing with friends malus while giving killers a bonus for facing them when the survival rates are under 50%. Punishing half of the player base for playing with their friends when they have under 50% survival rate is how you kill the survivor player base, killers will get long wait times and eventually BHVR filling regular 1v4 lobbies with bots.
13 -
I think also people don't recognize that to get to higher MMR and even ranked or comp type of playstyles, they're typically coordinated SWFs. People who actively only play solo-queue are good at the game when they start learning and developing skills - it's why the player base is mostly consisting of veteran players and a mixture of new people.
Why a lot of games are considered "sweat fests", people play optimally the more and more you win.
1 -
That could be it - I am probably in a High MMR and that's why the difference is so noticeable. Whenever I am playing against solos (easily recognisable when they are on different platforms and/or countries) I tend to fare way better, whereas 4-player SWFs are always significantly more difficult and coordinated (I noticed that I average something like four~three kills against full solo teams and two~one kills for 4-survivor SWFs, roughly, with other combinations falling anywhere in-between).
Oh well, I am a number's man; I do think a 10% difference between solo and 4-survivor SWF in high MMR is worrisome, but I would have thought the difference to be WAY greater than that (like 40% vs. 70%). I still think that a little bonus or malus here and there could help, but I understand given those numbers you shared that the devs and a majority of the playerbase should not feel the need to change anything.
1 -
You killer mains are the source of it. Maybe stop asking for every good survivor perk to be gutted or stop tunneling/slugging so much that your mmr goes so high you get a competent non swf team that beats you?
You guys seem to cant process that while not common there are people who are not a swf just a set of 4 people who is on skill or better skill than you than even a average 4 man swf will stomp you.
You cant expect to have ez games all the time via solo q bullying. You got to accept that this game and any online multi-player game will have swf in it. Stop living in fantasy and give in to reality. You can always just play offline solo games or custom lobbies with bots.
Post edited by buggybug on4 -
" Whenever I am playing against solos (easily recognisable when they are on different platforms and/or countries) "
I wouldn't use that to judge. I know of a number of people who play together on different platforms. Also back in the day when I used to SWF I would regularly play with people in different countries.
I think a lot of people overestimate how many 4 stacks they face. I'm 100% solo theses days and quite regularly get accused of being in a SWF. Even if you say "no" they don't believe you.
5 -
Man, chill. I don't tunnel a survivor unless he asks for it (like teabagging or something) and I truly never slug a team. That's just distasteful.
Note that I am not speaking about win/loss ratio in my original post that you quoted; when I posted that, IIRC, I had completely wiped out two 4 SWFs in a string of six matches, with varying degress of success in the others. But it's not about winning, rather the toxic pestering, the egregious flashlights, the incessant bodyblocks, all of that kills the game. I'm not complaining because I lose, I'm complaining even when I win, because the whole squad dynamc kills the game. I even used to play a loadout with Starstruck and awakened awareness that destroyed wannabe rescue / tank survivros. It's not about winning. It's about having fun. You can even see my latest post before this one in which I talk about rough success ratio. It's about countering toxicity.
That's true, though it is worth mentioning that when I created this post I had payed like 6 matches against 4-survivor SWFs in a row and two of them admitted being all four of them together and other two partially admitted to it, IIRC. The others are subject of speculation and inference.
0 -
Yea so maybe BHVR should do something about SWF instead of catering the entire game around them.
0 -
team based games that don’t allow you to queue with friends or punish queuing with friends die out.
For this reason, BHVR will never nerf SWF or punish out of game comms. Trying to advocate for either is a fruitless endeavor.
6 -
honestly i dont think most people who play this game schedule it for 4 people , only the basement dwellers do that. Make a restriction that you can only invite 1 friend to soloQ lobby and we meet half way. You get to play with your friend in a semi fair game.. the 4 SWF is not so common that it would ruin the game unless these crybabies can cheat.
0 -
And it's for that very reason that SoloQ is unplayable and all Killers are going to be met with is SWF and Bots. There is zero actual reason not to nerf SWF. All the droning on and on about how SWF players will leave if SWF is balanced out, well they need to get gone then, they're making the game worse for everyone.
0 -
I just told you the reason not to nerf SWF - people that want to play games with friends will just play other games and stop playing DBD. Terrible business move, which is why it won't ever happen.
If you want an even playing field, you boost soloqueue up to SWF level by making matchmaking not suck and adding more UI info (like teammate perks) and perhaps things like pings, and buff killer to match.
4 -
You guys don't actually want ranked. What you really want is SWF removed but you want to keep the current joke of a matchmaking system that is designed to prevent killers from getting frustrated. You'd lose your mind if this game had a legitimate ranked mode that put you against four strong survivors every match at higher ranks.
9 -
There's some evidence to support this line of thought.
About two years ago they made their MMR much more strict. This resulted in increased queue times and some burnout from back to back to back stressful matches. Turns out the sweats didn't like going up against the sweats repeatedly. Strange. 🤔
They then put the soft cap etc. back to where it was.
So players want fair march, fast queues, and no stomps. But also not to sweat unless they feel like it. And not all the time, just sometimes. And it's ok to stomp now and then too.
I do not envy these devs when it comes to balance.
4 -
In your opinion why do you think the game is catered to SWF? Their survival rate is below 50%, and that includes even the top 5% of MMR players. If the game truly favored SWF, wouldn’t their survival rate be significantly higher? Isn’t that what catering implies?
SWF doesn’t get exclusive perks or items, SoloQ has access to the exact same things. The benefits players in SWF receive are external, not internal. They don’t get special BP incentives to play SWF over other roles, or special in-game cosmetics or things like that.
9 -
I am and I am a soloq survivor main
0 -
Surv perks keep getting nerfed. Maps are getting smaller, with more deadzones and less loops, yet every new Killer has some sort of strong anti-loop and hinderance while the last few Killers have outright insane map traversal powers despite the obtusely smaller maps. The dozens of aura perks that killers have now, for doing basically any action, completely ruins any hide and seek aspect which then leads into looping and how gutted that has become.
Gen spawns are also insane, literally gens being mere meters from each other on most maps so Killers can easily patrol a 3 gen, it's not as if that's because SoloQ is gen rushing every game lol
Tunneling/Slugging/Camping haven't been addressed in any meaningful way, which is entirely because of SWF as any buff to the Surv role in general, would buff SWF even more, which BHVR can't have.
It's very rare to see a Killer go for 12 hooks, they all slug/tunnel/camp because it's the most effective thing as it's one of the only ways to slow a SWF team so ofc it's going to decimate a SoloQ team; so Killers do it and then it carries over into SoloQ matches which then become a nightmare.
Also SWF do get exclusive perks, they get a a dozen perks without equipping them simple by communicating, let alone all the other types of information they get. Also, that stat about SWF isn't a gotcha, it literally is a point that backs me up; SWF kill rates are because the game has been balanced around them, which is again why SoloQ is a complete disgusting nightmare lol BHVR also doesn't release real stats for SoloQ, as most SoloQ matches are filled with DC's which don't count towards any stat.
So, as maps/killers/perks are rebalanced and you claim that SWF escape rates are 50%, would that not indicate that the game is being balanced around SWF? Is it really that big of a mystery as to why SoloQ is a nightmare and everyone is either DCing or "going next"?
1 -
That's not a real reason. Why am I penalized for playing in SoloQ and that's all well and good, but if SWF's were penalized for playing in SWF, that's all of a sudden forbidden? That's a fallacy you've conjured as a fake talking point. Game balance is game balance.
An even worse business move is to alienate all your SoloQ and Killer players in favor of SWF, which we are beginning to see the fruits of that labor. You are not boosting up SoloQ to SWF levels, that is impossible while also not boosting up SWF and I hate to break it to you, while I think that perks should be viewable between Survs in the lobby, if implemented without addressing SWF and SoloQ properly, it's going to just cause lobby dodges between Survs and longer queues.
It's also hilarious that you state subpar buffs to SoloQ and then suggest that Killers would then need buffs to compensate, Killers aren't having a tough time against 4 rando's, bud. All the complaining is attributed to SWF matches.
0 -
SWF does provide more of a challenge and is more entertaining than soloQ, unless you’re into those snorefest 3-4ks.
0 -
Surv perks keep getting nerfed. Maps are getting smaller, with more deadzones and less loops, yet every new Killer has some sort of strong anti-loop and hinderance while the last few Killers have outright insane map traversal powers despite the obtusely smaller maps. The dozens of aura perks that killers have now, for doing basically any action, completely ruins any hide and seek aspect which then leads into looping and how gutted that has become.
can we stop with this agenda, please? It's really obvious that people doing it are only baiting or are intentionally refusing to read any kind of survivor buff in patch notes because of...that agenda. That's what you are doing now too.
Additionally, looping isn't gutted at all, average player just never knew how to loop anything besides M1 killers.
And in terms of aura reading perks on killer side, only truly red flags are Nowhere to Hide and Predator (especially due to their synergy with Nurse).
Gen spawns are also insane, literally gens being mere meters from each other on most maps so Killers can easily patrol a 3 gen, it's not as if that's because SoloQ is gen rushing every game lol
how many killers will you see actually patrolling a 3-gen? Like let's be fr. On top of that, gen spawns are more or less the same they used to be, while most times it's survivors locking themselves in a 3-gen.
Tunneling/Slugging/Camping haven't been addressed in any meaningful way, which is entirely because of SWF as any buff to the Surv role in general, would buff SWF even more, which BHVR can't have.
ohhh my dear, with the introduction of StB perk, there is absolutely no excuse for you to lose against a tunneling killer other than pure lack of skill.
Slugging has made it's way to meta because forcing hooks has gone down in terms of usefulness.
Camping? Let me think. None of teammates working gens against camping killer, none of teammates knowing when to trade hooks, or sometimes...you going next on hook :)
It's very rare to see a Killer go for 12 hooks, they all slug/tunnel/camp because it's the most effective thing as it's one of the only ways to slow a SWF team so ofc it's going to decimate a SoloQ team; so Killers do it and then it carries over into SoloQ matches which then become a nightmare.
why would killers go for 12 hooks? Because that paves the way for your easier win? Because they just handicap themselves that way? Why do you split gens early instead of deciding to not work on them for like...a minute or two? This is your logic btw. And let's be honest, none of these strategies would decimate a good soloQ team, unless we are talking about slugging with Knock Out.
Also SWF do get exclusive perks, they get a a dozen perks without equipping them simple by communicating, let alone all the other types of information they get. Also, that stat about SWF isn't a gotcha, it literally is a point that backs me up; SWF kill rates are because the game has been balanced around them, which is again why SoloQ is a complete disgusting nightmare lol BHVR also doesn't release real stats for SoloQ, as most SoloQ matches are filled with DC's which don't count towards any stat.
game isn't balanced around SWF only because they are strong, but also because they are much more reliable sample than soloQ. Why would BHVR balance their game over a corrupt sample where your teammates are allergic to gens, give up on first hook and play for whichever challenge it is instead of...just normally playing the game? Think about it.
So, as maps/killers/perks are rebalanced and you claim that SWF escape rates are 50%, would that not indicate that the game is being balanced around SWF? Is it really that big of a mystery as to why SoloQ is a nightmare and everyone is either DCing or "going next"?
wanna truly know why people are going next so easily? Because there is no punishment for giving up on hook. Because they are incapable of dealing with their burnout from playing this game too mich by actually taking a break from it, people don't wanna find another game to fill the void. That's the biggest reason, other things are usually just excuses for coping with it.
1 -
That’s not a real reason
player attraction and retention is an important business decision in any game development process.
Why is soloq penalized and not SWF, you’re conjuring a fallacy
Start by knowing what a fallacy is. And as I said, the proper solution is to buff solo queue so that it doesn’t feel miserable to play. Read my full post before replying.
An even worse business move is to alienate everyone else in favor of SWF
Good thing they’re not doing that then! SWF does not have a significantly higher winrate and the complaints about SWF are mostly minimal from people who are not very experienced on killer.
It is not possible to boost soloq to SWF without buffing SWF
It is though. Simply give soloq information that SWF would already have. Perk builds, more accurate UI info, etc. Once you can effectively match comms, the only advantage SWF has is knowing you have good teammates, which wouldn’t be an advantage if the matchmaking was good.
Perk viewing will cause lobby dodging
So show it in the escape menu once the match has started. If a survivor DCs or quits because they see a no mither or similar they could have done that already.
It’s hilarious that you state subpar buffs to solo queue
As described above, bringing soloQ buffs that make up for not having comms are not subpar. Hell, the UI buffs we got have already increased solo queue efficiency in a lot of my games, with more players waiting at exit gates as a gen is about to pop, etc. If you don’t know this you might be in a low MMR bracket.
Killers aren’t having a tough time against 4 randos
But they are, at least the bad ones. Stats show that 4 man SWFs are the rarest to encounter as killer, yet there are many complaints from killers about SWF when the survivors play well but aren’t in a SWF. I’ve seen this myself as well.
SWF complaints aside, killers can and do lose to 4 randoms. All it takes is 4 people who are decent and are playing to win rather than for archives, and you will struggle on a low tier killer.
2 -
And you only see a strong one, much less one at all, maybe one out of every 12 matches. Streamers that play this game for a living get around one every 8-9.
So the OP definetely had one bad match amongst hundreds.2 -
Throw in an in game vc requirement and im down. Or better idea, just show more info on the HUD. Anti camp meters, gen regressions near teammates, show hemorrhage affecting a survivor's healing progress. So much creativity that can fix solo queue.
0 -
I really am baffled why players don't understand that SWF teams are the end game, high mmr challenge. If you're getting them, then you've probably been stomping otherwise. SWF is the only thing that will challenge a killer who continually wins their games.
I wish mods would just auto delete SWF hate threads. If you get these teams often, just believe you're high mmr and smile. You're probably not, as these seal team 6 teams are like 1 in 1000, but the ego is a fickle thing, and you probably can't cope. Its normal, so dont worry too much.
7 -
The Kill rates everyone boasts about regarding SWF would actually have SWF not challenging a Killer more than half the time, so while SWF is end game, the game is catered around them, which is why the game is having huge issues rn.
0 -
Define huge issues? The huge issues I see are the bugs plaguing the game, the horrible map designs, and hooks not having any real value.
How does swf factor into this at any point? They are your end game. If you dislike SWF and are getting them often, tank your MMR a bit. Thats a solution to your immediate issue. The others I listed have no real fix like this.
So, are priorities in the right place? Do you disagree, and if so I'd love to chat! Thank you :)
2 -
"Who's with me?"
I thought you didn't want people teaming up anymore?
5 -
It's like the same people, with clearly multiple alts, not reading anything and just making comments lol I'm not explaining for the upteenth time how maps/perks/loops have been nerfed, while Killers have been not only buffed from that but how most have gotten reworks that have been buffs. I've already stated it a handful of times just to met by "no uh". It's like none of you play the actual game outside of your SWF, which makes complete sense judging by the type of replies I get.
Killers are all miserable and sweaty, running games off of trying to purely ruin the other parties time investment and SoloQ is the worst it's even been despite the "buffs" given to it. If you can't see how SWF factors into this, then I think the discussion is out of your depth.
0 -
I think we're just talking about two separate things. Im saying SWF is not as big a problem as the other things I mentioned. Im also saying SWF is the 'end game boss' for killers who win win win.
Lets just stick with that. Killers win win win and then get swf swf swf. This is the design. This is natural progression. Start by stomping solo'q and pubs, and then the SWFs come out and actually give you challenge.
Complaints about SWF will continue because killers, while having its easy as hell right now, want more. If SWF's we're -fixed-, it would be something else. Probably Survivor base moevement speed. Survivors shouldn't be able to turn as fast because blight can't. You name it.
0
