General Discussions
General Discussions
yay guys, more anti-killer changes coming soon
first of all, YES the anti-slug surrender option is fine and cool. not gonna talk about that.
the roadmap has another segment in phase two which talks about "anti tunneling and anti camping"
and I wonder, when will the devs get the message that killers are doing these things because the whole "play nice go for multiple people" idea has been probably the most bullshit thing in the history of this game?
killer literally does not have the ability to do that against any competent team because KEEPING THE GAME A 1V4 MAKES THE GENS FLY. has nothing to do with skill, despite what many community members will tell you.
also yeah, keep nerfing tunnel/camp because we haven't been doing that every update. survivors get new meta perks to use against it nearly every chapter along with basekit features to counter it, guess it is still not enough.
we've nerfed nearly every slowdown perk the killer has and the expectation is for them to play even NICER.
its also only seen as a problem when the killers go for their objective quickly, not the survivors of course. where's my "anti-genrush"? oh wait "genrush" is fine because that's just the survivors doing their objective right, but when the killer does the same without bending their back over to make the match "fun" for everyone else then they're an evil toxic tunneler and deserve to be punished with EVEN MORE.
I see nothing on this roadmap hinting at buffs for play styles that are "healthy" such as spreading hooks around and going for multiple chases. If that's the way they want people to play the game then BUFF THOSE STRATEGIES, stop NERFING the other strats that people use because the first one is terrible.
killers try to play nice, every gen slowdown which allowed this to an extent is nerfed. killers tunnel/slug because the "playing nice" strategy sucks, we introduce 70 things which impede them from doing that. killers dont wanna even hook anymore because it enables like 20 different survivor meta perks? yeah, lets nerf that too. if you want us to behave in a certain way then maybe start giving the carrot instead of relentless beatings with the stick.
Comments
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To answer the question about the anti-genrush, did you see the part of the roadmap where they talk about addressing survivor spawns so that they can't all spawn spread out anymore?
Even if we define genrushing as just survivors doing their objective efficiently (instead of the more reasonable and actually useful definition of bringing stacked toolboxes with supporting perks), that's gonna be a huge knock to the team's ability to get the ball rolling. With that change implemented, the average killer early game will go substantially more in their favour.
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not bad but still pales in comparison to the number of tools survivor has gotten in the past 3 years
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Anti gen rush is already in the game, and had existed so long people take it for granted.
There's a base kit, stacking repair penalty for survivors grouping up on gens.
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that's why splitting up on gens lets you genrush even more efficiently :)
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Weird how the top 3 killer perks are some of those useless slowdown perks. Surge, Grim, DMS, and Deadlock all in the top 15 too.
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I have to commend them for actually doing something, for actually having some kind of vision. But yeah, the implied changes to slugging, camping, tunneling which don't need to be nerfed any more than they are kind of hurts that image of progress. I am very excited to see what they do with MMR though.
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Anti slug is needed but this is not the option to promote good game health.
Why would this stop a killer slugging all survivors at 5/4 gens which has seen an increase in recent months? Why is it going to stop the killer slugging the final two survivors for the 4K when all survivors can just surrender and the killer still gets to walk away with their 4K BP? Why’s this going to stop survivors hiding by just moving round so they don’t get idle crows? It’s not. It’s an absolute waste of time for BHVR as it is not going to solve the issues at hand.
However, given they’re also choosing to just reveal the location of survivors when ‘Survivors (are) drawing out an unwinnable match by ignoring their objective and waiting out the clock’ rather than address why a match with half the team left in it is considered unwinnable shows that they have no interest in addressing the issues but wallpapering over the cracks.
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Yes, because they are necessary but even still, they are not nearly as effective as they used to be and these "anti-tunnel" and "anti-slug" things are likely to only be a bandaid, instead of addressing the REASON killers feel the need to do these things.
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They already did that. 90% of the time, I spawn in the exact same corner as my other 3 teammates.
And I don't want to see survivors punished* for doing their objective efficiently, like we see in 2v8 with the forced slowdown. I just think in general gens need to be slower. Or if it's SWF who always do the gens like 2-5 minutes earlier than solos, they clearly need to be looked at, and debuffed.
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keep nerfing tunnel/camp because we haven't been doing that every update
Continued intervention is only necessary because no matter how many carrots BHVR dangles or sticks BHVR pokes with, killers keep refusing to play nice. And, to an extent, I get it. Tunnelling, slugging etc. take little effort for the reward they net you. But that's exactly why they need to go. The easiest strategy to do should not get you consistent wins. That should come from skill and effort instead.
The thing forcing BHVR's hand here are the killers who refuse to improve and instead rely on getting one survivor out ASAP and winning the entire game through that action alone. It was cheesy in 2016, has been cheesy for 8 years, and now it's time to do away with it.
And for the record, camping and tunneling aren't necessary to win. A good chunk of us do just fine without it and always have. It's an easy and cheap way to win, sure. But with a little practice you absolutely do not need to do it.
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Pro-survivor, not anti-killer. Stop with the victim complex. DBD already is killer-sided in pub matches.
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"killers keep refusing to play nice"
and can we blame them? why would anyone want to spread hooks when that enables meta perks on every survivor and keeps the game a 1v4 for as long as possible. why would they want to do it when every perk which rewarded them for hooking has been nerfed. why would they want to do it when hook stages have been increased to 70 seconds. most importantly, why would they want to purposely slow their objective to please the other side when that other side never shows the same courtesy ?10 -
Oh, come on. You cannot really say that Survivors are that strong in 2025 or that they received Buffs. Even if things came into the game which might speed up progression (can you enlighten me what you mean? Most of them are Noobtraps), Killers got way more in the past 3 years. Even longer.
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Reminder:
Anti-slug will only likely impact the extreme cases, as they explained in the post.
Anti-camp will likely just be a smaller improvement to the already existing AFC mechanic.
As for the anti-tunnel, I'm not sure what will it do.
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We're trying to get y'all to understand that just because people still cling to using these perks, as a pipe dream, because they're the "strongest" or "most reliable," that doesn't mean they're actually really strong. The bar has gone way, way down for killer stuff that's considered strong. And that's because there's a narrative about killer that if something is strong, then it must be OP and needs nerfing. We saw it with Wraith, Spirit, Clown's add-ons, Blight's add-ons, Twins, Dracula, gen defence perks, chase perks, info perks, etc. You're not allowed to have a decently strong killer thing. Only survivors can.
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youre right, im really not gonna say that, because if I had to list every tool the survivors were granted to make the killer objective harder in the past 3 years then id have quite a long list.
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The bottom of the image they posed has “and more…” which means some Killer issues will also be addressed. We will still be getting other balance changes along the way I presume.
I think a lot of the issues they posted about were prioritizing longstanding issues for new players and SoloQ which were commonly talked about leading to repressed of the FNAF Chapter. Since SoloQ/new player Survivor is a miserable experience that has been long overdue for adjustments.5 -
Oh, please do. I still want to know. Can you also add since when you are playing this game?
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"and more…" does not mean that killer issues are included
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been playing since Ghostface chapter, 3.5k+ hours on the game, maybe you should just google "meta survivor perks 2025" and see how many activate upon getting unhooked :)
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Please, enlighten me. I sadly dont know how to google something, because I am pretty old. :( So give me a list and I can look at your points and give counterpoints.
Or, you just say "It is how I say, I dont need to proof" and I assume you dont have any proof. Your choice. :)
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I think I will say the latter. I'm already responding to like 3 other people who, despite disagreeing with me, are not blind and can actually see the impact of what survivors have received within the past 3 years. I don't need to go out of my way to explain it to someone who can't.
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Well, first thing is that there haven't been any patches to introduce new perks this year yet.
Since I assume you meant 2024, the only "meta" perk in about 3 years was MFT and that was subsequently nerfed out of the meta. The last one before that was CoH.
Maybe "finesse" is what you're thinking of? Mind blowing amounts of value regardless, since I had to stretch back 3 years to come up with maybe one minor example.
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hahahah youre joking right? shoulder the burden? off the record? reassurance? background player? "no meta perks" hahahahahaha.
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WE GETTING READY FOR FNAF WITH THIS ONE 🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣🗣
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Exactly. And at least for CoH it was quite clear that the Perk was more of a Cashgrab than anything else, since it was mainly there to push the sales of Mikaela, who was released in a Solo-Chapter. (And it was probably not even needed, given how popular she is)
People might argue that it is the same for MfT, since it was an Anniversary Chapter, but IMO it is way weaker than other Cashgrab-Perks like CoH or MoM and other original Anniversary Chapters did not have such a strong Survivor-Perk (or Killer-Perk). You really have to go back in time a lot to find a new Meta-Perk, even nowadays the most popular Perks on Survivor are years old.
Killers on the other hand get decent Perks frequently. (Even tho, it should obviously be added that a huge factor is that Killers play differently so a Perk which might not be Meta on every Killer will still be really good on some Killers)
While on Survivor the only time you see new Perks is when people are doing Doomposting on the Forums.
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I can't have strong killer things, as killers have
Higher winstreaks on every killer than survivors have escape streaks.Higher average kill rates
More bp per average match
At every level of play killers are advantaged, with the possible exception of the highest comp(lol) levels. Like sorry you can't beat Ayrun's swf, but I really don't care when the normal experience is weighted so stupidly to killers.
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as a survivor main, camping and tunnelling didn’t need more addressing. It’s fine how it is.
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Doesn't necessarily mean it'll only be the stick. Could introduce carrots in there too.
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There seems to be a wide number of changes aimed at addressing grievances on both sides.
We'll have to see the specifics, but I'm pretty hopeful for the changes. AFC was effective without feeling super overbearing, maybe these new rounds of changes will be similar. I'm somewhat sceptical until we see more details later down the line, though.
Taking aim at the major ways for killers to create and maintain pressure all at once without anything to counteract it might end up being disastrous. Despite what some may think, I am of the opinion that they are necessary in a lot of situations and removing them entirely would make the gameplay feel railroaded.
These strategies need to be less effective at their highest potential against the more casual lobbies without making Survivors invincible at the higher levels of play.
Survivor spawns being fixed will be a pretty significant buff to killers at the higher end of play, without affecting the lower ranks as much, which is the ideal target of a change.
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BHVR is most likely going to make balance changes while these updates are being rolled out, this includes potentially nerfing Survivor toolboxes to repair slower, and changing Survivor perks to not make Generator speeds as problematic.
Furthermore, one of the Killer’s biggest issues, splitting Generators, thus making pressure harder to maintain, is going to be slightly addressed (at least in the early game) by making Survivors spawn closer together naturally (grouped up Survivors leads to more pressure).
Dark maps, which were the bane of many Killers, especially on Console, is also being addressed by implementing a Gamma setting to make the game brighter or darker depending on the needs of the user. Technically this can benefit Survivor but this is far more beneficial for Killer players since finding the Survivors is naturally more important.
Map Offerings, a thing that is mostly complained about from the Killer’s perspective, are being nerfed to be a slight chance instead of it being 100% of the time.
I think people are overblowing the changes, people act like Killer is going to evaporate but BHVR has already announced that they plan on addressing some grievances for Killer and will probably do even more than what is listed based on community feedback.
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When bhvr has recent changes like the skull merchant, sorry I'm not inclined to put faith bhvr cares to keep the killer role in mind. If they had more killer changes it would have been better if they put them upfront rather than hidden.
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I’m not saying BHVR is perfect.
I think most (sensible) people can agree that Skull Merchant was over-nerfed and gutted completely when they were functionally a weak Killer.
And even lately, as a Demo main, still dealing with the Crouch-Tech (in fact it was made even worse to deal with now) while BHVR is telling us that it is fixed (it isn’t).
But in the same boat, I feel like these changes are also needed, they make the game easier for new players to understand and draws more people into playing and enjoying the game. It serves to make the game more accessible which I’m all for. But many, many people are acting like it is doom and gloom for Killers when we still don’t have all the information yet.
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A lot of killers are indeed strong enough to keep up even without hard tunneling or camping a survivor out of the match.
Tunneling and camping are a problem at a fundamental level, and shouldn't just be addressed with perks. If these changes really end up nerfing tunneling and camping in a significant way, the game would already be in such a better spot.
If killers start struggling too much, then they can still buff killers in different ways as well. But changes to tunneling and camping are absolutely needed. This might finally be the the year where DBD really reaches most of it's potential. Maybe. I am at least somewhat hopeful.
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That doesn't mean these perks are good, there just isn't anything better to run. Pain Res in particular is overrated. There are so many different factors that make the perk unreliable such as hook Spawn RNG, you're more vulnerable to Sabo going for one, and sometimes the survivors finish a gen right before you get the hook and it works on a gen with zero progress and you got no value
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it’s very cool that every time killers come up with any kind of tactic or strategy or perk synergy that survivors don’t like, bhvr swoops in to nerf it out of existence
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took 5 years to nerf dead hard btw
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I'd really love to see gameplay of people who claim they're beating good coordinated teams using stacked meta perks and map offerings to Autohaven/MacMillan/Badham/Gideon/GoJ while going for 12 hooks and never tunneling/proxy camping/slugging/3 genning. Unless you're an extremely good player with an S tier killer, you've lost before the game has started. 5 - 7 hooks is about as good as you can hope for with 0 kills playing like that
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And when it was nerfed it was still s tier. When killer perks get nerfed, they get dumpstered
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There's nothing ANTI Killer about this. These are great changes. I never needed to rely on any of this stuff to get kills. Just don't be cheesy. Use your head a bit when you play killer.
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pain res only works 4 times pop requires hook + walking to a gen you want to regress and surge eats through the 8 "kick" system like crazy and requires being in a certain radius aka its rng and non reliable the only reason most killers run these because without them the game would be over after the 2/3rd chase.
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The game will self-balance as it has always done. If killers are not able to do 12 hooks, they will look for other alternatives. The Rancor roulette and end-game builds are still a possibility, and both will cause a stir if they become meta.
As long as there is no base-kit Unbreakable, I don't care which option they propose. But I'm sure that they will add something more aside the bleed-out or surrender options.
In the worst-case scenario, the killrate decline will force them to make drastic balance changes. Although, many survivors are probably not ready for matches with chases that never exceeds the 20 seconds mark. If they want 12-hook matches and nothing is going to be done about the repair time, killers are going to have to be much more oppressive.
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and can we blame them?
Honestly?
Yes, we can.
Because this argument about the game being unplayable gets trotted out every single time, when killers were actually less likely to tunnel and camp back before 6.1, before killers got a bunch of basekit buffs. This proselytising isn't born from any kind of actual imbalance in the game as competent killers can win consistently without camping/tunnelling/slugging, some even doing it, for sport, without ANY killer power.
The entire game has been underpinned with these godawful strategies that are terrible for gameplay and worse for balance. They should've been gone many years ago, but the second best time is now.
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Pain Res still the top killer perk by a mile after 4 years, almost as long as dead hard.
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I guess every B tier killer is going to be F tier once anti camping and anti tunneling hits live
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"Infused with controversy, this thread is"-sayeth Yoda. The wise hens presiding nod their heads in solemn agreeance.
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Pain Res got its impact massively front loaded to the beginning of the match where its more important. then you pile on 2 or 3 of the other perks that ALL SYNERGIZE, and if you get an early hook you can coast to a win by just proxy and tunnel that first survivor out..
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Nightlight is not a reliable source of this information for 1, and for 2, the meta shift is currently in progress, it isn't finished. Remember when dead hard started off at 10% usage until over time it became nearly 50% usage?
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so in the end half of this relies up to rng and tunneling the first survivor wont work most of the time if their team has over 1iq with all the second chances survivors get by simply being unhooked nowadays (god forbid their deathhook state isnt taken away by shoulder the burdon)
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there is no unincentive without punishing the killer side, because it's punishing unfun strategies for survivors.
i agree that "fair" strategies need some buffs for killers, but i also believe that bhvr can't implement them before they implement everything in operation health. once that's done then they can add things for killers to make matches more dynamic and give them a fair opportunity at a 4k. either making killers stronger one by one or adding more things like the anti-hiding and survivor spawn logic (which are actual changes to combat killer current complaints).
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