Because they may not be good for the game. If you nuke every killer strategy with no buffs to a healthy playstyle, people just won't play killer. We know because it already happened. I remember waiting 15 minutes in queue with my SWF to play survivor because there weren't a lot of killers. They made 6.1 because they had to

I swear I'm the only player on here who's a decent surv but a lousy killer, and almost everyone else is apparently top-level 27000 high MMR monsters getting nothing but super sweaty crack killers and super sweaty 4-man bully squads every match.

They kept playing the game though. That's the point I was making.

We both know I was a lousy Survivor too lmao

Yes, that is why I said disabled in EGC or after gens are done.

Endurance system stays after gens are done to prevent hooked Survivors from just being dead, but otherwise yes, it can go. Serves no purpose.

You are a skilled killer I've seen you go. Yeah when it comes to surv you knew what to do but I'd say you have no special skill or love for the role that's true!

It's really a shame that camping, tunneling and slugging will only be decided in the second phase. Too long to wait. It was bound to happen eventually. This is coming from a camping, tunneling and slugging guy.

For the killer defenders, I have only one thing to say. We need to throw all doubts aside and give the survivors full rein. If it all turns out to be a disaster, at least we'll have a real reason to argue. It'll be so much fun, like the end of the old ranking system :) Trust me, it'll be worth it. I've been there. You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

It's just that this years-long stagnation doesn't add up to much anyway. Something needs to change. What's the point of all this recrimination? No matter what we say here, one constant fact will not change. When we load into the game. Someone will suffer. The survivor or the killer. It doesn't matter, but one side will definitely suffer. The only question is, who will take the role of the martyr?

Perhaps this is our chance to break this vicious circle?

I can only say one thing to the survivors. We cannot be saved. We are a relic of the old DBD era, when camping, tunneling and slugging were not considered something shameful. A relic of the old days. We are too mired in all this to try to convince us or reason with us. We just have different value systems. People who prioritize efficiency and are ready to do anything to win.

Thanks to what the developers are preparing for you, you have a chance to get rid of us and create the DBD that you want.

Therefore, it is time for the survivors to start raising a new generation of killers that should replace us. Stop wasting your energy on us. This is counterproductive. Better start raising new killers who will bring fun gameplay to the survivors. After all, even the appearance of dislikes on the forum is intended to remove all the supporters of the killers on this forum. Most likely, over time, there will be fewer and fewer of them.

A practical question for those who want to think. I'm more interested in the practical and what can be done.

Tell me what I should do with them when anti-slug, tunneling and camping are introduced? My games often give me such gifts. What should I do with them when the second phase goes into effect?

I characterized these matches with a word. Pyrrhic victory. You know, that feeling of tasting ashes, where you won, but do not feel the joy of victory at all.

Especially tell me what you think about the very top game with 4 purple offerings. Who of us is to blame. Me or the survivors? I just have a rule. I wait the entire first phase for a 4% chance to save before giving the hook to the next survivor. Especially when the survivors are trying to make me miserable. I had an unpleasant experience with the 4% trigger. So in some cases, I play it safe.

I believe the statement generally reflects that at the core, survivors have all the tools available to them to always succeed and killers do not. True, nobody plays perfectly, but survivors have the capability of being unbeatable, while killers inherently do not. In other words, if a survivor just simply cannot win, it's because they need to improve on their skillsets provided to them, not because it's impossible to win. Regardless, I do feel that nurse\blight is an exception to this - I genuinely do think they are fundamentally broken and unfair towards survivors at all levels. That is just my opinion, however. Beyond that, I feel that a lot of survivor complains about killers being impossible to beat comes down to just needing more experience. I used to get my butt HANDED to be as a survivor until I went out of my way to truly learn the game - that opened a LOT of possibilities and my success rate shot up after I started mastering looping, check spots, seeing hook states as a resource, and so on instead of just seeing "gen" as "the" gameplay. I just feel that many in the community don't want to make that effort. Just in the thread recently, I made the comment that certain perks have counters that can be used to overcome them, and boy did the community hate that idea - just downvotes upon downvotes. Survivors seriously have a lot of power - if one works on practicing all the tools made available to them, their gameplay would improve significantly.

Tell me what I should do with them when anti-slug, tunneling and camping are introduced? My games often give me such gifts. What should I do with them when the second phase goes into effect?

Well, consider what we Survivors did when 6.1.0 dropped.  What did we do when MFT was nerfed?  What did we do when FTP+Buckle Up was nerfed?  What did we do when self-healing and Distortion was nerfed, among other things?  We adapted and learned to play around it.

On the flipside, what did you Killers do when basekit BT was introduced?  What did you do when the anti-FACEcamp mechanic was introduced, or the 8-regression event limit was introduced?  You still found ways to play around it.  And I have no doubt that you'll do the same with whatever new system they come out with.

Unless, of course, you do decide to uninstall DBD, in which case, so long, and thanks for all the hooks.

You are right in some ways. We are adapting. The real question is, are you sure that the strategy that will replace the three sad tactics will not become an even worse tactic for survivors? During the fight against sad killer tactics, the situation is only getting worse. A year ago, all killers did not even consider slug as a tactic. Now we are in the very center of the slug epidemic. Killers are not trying to get on the path to correction.

This raises a lot of interesting questions that survivors don't usually think about.

Why do only camping, tunneling and slug killers play on the killer side? Honestly, this causes some dissonance for me. I also play for a survivor and for some reason do not see killers of 12 hooks of fun in my games. But campers, tunnelers and others like me I meet in almost every game.

What's wrong with DBD that only campers and tunnelers are ready to play as killers?

I'm glad that forum fighters don't do this, but I only see you on forums. In my games, I only meet people who are like me. Which makes me think about a lot and look at the situation in perspective. I've been in DBD for a long time and I remember a lot of things. History tends to repeat itself. I'm patient enough to wait even if it takes several years.

I've long decided for myself that I'll be in DBD until the very end. Despite all the hatred and witch hunt that the survivors are ready to unleash on those who disagree with them. With a smile on their lips despite all the difficulties of this situation.

"Learning counters to 38 killers, plus all perks, add-ons, and playstyles, is a trial-by-fire experience."

100% agree. Survivors have a LOOOOOOOOT to learn - a massive amount to learn - in order to reliably succeed on the regular. Putting time into that will absolutely show positive results, but there isn't a lot of people with that much patience or time. There's a reason that a lot of the community says that 500 hours of DBD means you are no longer a "beginner". While that seems "the accepted truth" in DBD, putting that logic vs other games…the reality of it is just bonkers…most people don't even PLAY games for 500+ hours, ha. The point though is, by design, the survivors literally have the advantage over the killers (talking SWF here considering the game is balanced around SWF), but the amount of experience it takes to reliably do that isn't exactly fair….scratch that…isn't remotely fair for the casual playerbase (which is why BHVR tends to balance around the average player and not vs the experienced players). That's why so many high tier players who play killer complain, but their requests go ignored - BHVR isn't balancing around high tier play - they are balancing around the average player. So it's true that survivors absolutely have all the tools to just stomp killers, but it's unrealistic to expect the average player to ever get enough experience on survivor to ever reach that point. As for players who excel at DBD and move beyond the average player, they start falling into broken balance territory which won't be changed to avoid hurting the average player base. So generally, it's a skill issue, sure, but the amount of time it takes to invest to overcome killers on the regular most players simply either aren't willing or aren't able to apply. Again, 500 hours is becoming "decent" at the game…a claim that would be ridiculous in 99% of the games out there but rings true in DBD.

"I don't agree with the claim that survivors can be 'unbeatable,' to then immediately contradict it by admitting that Nurse and Blight exist and are exceptions to that very rule."

There are always exceptions to rules, that's what makes them exceptions. There's also the phrase of the exception that proves the rule.

"To be honest, the claim that survivors just need to put in effort to win does rub me the wrong way as I feel it ignores a major disparity: killers have multiple ways to practice."

I seriously feel that survivors should have the ability to do killer bot matches to practice outside of the tutorial. It'd be awesome if BHVR came out with some ingame scenarios on looping and such - even if they outsourced it to volunteer players to put it together for them.

"Every kind of statistical evidence, along with both my personal experience, contradicts the idea that killers always lack the tools to succeed while survivors always have them. Survivors and killers both require skill, experience, and game knowledge to perform well."

You have have misunderstood this point. I'm talking about if you assume 100% skill, knowledge, and experience, and both teams have that, the SWF has the clear advantage over an equal level killer. Teamwork and the tools survivors have simply trump the majority of killers (nurse\blight being the exception). The trick is having that skill, knowledge, and experience…which as I mentioned the average player will not. I'm just saying design-wise, survivors do have the upper-hand. The rest is up to the players to utilize those tools appropriately to succeed. Some are crazy good at it - some dedicated SWFs have 500+ wins in a row.

I appreciate the well mannered discussion. Nice to see on the forum - even if we don't see eye to eye. Cheers!

Edit - While I claim to be a killer main, my playtime is more like 60% killer 40% survivor, and over the past 2 months, I've only played survivor.

People call for nerfs for Blight and Nurse ALL THE TIME despite the fact that the vast majority of players, especially on console, has no ability to ever play them to the level where they're actually problematic. In contrast, calling for nerfs for 4-man SWF is met with cries of "you can't punish people playing with friends!!! You'll kill the game!!!"

Playing in a 4-man SWF to get to a level where they're a significant problem for the balance of the game is considerably easier than trying to become a console giga Blight or something. You just need to get on comms with 3 other people, run a whole bunch of 2nd chance perks, communicate basic stuff like where the killer is and where the gen that's regressing is at, hold w and pre drop. That's it. It doesn't take a lot and you will wipe 90% of the killer roster. You can even make it easier by throwing on an Eyrie or Badham offering.

People do still like to heal, in general.

Hypothetically I might agree that staying injured is often a smart choice, at least temporarily, but in my experience in both roles the survivors typically like to heal when they can.