http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why are people complaining about camping slugging and tunneling
First off it depends on the killer and the type of survivors you go against and also it’s not really a big deal there’s nothing wrong with it. If it’s killers like nurse, billy, oni or bubba then I can understand why it’s a problem but if it’s a killer like wraith pig ghostface etc I don’t think survivors should complain because 9 out of 10. A lot of survivors of many tools against M1 killers. Plus there’s nothing wrong with tunneling if you don’t want gens fly by too fast. It’s ok to slug for a 4k there’s nothing wrong with that. And camping for a kill or 2 is nothing wrong with that either. The problem is some survivors expect certain kilelrs to not earn a kill by doing so. So basically you just got to do what you have to do.
Answers
-
Because it's boring.
13 -
Killer main here. I agree slugging is boring, but I also feel like it's kind of a necessary evil sometimes, especially when dealing with SWFs. Plenty of people make entire team loadouts designed around denying hooks. Stuff like Decisive Strike, Background Player, Breakout, sabo builds, flashlights. There are a LOT of ways to deny killers hooks, and killers don't have nearly as many options to block the survivor equivalent of generators with the gen kick nerf (Granted, I'm not advocating for Chess Merchant meta either).
I feel like it depends pretty heavily on the context of the match. If the survivors are tryharding, there's nothing wrong with the killer tryharding as well. If it's obviously a match with a bunch of solo queue players and a killer bleeds all four out, yeah they're a dick.
2 -
95% of the people complaining have never played killer before and don’t understand that there are situations where these tactics are the right play for the killer. They don’t understand that once you get to a level where you are consistently playing against good survivors who know what they are doing that it’s very difficult to secure kills without ever camping, tunneling or slugging.
-5 -
I personally do not mind being tunneled since at least Im being chased, and the only time I get annoyed is if Im working on an achievement or archive, since being tunneled kind of prevents me from working on them.
Meanwhile, I do dislike being camped and being slugged, since there isnt much room to do anything as Survivor.
While Im on the hook, Im effectively in the time-out corner while the Killer does nothing but stare at me on the hook from a moderate distance, there are no interactions since the Killer wont chase anyone, it's just boring, and I play Killer so it is boring from the Killer's POV as well. During EGC, of course, camping is fine, since defending the Exit Gates is insanely difficult if you dont have perks for it, and Im not a fan of "bring X perk to counter Y playstyle or mechanic" as a whole across both sides.
Slugging is similar, you kind of just sit on the ground, recover fully, and then maybe crawl to a better position, but the crawl speed basekit is so unbearable slow that there is basically nothing you can do in a reasonable time. From my experience, I havent dealt with too much slugging outside of slugging for the 4K, which is its own can of worms. Also bleeding a Survivor out for a full 4-minutes instead of ending the game (very rarely happens to me) is just objectively stupid, it wastes everyone's time.
This being said, it is just a game, people can play how they want, if I get upset I can just play another game, and often I do.
0 -
Because it is bad game design.
Tunneling provides a crutch for many Killers to fall back on, this isn't an issue itself. There are plenty of "crutches". The issue stems from how strong tunneling is and how much the game rewards you for doing it. If you can kill someone prior to four gens being finished (2 gens remaining), you will win 999/1000 as a competent Killer. Couple this with the fact that Survivors need to rely on perks for anti-tunnel, with inconsistent effectiveness and you have a extremely strong strategy that is not only difficult to counter but will also win you many games.
Slugging is more recent. Some people have decided that hooking isn't viable anymore because gen regression was nerfed. This is funny, because people still hooked in 2017 when it was Ruin or bust for regression and Survivors were ludicrously OP. Regardless, slugging can be countered via communication…..which most of the playerbase does not have access to. All slugging does is let you punch down on Solo Q and Duos, which a lot of Killers already do. Now, opportunistic slugging? Is it annoying? Sure, but I don't see an issue with it. It is a part of spreading pressure.
Camping is similar to tunneling. It's pretty strong when used efficiently and is a crutch. Proxy'ing forces at least two Survivors into doing nothing, with a likely third on the way. It also ruins the match of the person on hook, as they have basically zero way to play the game. The most efficient thing to do is for the other Survivors to ignore that Survivor on hook and let them die. That is horrific design, it promotes zero interaction between the Survivors and Killers, plus it ruins the game of the person on hook.
15 -
I don't disagree with you, but I play solo survivor and in my experience the biggest problem with this behavior is that it's boring. OP asked why people complain, and there's the answer.
I don't play killer precisely because it feels stressful and difficult, so I totally understand why killers feel the need to do it. That doesn't mean it's any less boring, though. And that doesn't mean the complaints from survivors are invalid.
Not to mention, I feel like the complaints mostly stem from situations where it's absolutely not necessary at all and simply makes the gameplay experience worse, such as camping, slugging, tunneling at 5 gens against a team that is clearly not coordinated whatsoever. It happens a lot in my solo games.
There's a difference between the group of survivors complaining about camping/tunneling/slugging because they experience it in such situations, vs the group of SWF survivors who are essentially just entitled and upset that their strategy is being countered.
I'm surely not alone not minding camping or slugging if I am bringing a so-called "bully build" with my friends. It's totally fair if the killer counters that. But it's frustrating when I'm just trying to play the game normally and the 7th double-speed Blight in a row thinks that not getting a 4K is the end of the world.
Honestly though? Camping is not really an issue anymore, in my opinion (though it depends on the killer and if you're in the basement). I find slugging to be the worst, with tunneling a close second. I'm not even the one getting tunneled, most of the time. It's usually the baby survivor with 40 hours getting tunneled, making the match a 3v1 in a short amount of time which just signals to me that the match is pretty much over if the killer knows what they're doing.
2 -
It sounds to me like we're both pretty much in fundamental agreement as far as when slugging is acceptable and not. It all comes down to etiquette and people going into matches with an aggressive aura that players will need to match. I also understand a killer going in sweating against solo q players, especially those with less experience, is a much taller order to match that energy.
I feel like the answer comes with having better solo q communication options, while nerfing SWF bully options. If you want my personal opinion, I would gladly take heavy slugging nerfs in exchange for sabotage being removed from the game entirely1 -
I can get behind that. Sabo is fun as survivor, but miserable as killer. I think it's yet another thing that's still in the game despite being severely outdated and just not a really good game mechanic. When the game was less competitive and more focused on the whole horror aspect, it made more sense.
But I don't think it's going to be easy to nerf SWF bully options without gutting a lot of fun mechanics in the game. The problem is the communication as you mentioned, which is why the gap between solo and SWF needs to be bridged. I think BHVR should be a bit bold and daring, testing out a communication feature that allows you to say where you are on the map, what you're going to do, what you need someone else to do, etc. And I don't mean voice chat, but set phrases. I also think you should be able to see your teammates loudout in game (not in lobby, as that promotes lobby dodging) so that you can plan accordingly.
Then, if that works out you can start buffing killers to compensate, as well as encouraging fun gameplay for both sides. That might help but it's hard to say for sure.
1 -
I feel like you can totally nerf SWF bully options without gutting fun mechanics. Off the top of my head, nerf Decisive and OtR's timers so they can't be used nearly as aggressively anymore, Brand New Parts could be nerfed as well, maybe cut Background Player's Haste a little more, and here's the most aggressive one I'd advocate for: Shoulder the Burden makes you exposed until you are put in the Dying state by the killer.
-5 -
I don't really think DS or OTR needs any nerfs. They both immediately deactivate once you do a conspicuous action. There's the bodyblocking problem, yes, but if the killer ignores the survivor, they are either forced to do nothing for the entire duration of the timer or immediately disable one of their perk slots. The bodyblocking is countered by just immediately hitting them (OTR), and/or leaving them on the ground (DS). I think these perks are fine.
Brand new part is… eh. I'm not sure. If anything, you should not be able to use more than one BNP on a gen. The problem with gen regression/progression mechanics is that they are dependent on each other. If you nerf BNP, you will also have to nerf gen regression because both sides use these mechanics to counteract the other side. Survivors bring progression because of regression. Killers bring regression because of progression. Remove either one's toolset, and gens will either fly too fast or will be painfully slow. Maybe my opinion is controversial, but I don't think any perk or item should affect gen speeds. I think gen speeds are something that is so hard to balance right that introducing extra variables in the form of perks and items makes it near impossible to get it right.
I agree with STB though, that perk is in my honest opinion completely busted and can single handedly win games. I don't know what the devs were thinking on that one. It was probably meant to be yet another anti-tunnel perk but it's way too strong for what it does. I don't think any perk should let you transfer a hook stage. It might have to be reworked to be balanced.
-1 -
because it’s an epidemic comparable to the 3 man hatch escape days of unfair and lazy gameplay that can snowball an entire match somewhat unfairly. Some killers love to throw around the excuse of ‘it’s a built in mechanic I’m just using to its most efficient’ well so was the hatch and survivors were doing the same but it was unfair and needed to be changed. So, too, does slugging. IMO tunnelling is far less of an issue.
4 -
It's not because it's boring, if it was due to being boring survivors wouldn't play survivor at all as sitting on gens is boring. Saying it's boring is a copout, the real reason is because survivors lose because they are willing to endure boring mechanics like gen repair if it means they win.
This is further backed up by the fact that so many survivors like to "go next" yet complain when they are tunneled out. So they don't like being tunneled out fast but do want to go next?
-7 -
There's a difference between sitting on gens (which you have agency to do) and being slugged or tunneled (which you have no agency to prevent). Gens are boring, but you can stop doing gens at any point and chase the killer, cleanse a totem, heal someone, etc. You can't do much if you're slugged unless you have a perk that lets you pick yourself up. You can't do much against a tunneling killer if you're not good at looping.
It's not a copout, and it's not about winning for everyone. I have lost many games where the killer did neither of these things and it was still enjoyable to me. Why is it so hard to believe that someone might dislike something in a game exclusively because it's boring, and not because it's something that might make you lose the match?
That argument doesn't make sense to me either, because I've still won games where there's been both tunneling and sluggging. It's not necessarily an automatic win. It's strong, yes, but you're not guaranteed a loss.
4 -
I don't think the timers need a DRASTIC adjustment, I moreso think that 80 seconds for OtR is a little silly. I think 45 seconds for DS and 60 seconds (maybe 50) for OtR is good. Again, I don't wanna gut them, I more want to make them less effective for aggressive use, which is the outlier that I feel is problematic
0 -
Ah okay, I misunderstood you. I thought you meant the stun timer for DS, and for OTR I guess I just brainfarted. I agree with you, then.
1 -
Yeah, I think DS' stun is fine, I wouldn't change the duration the killer is stopped for
1 -
The list of things survivors generally say is boring, gens, totems, mending, healing. Things survivors find fun, being chased and looping. The killer can only chase 1 survivor at a time really, the other 3 are doing the boring things like it or not. If the killer tunnels then that 1 survivor should be having fun because they get chased but they don't because they know there is a high chance they are going out so don't like being tunneled.
Seems like people want to the option to do boring things when it suits them but when they had enough the can opt out. "We want to be chased because gens are boring" I chase them, hook them, they get freed. Now it's "we don't want to he chased we want to do boring gens because we suck at looping"
-5 -
As a killer main, I find it important to mention the fundamental difference when it comes to repairing gens and slugging from a gameplay perspective.
On a generator, you are doing skill checks, which while they aren't hard, failing them can put you in a lot of danger, and even a good skill check can do that depending on killer perks. You're also obviously trying to keep your eyes peeled for where the killer is. Even if they aren't a stealth killer like Ghost Face or Myers, they might be running a perk like Unforeseen or Tinkerer to be Undetectable. You're stationary in a spot of interest, while trying to be aware of your surroundings, lest you realize too late and fail to make it to safety. (This also applies to heals, mends, and totems which you mentioned in another reply)
Meanwhile, as a slug, you have pretty compromised movement and rely on another player to bring you back up in the vast majority of cases. If a killer is watching your slug aggressively, that limits your options even more, especially for insta-down killers like Bubba. This isn't me saying that there aren't times where killers have to slug, but I would say that comparing being slugged to generator repair isn't a good argument.
3 -
Being slugged is a consequence of being caught. If a player is caught they are hooked or slugged. Both of which immobilise the survivor and means they can't play the match unless someone helps. They agree to this when they play survivor.
Repairing gens might involve all those things but its irrelevant when survivors repeatedly say gens are boring they want chases. Probably because skill checks so easy they might as well not exist. People mostly rely on TR, aura perks and HUD display to tell them where the killer is so there is sense of danger or excitement on a gen. This is made even worse with SWF. Either way THEY say gens are boring not me. THEY say they want chases. Then complain when they get caught and say tunneling and slugging is boring. Sorry they pick this role to do gens, if they don't to do them and want chases, fine. But shouldn't complain when they are caught. they know it's not fun being on a hook or slugged. It's part of the role they chose to play.
-6 -
Again, I'm not saying killers can't slug if that's what they need to do to get pressure on the board. I also agree that if a SWF is complaining about slugging, that doesn't carry nearly as much weight, since they went in attempting to tryhard the match anyway. As I mentioned in a previous comment, matching the energy of the other side is fine.
What I'm trying to express is that there's a certain line where slugging for the sake of slugging is just kinda toxic. It depends a LOT on the game state, on what the rest of the team brought, a lot of factors, but it isn't a black and white thing, there's a scale here
0 -
It pretty obvious because solo q have 0 coordination which is needed to counter tactics. I would argue all the tactics have sufficient counterplay when the team have 4 competent teammates (so almost never in solo q). Tactics like slugging and camping can be quite detrimental to do if survivors are well organized. Solo q is a $hit show because u often default lose for not having coordinator plays. Kinda make it feel like skill just don't matter. It about the same feeling when survivors endlessly pre drop safe pallets against a m1 killers on strong maps. survivors will never stop complaining about the tactics no matter how strong the tools are to combat it. If you don't have the coordination to use the tools than it dosen't matter. Slugging, camping,etc are necessary evils to keep all killers viable to a certain extent but theere need to be a way to coordinate at base. people been begging for kinderd forever
1 -
I’m sure the people downvoting this can send us some clips of their killer gameplay to show us all how they can easily beat good coordinated teams without ever camping, tunneling or slugging
0 -
Nobody here is arguing that. We've acknowledged that SWF are stronger than killers, but that wasn't the point. The point is being ignored because for some reason you don't want to admit that this behavior is heavily detrimental and boring to solo queue players. Last time I checked, solo queue accounted for over half of survivor teams, which means that statistically speaking the people complaining are more likely to be people who play solo. That's why this whole "yeah but SWF" argument is a strawman.
1 -
how am I supposed to know if a team is solo queue or SWF? If I get into a match and I can tell the survivors are good and know what they’re doing, I’m going to use these tactics if needed. I won’t use them if the survivors are bad and I don’t need to use them.
The goal of all the complaints is to try to nerf these legitimate strategies which is only going to make it more difficult for killer players to compete in matches against skilled survivors. You can’t nerf these only for matches where they are not needed.0 -
No, that is not the goal. The goal is to use your voice loud enough so the devs hear you and acknowledge what is objectively a problem with the game. Whether or not these strategies should be nerfed, changed, discouraged, etc is up to the devs, not me. But if I were to suggest something, it would be to revert all the changes that have essentially encouraged this type of behavior.
Replacing or reworking SBMM is one aspect because you need at least 3 kills to gain MMR which encourages tunneling (because it gives you a huge advantage allowing you to more easily reach those 3 kills). In fact I think basing wins based on kills is a huge mistake, even if it makes sense for the lore and idea of the game. We had the victory cube before, and that was essentially the same as this. It was then changed to the emblem system, and even though it was flawed I prefer it over what we have now. It's not even about the quality of the matchmaking, it's about the mentality that the matchmaking system encourages in players. People care about their MMR, so they will do their best to make sure it increases. How do they increase their MMR? Well, the game says if you're the killer you must get 3+ kills, so you have to sweat. And for survivors it's based on if you escape or not, so you must sweat. This just isn't a healthy mindset to foster in a game like this. It makes sense for symmetrical games like Rainbow Six: Siege, but Dead by Daylight? I don't think so.
What I am arguing is that tunneling and slugging is a game health issue. People quit the game because of these issues. Ignoring that and pushing your head in the sand is not going to solve the issues, it's just going to kill the game eventually as everyone gets burned out. One problem I see in this community is that when you point out an issue, you have like 2-3 different people yelling at you saying that you want to ruin the game for the other side. This isn't productive. Focus on the issue, not tribalism please.
0 -
The glaring issue is that the game doesn't differentiate between SWF and SoloQ, so Killers using scummy tactics to even the playing field with SWF's then use those same tactics against SoloQ which destroys SoloQ. In fact, most Killers get accustomed to using those tactics just so they can have the best chance possible for an easily controllable match.
That's why people advocate for SWF nerfs and then changes to tunneling/camping/slugging. You can't balance a game around three different perspectives, especially when two of them are constantly being forced into one. BHVRs new "health" patch is just further proof that they have no idea ######### they are doing with the game and are just desperately trying to keep it afloat for the next DLC.
1
