General Discussions

General Discussions

It seems to me this new change INCENTIVIZES survivors to hold the game hostage (extreme hiding)

Member Posts: 1,032
edited March 7 in General Discussions

Most of the new surrender options are good, but this one here incentivizes extreme hiding just like the 4% mechanic and instant death on missed skillchecks incentivize survivors giving up to go next. It pretty much suggests that, if survivors hold the game hostage by hiding for a long time, specially not doing their objective on purpose, the solution is to just give them the victory, a free escape. That's already what they aimed for with extreme hiding, but this is a change that pretty much tells them there's a good chance they get this free escape after 10 minutes, setting an official mechanic to give them a win in that scenario.

To be fair, there's another change from the Quality of Life Initiative that seems to atempt this issue… but the info it gives us is a little vague on purpose, and I understand why, it's to not let players know how to circumvent it. Still, the new change on PTB pretty much makes clear there ARE ways of circumvent it, and that it's still possible for survivors to hide for 10 minutes without doing gens and without being revealed, and on top of that, it facilitates THEIR win by incentivize them to leave the match instead of revealing the griefers to allow the killer to find and kill them.

Post edited by Malkhrim on

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Comments

  • Member Posts: 554

    Incentivizes 3 genning

  • Member Posts: 270
    edited March 6

    They just needed to change the AFK crow logic so that only working on a generator resets the timer. At the moment you can just pick up/put down an item to reset the timer.

    Actually, they might be doing just that. I think this change might be targeted at hackers. At the moment, hackers can hold killers hostage and force them to DC by making themselves unhookable.

    I don't know if it will be enough, the hackers could just complete 1 generator every 10 minutes and still hold the killer hostage for 50 minutes.

  • Member Posts: 585

    As someone else said this is just the first stage. I’m thinking the second stage will address extreme hiding to out survivors who are doing this. Also while I’m sure there will be people out there who will try to do this just to mess with the killer because let’s face it, some people who play this game only play to make the game miserable for others, I don’t see this being the vast majority of people. In my experience the majority of people who play this game actually want to PLAY the game.

    I know I don’t want to waste 10 minutes of my time stealthing around the map and not touching a gen just to get a “win” and that’s IF the killer decides to use the surrender option anyway. I’m here to actually play the game and maximize my BP and XP gains. I’m sure it’s the case for more people than not.

  • Member Posts: 23

    If you slug, camp or tunnel early in the match. Why would anyone want to play a normal match with you? You want people not to hide and draw the game out then stop drawing the game out or looking for a cheap advantage. Majority of people playing killer looking to do those things stick around in end game chat go get people riled up. You waste other players time they then they will waste yours. Pretty simple

  • Member Posts: 239

    So now I can go into a match with three friends, hide in lockers for 10 minutes while laughing at the killer and walk away with a win. I never expected for a dev update encouraging trolling.

  • Member Posts: 23
    edited March 9

    Who cares how someone plays? Do you have a problem with someone playing killer they way they want? Isn't that point of the game... to survive. This is the hypocrisy in this community. Righteous for thee, but everyone else's way of playing is wrong and bad for the game.

    Post edited by BoxGhost on
  • Member Posts: 23

    Hmmm kind of like 90% of matches most solo q survivors experience. 10 mins in and the game is over because you can tunnel and camp a player out. But oh the agony. Put your big girl pants on

  • Member Posts: 23

    Hmmm 2 people playing the same game are annoyed they are being trolled and held hostage in the game by the oppenent. Yet somehow thats apples to oranges. Nice gaslighting

  • Member Posts: 8,332

    If it gets to point where people are able to use the surrender option survivors shouldn't get escape points and killers shouldn't get kill points. That way neither side "wins" by putting the other side into a situation where they are given the surrender option.

  • Member Posts: 3,401

    What killer is just going to sit there for 10 minutes if survivors aren't doing their objective. Just hook them. Done. Next match.

  • Member Posts: 394
    edited March 6

    Absolutely idiotic take. There are unfun strategies on BOTH sides which is the responsibility of the devs to address. Players are quite free to point these out.

    Why was distortion changed? Why was skull merchant gutted if the people who enjoyed playing her were happy?

    Because the devs recognised that whilst one individual may have fun with certain elements of the game, these elements cannot be allowed to ruin the enjoyment of the game for the majority.

  • Member Posts: 1,032

    Hadn't thought the possibility of this being a measure against cheaters. I hope you're right about that part, but by the wording of both updates, it seems like a measure against holding the game hostage in general, and it really seems to me there will still be ways of circumventing the crow mechanic. If that's the case, this surrender option after 10 minutes will apply to extreme hiding as well, as it's another common form for survivors to hold the game hostage. I also don't think it will be that great for stopping cheaters. And if it ends up not being effective against cheaters but it does end up impacting on matches with extreme hiding, them we'll have a problem.

  • Member Posts: 554

    So people that slug never do it to grief?

    Absolutely 0 videos out there with people getting humped on the ground for several minutes?

    Just fake news in that department huh?

  • Member Posts: 358
    edited March 10

    I don't see why surrendering would be a win for the other side, or why it would increase MMR (be a win)…

    I don't see how letting the Killer leave if the Survivors do nothing would be considered a Survivor win either. That seems more like a Killer win because the Survivors never engaged in the game or weren't enough of a challenge. In fact I'd arhue it is a Killer win, and it should pip everyone who didn't quit, but not raise their MMR, as a "sorry about that" measure. Just… one free pip.

    HOnestly just make pipping braindead easy and points not be tied to it. You played the round through or had people quit on you? Pip. You DC? Depip. You win the round? Double Pip.

    Easy as, no more of this byzantine system of counting how much you did in the game. Did you play the whole round, and did you get a 3k/escape through a hatch or door? That should be ALL that counts for a pip.

    Post edited by LockerLurk on
  • Member Posts: 2,134

    They definitely have it backwards. If they are unable to complete gens after 10 minutes, they have failed to do their objective. Should pop up as a survivor surrender option.

  • Member Posts: 270

    I'm sorry, I forgot I'm on the internet and people will take the most bad faith interpretation humanly possible to a general statement you made.

    "Aha, you said that the survivor should need to make meaningful progress towards the game state instead of sitting in a corner and dropping their item repeatedly in order to get rid of crows. Clearly this means you think that survivors should accumulate crows for being on the hook or healing."

  • Member Posts: 6,152

    I actually think this is a good step. But then I lived through the 1 hour Skull Merchant games era lol I think 10 min is good. Gives enough time for the killer to track them down (basement is usually a good bet, in my experience), and if unable to then cancel the game. It shouldn't be about who "wins" or is perceived to win, it's about reclaiming your valuable time from people who are wasting it. I imagine the devs don't want to completely eliminate (or punish) any aspect of hide and seek since the game is literally advertised as a "hide and seek" game.

  • Member Posts: 2,033

    I hope that the update to AFK crows will be here soon. The best solution for it would be to give it to us THIS PATCH.

  • Member Posts: 2,094
    edited March 7

    It's not bad faith, it's taking exactly what you wrote. You deliberately said "gen progress", not "advancing the game". So all of those points would have to be special exceptions in this system, at least as you described it.

    I even said at the bottom, you could ignore all of that and it's still a bad idea.

    If you genuinely want a discussion (which I'm not sure you do, since you simply dismissed everything, and didn't try to rebut a single point) then please explain how this should work around the "slug for the 4k" problem. And to be clear, that's 4 minutes waiting for your teammate to bleed out, a minute or so of hatch searching, and 2 minutes of EGC that is legitimate hiding, in the killers control, but would identify the survivor unfairly with something like what you described.

    So tell me, since nothing you've said explains this, how does your system of "didn't complete a gen recently" deal with this situation fairly for the survivor? Because it sounds like the survivors position gets revealed either way and killer gets a 4k every time.

    Hiding is genuinely legitimate gameplay, situationally. Similar to camping, tunneling, and slugging, it's perfectly fine in limited doses, but it's the excessive use of any of those, including hiding, that becomes a problem.

  • Member Posts: 1,032

    Another one comparing apples to oranges. What you're describing is just BMing. Killers humping isn't much different from survivors T-bagging. It's more annoying when you're just on the ground and can do nothing, yeah, but that's still not a bannable offense, unlike extreme hiding to hold the game hostage.

    If you have any doubts about that, just check the rules on bannable offenses again:

    And before you try to find some loophole to say this covers BMing dying survivors, the devs have stated multiple times that targeting specific users repeatedly means something that has to happen on multiple matches.

    And there's also this: the INVALID report reasons.

    So, doesn't matter how much you try to compare hiding to hold the game hostage to slugging. One is bannable, the other is not. And seriously, trying to compare slugging to griefing just becaus there are very specific scenarios some people take the chance to be toxic is like trying to suggest any stealth at all is griefing just because it can be used to extreme hiding, or that merely standing behind open gates is toxic just because some people take the chance to BM the killer.

  • Member Posts: 1,032

    Well, it SHOULD be a killer win, but the word "surrender" implies the killer is the one losing, conceding the victory to the survivors. And the developer update just says it doesn't leave you with a disconnection penalty, which kind of implies that otherwise it's similar to the killer disconnecting from a match, a situation where survivors get a free escape.

  • Member Posts: 554

    Wrong


    The real apples to oranges comparison here is T-Bagging, and getting humped after a slug.


    One of the situations there isnt a powerless 2nd party. And is not delaying the game. (T-Bagging)


    The other has a person unable to do anything and you are just doing it to delay the game (Slugging)


    Summarized:

    T-Bagging, typing GGEZ, Emoting, is poor sportsmanship or Bad manners.

    Slugging and humping delaying the game until bleedout, when you have the option to hook, is intentionally ruining someones experience or Griefing.

    Hope this clarifies the distinction for you between BMING and Griefing.

  • Member Posts: 1,032

    Talk as much as you want, you are are still wrong according to definitions of the rules and the devs. You keep acting as if slugging is comparable to hiding to delay the game indefinitively, the point the other person was trying to make before you, just because there is a possibility of using it to bleed someone out for up to 4 minutes. Well, it isn't. One is considered a bannable offense that validates a report for griefing, the other doesn't.

    Killer humping and survivor T-bagging are still the same thing. Both are tiny quick movements made with no purpose other than trying to and annoy another player, and both are name after sexual acts. Both are nothing more than BMing. If they are performed while someone is slugged or not, it still doesn't make them any more of an offense because slugging isn't a bannable offense either, in any scenario, in any context.

    If you think I'm wrong, just look at the list of invalid report reasons I had just posted on the other comment.

    Or better, just look at some of the multiple times devs had to state this over the years. I hope this clarifies the distinction for you.

  • Member Posts: 270

    I'm not going to refute your points because I don't disagree with anything you said, because you're making an actual strawman argument. I wrote that post off the cuff because the main thing I was trying to say is that dropping and picking up your item repeatedly wards off AFK crows, which is the main thing survivors could do to abuse the new 10 minute surrender thing.

    But you're arguing against the specific wording I used instead of the spirit of what I was saying, which is that only meaningful actions to advance the game should ward off AFK crows.

    Do you seriously think I was trying to argue that survivors should get AFK crows for healing or being on the hook? I'm not insane.

  • Member Posts: 277
    edited March 7

    If you slug, camp or tunnel any point of the game it is normal part of the game, even tho if it is not funny for the survivors. I never saw that "taking hostage the game is only bannable if the killer didn't do anything what annoys you".

    Slugging, camping and tunneling progress the game forward. Walking around the map's edge is not. It is that horribly simple.

  • Member Posts: 554
    edited March 7

    You are getting side tracked on something I havent said.

    Quoting to me what the devs think is not what this conversation is about.


    I am telling you the difference between griefing and bming.

    And I am giving you literal definitions of them. If you want to disagree with them tell me why, quoting something the devs have put about report reasons is not why you disagree with them.


    For reference again:

    T-Bagging, typing GGEZ, Emoting, is poor sportsmanship or Bad manners.

    Slugging and humping delaying the game until bleedout, when you have the option to hook, is intentionally ruining someones experience or Griefing.

    It seems you are stuck on something I havent brought up which is the rules of the game and what is reportable or not as said by the devs/community managers. Im not talking about what is reportable or not

  • Member Posts: 2,094

    I can only go by what you wrote, and there are certainly people who would hold to exactly that definition.

    It didn't help you though, that you've said twice now that's not what you meant, but despite me asking several times for clarification, you haven't given any further indication of what you mean.

    I even narrowed it down to one specific example for you to give any context for, and you continue to just ignore conversation or discussion and just be defensive.

    If you don't actually have any further clarification, then I'm done here. But, for the record, the absurd viewpoint that you wrote verbatim is the only thing anyone has to go by. If that's not correct, you've declined any of my attempts to get more nuance out if it. That's not my fault.

  • Member Posts: 270

    I have clarified twice now. I don't know what else to say.

    "Meaningful actions to progress the game"

    Do you think standing on the edges of the map and dropping and picking up your item repeatedly should ward off AFK crows?

    How about this: if you have spent 10 minutes in the match without touching a generator, being on hook, or getting chased by the killer, you should probably get AFK crows. There is absolutely no reason why that length of time should have gone by without you doing one of those actions unless you are hiding with malicious intent, either to screw over your allies or to just waste the killer's time.

    That seems a lot more reasonable to me than to tell the killer who's stuck with you that they can leave the match without a penalty. They should still present that option though in the event that the reason it's happening is because of a hacker.

  • Member Posts: 6,152

    "Hiding is genuinely legitimate gameplay, situationally. Similar to camping, tunneling, and slugging, it's perfectly fine in limited doses, but it's the excessive use of any of those, including hiding, that becomes a problem."

    Yup. This right here is literally why we are even having this health update lol people take things to extreme and then wonder why the devs step in. There's a time and place for every strat, but some people are extremely stubborn.

  • Member Posts: 358
    edited March 10

    And this is what sane people have beem saying for ages now. There's nothing wrong with slugging, camping, tunnelling, or hiding as a normal part of how you play this game. I'd argue it's fundamental TO the game. I'd say there's nothing wrong with a quick slap on the hook or a teabag once or twice either.

    There is something very very wrong however with EXCESSIVELY slugging, camping, tunnelling, and hiding, all of which is done to literally give someone a bad time and therefore is griefing. And there is also something very wrong with EXCESSIVELY slapping on hook, shuffling over a downed bleeding Survivor for four minutes, and teabagging in the exit gate when you KNOW you're just doing it to make the other person feel bad. That's ALSO griefing because it's done intentionally to irritate the player and ruin their experience. Excessive BMing is griefing.

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