Killer vs Killers role

Survivors got nothing?

An entire killer perk was nuked from orbit and survivors got nothing?

The devs balance the game around a 60% kill rate, which, when factoring in hatch, amounts to around a 50% win rate for killers.

Wrong and Wrong.

Killers win 50%, but survivors win only 37%, so this is imbalanced (the rest is draws). Presenting this as "50% winrate for killer" without presenting 35% for survivors is pure manipulation and you know it because I've already quoted you several times.

Second, hatch escapes increase the winrate, not the other way around. Because a hatch is a win for killer, even though it's 0 kill.

Knockout was objectively a poorly designed perk.

It only worked against SoloQ, the weakest role in the game, since the lack of informations and comms made it easy to slug the entire game with minimal effort. Paired with MMR being loose enough to result in your random teammates being of varying qualities further making the issue worse. Compared to SWFs that just easily counter Knockout just from using basic communication.

The new versus works against SoloQ and SWF, since it's a static effect that can proc in a chase. The new version solves the issue of "pre-dropping and holding W" that is often complained about, since it punishes Survivors for doing such. It also has synergies with many Killer powers that makes it insanely flexible to use (as a Demo main, I am going to enjoy this perk, it will be amazing on them).

The new perk effect only triggers if the survivor moves away within a few seconds. How does one delay a killer? One way is to be extra annoying a blind at every pallet where the hinder doesn't come into play.

While knockout wasn't useful, it had its uses. Even against a SWF, without prior callouts you still need to tell someone where you are. The Doctor's map being the nightmare scenario.

They could of easily made the survivor aura return after a few seconds or cause blindness until they are healed. You know, something other than survivors hate this perk, lets scrap it and replace with a rejected idea some intern had.

But, as to what I stated, survivors campaigned to change the perk. So much so that one would believe it was an S tier perk if looking from the outside. The Devs, like always, gut the original intent of the perk and put in a half ass effect to please the mob.

Then to complain that survivors get nothing and the game is killer sided when it took years and several revisions just to make DS fair while keeping with the original intent.

Minor correction, the hatch does count as an escape as far as kill metrics.

The only time hatch is treated differently is that hatch is considered a draw for calculating MMR. But hatch is never considered a win for the killer.

Everything else though is completely true. I've never seen a PVP game push so hard for "balance" where one team wins nearly twice as much as their opponents. I get that it's asymmetrical, but since they're going for more "competitive balance" not "casual fun", having 50+% wins vs 35% wins and 15% draws is an insane spread.

At highest levels of play, this game is blatently survivor sided

• If the game was blatantly survivor-sided at high level then there wouldn't be people who achieve a 2000 winstreak on Blight, 1000 on Nurse, 800 on twins, 600 on Onryo, while the longest survivor streak is only around 300.
  
• If the game was blatantly survivor-sided at high level then Otzdarva's No Limits tournament would have ended up with killers getting destroyed. Yet killers still won 60% (link).
  
• If the game was blatantly survivor-sided at high level, then BHVR also wouldn't share this:

You're also assuming that I'm against the 60% killrate philosophy, but I'm not even saying that, I just say we need to be honest about the facts. Personally I think killrate is a rather low-priority thing to focus on and there are much more important issues in this game than balance, like the unfun gameplay mechanics, hook suicides, and technical issues.

Let me ask you a question.

Which killer is the best in the game?

The latest update is definitely survivor sided other than small buffs for Legion who is a terrible killer. Xeno got nerfed. We get a new Eyrie map just what we need. A killer perk changed. Surrender option for survivors but not one for killers when 3 or 4 gens get done for 1 hook

To help clarify your point that others might have a hard time understanding, MMR adjustments are disconnected from win/losses as a concept very intentionally. For an example, a grandmaster in chess winning vs a brand new player wouldn't increase their rating even though they won, and that new player wouldn't downgrade their rating even though they lost. MMR don't care about wins or losses, it just cares about trying to balance the next match better. Some games might even lower a rating even if it was a win. Ranking/ratings/mmr do not necessarily equally match up to wins/losses/ties. The same applies in DBD but to a lesser extent. A hatch is MMR neutral, but it has no bearing itself on wins or losses. A survivor escaping via a hatch won their match, but MMR stays the same. For example, if the killer got a 3k, and the 4th survivor hatches out, then both the killer won and the survivor won. However bear in mind hatch opens under any circumstances of there being one final survivor, even if all the other survivors escaped out the exit gate. A win for survivor is escaping by any means. A win isn't when mmr is positive, though a win can be gained when it's positive - it's just not the defining factor of a win.

Yes, 5 second DS is fair for a one time use perk that only activates after a win condition from a killer, ie a hook state. What was unfair was DS could cancel out the effort it took to down that survivor with a push of a button. So yes, the current state of DS is fair.

I don't know where you got these stats from because they certainly don't look official, but the OFFICIAL stats from BHVR usually show nurse being the lowest kill rate or one of the lowest in the game. When looking at high MMR she's usually in the bottom half to middle of the pack:

These are the "top MMR" for example from BHVR.

Now, as a nurse main with 4k+ hours, i agree, she is by far the best killer in the game, its pretty obvious and no contest really.

So my point i'm making here, is i think that what is ACTUALLY high MMR and what BHVR SAYS is high MMR are very different things. I suspect that when BHVR releases stats and they talk about "High MMR" they are talking about the highest MMR "bracket" in terms of matchmaking.

Are you aware of how MMR works and how matchmaking in general works? I suspect not, but that's ok. Through some people looking into this matter we have a pretty good idea of how MMR works.

MMR is broken up into 4 "brackets" you have the low bracket, the lower mid bracket, the upper mid bracket and the top bracket. I don't know off hand the level of MMR in each bracket below the top, but i do know one thing. The top bracket is 1400+ MMR.

Now, MMR systems typically use Glicko which is just a derivation of Elo. I play chess, a lot. And my current blitz rating in chess is 1428 as of writing this. This is my rating after playing around 10,000 games, so its probably pretty decently representative of my current skill level. In an average elo distrubution, this puts me around the top 15% of players. Pretty good right? Well, not really. You see, here is a graph of the distribution of those ratings:

Now again, looks pretty good right? Well, the problem here is that anyone in the 1400+ MMR bracket in DBD, can be matched together. So now imagine me playing a game with say Magnus Carlsen, best chess player in the world. If i played him 100 times, he would probably win 100 times. After a few thousand games, maybe i get lucky once and he was drunk and i land a draw.

The point i'm ultimately making here. Is you should not look at the stats BHVR releases as "high mmr" and take that as what people actually think "high MMR" is. When people say "at the highest levels of play" i'm talking chess grandmaster level of play. The top of the top players in the world. I'm talking about the titled level chess players, of which there are around 20,000, in a total pool of around 8 MILLION rated players. The TOP MMR.

So again, i reiterate my point.

• At the lowest skill levels, DBD is massively killer sided
• At the below average skill levels, DBD is slightly killer sided
• At average skill levels, DBD is evenly balanced
• At the above average skill levels, DBD is slightly survivor sided.
• At the highest skill levels, DBD is massively survivor sided.

When i talk about these things i'm talking about people who are world class, like thousands upon thousands, tens of thousands even, of hours playing the game.

Go take a look at comp level play, and look at the rulesets they have in place. If the killer is not player nurse, they generally have very few restrictions on killers (outside of obvious stuff like myers mori addon). And if you are playing pretty much every other killer, they have MASSIVE restrictions of what survivors can bring, what map is played and so on. And they do this for a reason. Almost every ruleset is in place to make the game more favorable for the killer, by putting them on their best map, and heavily restricting survivors. And they do this for a reason.

If you want to know who on the forums has never played killer before, just check the downvotes for this very reasonable and balanced take on the killer vs survivor balance

You've got it backwards. The topic is not about MMR or Nurse, it's you who brought these topics in. You brought these topics in, because you know that your initial claim of "50% winrate" is dishonest, and now you'd rather talk about MMR or other vague stuff.

But allow me to insist.

Simple question: do you think a 50% - 37% winrate is balanced yes or no?

And do you think it was honest to present this information as "Killers have a winrate of 50%", omitting the 37% of survivors?

Luckily, we don't have to count anything as a "draw".

We can just use killrate, which is the official metric the devs use, is very well defined, and doesn't have any problem with draws.

Sadly, "killrate" is not easy to manipulate, and reaches an embarrassing 60% - unexplainable for these people who told us 24/7 that the game is very survivor-sided. That's why they insist so much on bringing an abstract "winrate" into the discussion.