General Discussions
General Discussions
What does it mean when killers say "Survivors get too much help"?
They say things like "Survivors have too many 2nd chances", "Survivors get handheld by bhvr" or "They get too much help with basekits and features"
Why do they say such things?
Comments
-
because they are very biased. Same would be said if survivors said killers get handheld
12 -
Because they just lost a match and they need to vent
22 -
Who was saying these things?
0 -
They historically have gotten a lot of basekit buffs and perks to wipe away mistakes that they make is why. However, some of those buffs I feel are good such as basekit borrowed time, and the whole grabbing people unhooking always had a weird staring match moment. That being said, it's said because it's true, but it isn't always a problem that it has happened, and BHVR has sometimes nerfed some of the mistake erasing perks such as dead hard.
-4 -
Too many 2nd chances.... They have many chances to hide, run, do gens ect throughout the match. Failed at a chase? Get hooked, it's ok tho, unhook and have another go at a chase. Failed to complete gens, it's ok, try going for the hatch instead.
Too much help with basekits and features.… Swf has basekit aura reading essentially due to coms. Soloq needs certain base kits to stand a chance but they often get abused and op when in the hands of swf that have synergy. This is where too much help comes in.
-17 -
Because the devs constantly keep adding ridiculously strong perks to new survivors or buffing perks that are already annoying enough as is. First time in awhile the game was enjoyable with Flashbangs removed. Or nerfing killers to catter to survivors dying so easily, as of right now some killers are having their terror radius INCREASED in the planned upcoming updates, so great more survivor assistance. I already think pallet stunning should just make killers "drop" a survivor instead of letting them escape and run.
All the perks that grant endurance for example is flat out ridiculous and that in itself needs to start being looked at, some of long overdue for nerfs.
-17 -
claims like getting handheld by bhvr are one thing, but talk about second chances is generally due to how important single interactions can be for the flow (and outcome) of the match. One pefectly timed stun or save can make a massive difference in the amount of pressure the killer is able to apply, while a poorly timed one may have little to no impact. Timing and usage are just as (if not more) powerful than base effect with various perks and mechanics.
That said, a single DS/syringe/endurance/etc can have a game making/breaking difference. Its why second chances have so much disdain with the killer community, they see it as being "robbed" of their momentum/pressure/progress/etc by a single interaction. Its a similar feeling to getting one hooked imo, you're frustrated that a single mistake basically ruined the game for you.
10 -
'Survivors get too many second chances'
I think the biggest thing about this is the 'hatch.'
Usually they repair the generator and escape through the gate.
However, if there is only one person left during the ceremony, a hatch will appear and allow them to escape, no matter how many generators are left.Also, if the hatch is closed by the killer, the next time the gate can be opened even though the generator repair is not complete.
Escape by hatch“ and ”Escape from the gate after the hatch is closed"
Thus, when the repair of the generator is not completed and there is only one person left, the game is lost, but there is still a chance to escape.'Survivors are helped by BHVR' “Survivors are helped too much by base kits and features.”
For example, there is a “heartbeat visualization” option for the deaf, but if this is really an option for such people why is there no similar feature on the killer's side?
If this is indeed an option for such people, why is there no similar feature on the killer side?And even though this option is available to healthy people and some killers such as Sadako are not emitting heartbeats, the undetectable effect is not working properly because of this feature.
The number of times a generator can be destroyed is now limited to 8, but this limit is quickly reached when using some perks such as “Irruption”.
If the system is designed for non-chase killers, why does it also count perks that are triggered when a chase is made and a down is obtained?
There are many other factors, but I feel that survivors are helped by the huge difference between the reasons for implementing these new systems and the current situation after they are implemented, as well as the difference in the number of chances a killer and a survivor can receive.
I am using a translator so I apologize if there are any rude expressions.
-3 -
Youll get claims like these on both sides. It mostly just stems from tribalism since instead of taking the time to understand why things get changed, they are more upset by the idea of the other side getting something to begin with, because it isnt their role.
The easiest way to snuff that stuff is to ignore it or respond with "Us VS Them" and 95% of the time they will stop.
8 -
Because it is true, specially when we see perks that are meta on killer and perks that are meta on survivor.
Perks that have been historically good on killer either have a condition to activate or have a high risk around it. Pop, DMS, Pain Res, and Eruption all required you to hook or down a survivor, while Ruin can be cleansed and be removed from the game.
The best survivor perks on the other hand operate in a opposite manner. DS and OTR immediately come into mind. You get hooked, then you get downed, then you let the killer hit you, and then the killer gets punished for it. It feels incredibly cheap, like you're punishing the other for playing well and getting a benefit from misplaying and being incompetent. I don't mind strong survivor perks like Adrenaline and Deliverance, because although they are strong, the survivor has to work for them.
-9 -
Because they lack common game sense.
10 -
Cause they think the majority of their matches is against some comp swf team, when in reality its 1/15 of their matches.
Rest are just soloQ.
Its pure cope8 -
Nearly all the tribalism would be gone if everyone bothered to play both sides
-4 -
It is just parrotting. This held a lot of truth when the game came out and lost a lot of it over the years. Nowadays if people say that Survivors get too much, they are just struggling at the game and think because the game used to be heavy survivor-sided that this is still the case and it is ok to claim that Survivors get too much help.
10 -
Survivor play QOL actually improved
- Action visualization HUD (now you can also see gen and heal progress through stages)
- Base kit BT
- Anti (Totem,Gen) camping system
- Anti 3gen system
- Reworked maps with occasional broken windows and Palette loops are provided
Actual improved killer play QOL
- Shortened post-attack hardness and destruction actions
- Almost pointless gen kick now causes gen to back off (minus the 3gen system that was added instead?)
1 -
Oh, so free BT and anti-camp, and 10 second longer hook states isn't handholding?
-2 -
Just to make everyone aware here.
You think:
Hitting a survivor straight off the hook, and being able to down them, is fair gameplay?17 -
Also note that he even said "anti-camp", while Killers usually never get tired to say that it is just meant to prevent face-camping. So either he is thinking that direct face-camping should be possible or he wants to claim that the feature is way, way, way more impactful than it actually is.
(And obviously he ignores every Killer-Buff including 10 seconds more on Gens which should have come with a Hook Timer increase in the first place…)
Post edited by Aven_Fallen on15 -
Yea I mean with that logic, we should just bring back hook grabs.
All it is, survivor handholding right?
It was totally fair gameplay to just down someone after they were unhooked, and then have standoffs at the hook grabbing people.
100%12 -
Don't make me laugh.
Gen regression nerfd into oblivion because survivors didn't like it.
10 seconds extra on hook with next to nothing regression to counter said extra gen progression.
Limited gen regression to 8 hits.
Increasing aura on certain killers.
Hooking that actually gives survivors second chance perks often resulting in a free escape in end game.
Boil over, flip-flop, pallet stun, flashlight stun, flashbang stun, body blocks, sabotage, ds are all available to prevent hooking.
Then they introduced shoulder the burden.
Just some of the things that show survivors are so hard done by.
NB: I have no problem with hatch as it can be fun running around the map to see who finds it first.
-7 -
The game have a lot of second chance perks for survivors, and thats ok most of the time, but when a really good SWF use them, they become really strong.
5 -
Usually it means they noticed the hud going "THIS PERSON YOU HOOKED IS NOW BEING RESCUED. QUICK, HIT THEM. EASY TARGET." and they didn't count to 10.
6 -
This is so true.
If people played both roles to at least a competent level not only would they get much better at their preferred role, but gain some empathy for what the opposite side has to deal with. Bias would naturally lessen as a result.
0 -
Gen regression nerfd into oblivion because survivors didn't like it.
Gen regression nerfed because killers used gen kick and 3 gen meta for a full year and held games hostage with regression perks. It took 3 rounds of perk nerfs, a killer rework, and a new base kit mechanic to get people to stop, and all we've heard since then it's complaints that people want all of it back.
10 seconds extra on hook with next to nothing regression to counter said extra gen progression.
10 extra seconds on hook finally added after over 2 years, since this should've gone live with the extra 10 seconds of gen speed added in 6.1. killers enjoyed 2 years of buffed camping and tunneling thanks to that delay.
Limited gen regression to 8 hits.
Yup. This was the final straw they had to implement to actually kill off the 3gen meta, since nothing else had yet worked. Interestingly, this also came with a free, base kit anti gen tap mechanic as compensation for that change... Where's that in your list?
Increasing aura on certain killers.
Since I assume you mean "terror radius" here, they also reduced the terror radius for stealth killers. Not sure why a consistency patch is included, but if you're looking to stretch it then I suppose having "high mobility" killers with higher TR could be on a list. Could also be seen as a buff to terror radius perks, and is absolutely a buff to the stealth killers. Seems like cherry picking to me.
Hooking that actually gives survivors second chance perks often resulting in a free escape in end game.
You have to be talking about only the base kit BT feature. No other unhook perk works in the end game anymore (as of that same patch actually). This is countered by counting to ten. It also didn't change the effect, since before this everyone ran the perk. It was mandatory. This was a good change unless you hard camped a lot, which tracks for a lot of killers on this forum actually.
Boil over, flip-flop, pallet stun, flashlight stun, flashbang stun, body blocks, sabotage, ds are all available to prevent hooking.
DS had been nerfed since it was actually good at deterring tunneling. They couldn't even make it 5s again because people complained. Everything else in this list has been around for a long time. However, they've added things like starstruck, and awakened awareness, and a huge host of aura perks to help with this. Since we're taking about hook denial, they also made hooks respawn even on sacrifice.
Interacting with the killer also means people aren't on gens.
Then they introduced shoulder the burden.
StB only moves the hook state, announces that it's being used, and then makes the person with the new hook state exposed. The only people who complain about this perk are the ones that don't understand how it works, or completely lack the game sense to counter it.
Fixed these for you.
4 -
Basekit bt and anti camp were healthy changes. I can’t believe I have to explain this to someone again, but it seems like biased players like yourself are to unable to understand
Basekit bt is in the game because back then if the killer was camping and you got an unhook, the killer could down that person immediately as soon as they hit the ground. You think that’s good game design?
Anti camp is in the game because facecamping is really unhealthy, especially when it’s a one shot killer. Remember the facecamping bubbas? You think it was fine that they just camped immediately at 5 gens? Also this feature doesn’t do anything unless you are trying to camp them hard. It’s in your control as the killer
the 10 second hook timer doesn’t do anything. If you play normal it does not matter.None of these are handholding, they were put into the game to make the game healthier. Hopefully you can understand now
6 -
what specific survivor perks are “ridiculously strong” and need to be nerfed?
-1 -
all of them apparently
4 -
I'm all for balance for both roles but how are you supposed to balance an asymmetrical game?
4 -
this whole ‘survivors get babied’ thing annoys me when the game has been exponentially changed multiple times for killers of the last 8 years, and this is never mentioned in these arguments.
2 -
Or, if we are looking at how the game has really been affected for killers
- addition of bloodlust
- Additions of blocks to vaults when used three or more times in quick succession
- Increase in vault speed
- Change to hooks so they cannot be permanently broken with a tool box
- Change to hooks so they respawn following a sacrifice
- Change to hook spawns so they consistently spawn closer together
- Change to BNP so it doesn’t auto complete a gen
- Nerfs to toolboxes
- Nerfs to medipacks
- Changing the hatch so it doesn’t spawn mid match anymore and only one person can escape as opposed to three
- Implementation of continuous gen regression
- removal of many ‘infinites’
- Changes to loops in general to a more unsafe design both historically and recent e.g blocking up a second window in the shack and putting holes in buildings where vaults were before
- Nerfs to gens speeds
- Making maps smaller to increase map pressure/mobility
This is all just changes to base gameplay and how the game works at its core . It’s before we even start to look at the changes to perks caused by killers not being happy with them which would have plenty of comments. This rhetoric of ‘BHVR only changes the game for survivors and killers get nothing ’ really needs to end because it’s just not true.
18 -
Something I don’t understand is why second chance perks are seen by some as “hand-holding” when the entire survivor role is intentionally built around having multiple chances. Survivors are designed with three health states specifically because the game is asymmetrical—the killer is always stronger in a 1v1, and it’s because of this that survivors are not meant to die instantly.
Many people argue that second chance perks “reward failure” because they activate when a survivor is downed, yet must also acknowledge that survivors must be able to be downed for the game to even function and intentionally designed to be downed 3 times and still possibly die. If a survivor was meant to die immediately upon their first down or first hook, with no “second chances” the game would have been designed that way from the start. But that isn’t how DBD works. The entire balance relies on survivors having multiple opportunities to extend their survival.
My issue with the argument against second chance perks is that it feels inconsistent. If multiple health states and escape mechanics are necessary to keep the game balanced or even functional for the survivor role, then it follows that perks designed to help survivors last longer in the match aren’t fundamentally breaking the game but working within the intended structure that’s already there and always has been.
If someone takes issue with that, I feel the real question isn’t whether second chance perks are unfair, but whether they think the entire design of the survivor role is flawed. If survivors shouldn’t have perks that activate once they are injured or hooked, then they need to be much stronger and more difficult to down or hook in the first place. The game r is intended for survivors to have 3 chances at life, because of how oppressive the killer is in a 1v1. If they should only have 1 life, then the killer can’t be as oppressive as they are now, which just means that DBD wouldn’t be DBD anymore.
10 -
To be fair, most of those changes had to happen. DBD back then was obscenely survivor sided. Like to the degree of comical absurdity.
Which is why I would invite people complaining about survivors having their hands held now to take a trip back in time to see what handholding actually looked like. Hell, even just pre-6.1.0 would be a shock to the system for a lot of people.
I don't think killer is OP, but it's generally in as good a shape as it has ever been.
6 -
oh I completely agree. I’m not trying to imply many of those changes shouldn’t have happened, but we seem to be at a point now where we are constantly forgetting the amount of changes that actually have been made to support the killer play base and just want to lambast any changes that get made for survivors. It’s really irksome that any time a survivor gets or petitions for a change they’re ‘getting their hands held’ but killers conveniently forget all of the above that has been done to make the game more accessible for them.
13 -
Yeah, like most things, it's just a lack of perspective. These people either don't know or forgot what the state of the game used to be. But sadly I think that many players are so partisan to one role or the other that it's just all confirmation bias and anything the other side has is too much.
Generally speaking, I feel like DBD is as close to balance has it has ever been (though actual, total balance in this game is a pipe dream).
4 -
Its hard to say for certain, because you're right: The game is designed for 3 hook states and 2 health states each, meaning you can have an elimination in anywhere from 1-6 hits before endurance effects, which already makes it hard to manage balance wise. Keep in mind this is in a game where it can take 4-24 hits, so adding those second chances throws that variation even further out of alignment. The elimination nature exclusively for one side of the game is hard enough to balance, but any one of those interactions can have a very disproportionate impact on the overall match. The more chances you add, the more chances you add to completely devalue and reset the killer's momentum and progress. I can't think of a way to fix this without completely changing how the elimination system of the game currently works, which would honestly make it stop being DBD, exactly like you said.
I just think second chances need to be used sparingly for this reason, or come with some kind of "recoup" mechanic that the killer could use to minimize the impact of egregious cases on their pressure/momentum. Its actually kinda two halves of the same issue, as killers start weaker and get stronger, so their momentum and pressure are both extremely important to their macro game throughout the match. Interactions should be able to have variable levels of impact, but I feel like there is such a thing as too much/little when it comes to things like eliminations (tunneling, camping, slugging) and second chances (endurance, items, saves, etc.)
1 -
basekit bt can be used to bodyblock survivors that used to not be a thing ds is handholding incarnate because its a 5 second stun that works even if the survivor is healed but hasn't touched a gen they changed knockout entirely because survivors were complaining about slugging when boon exponential and unbreakable exists dead harding pallets.
if your a killer and you go up in mmr and get good survivors who know how to play the game well all the busted stuff like shoulder the burden flashbangs being uncounterable outside of lightborn offensive bodyblocking and aggressive ds gen rushing you get 1-3 hooks with all gens completed unless your using top tiers then it's a 50/50 chance depending on rng the map itself ect
-3 -
yes since survivors can rush their objective killers should be able too also
-4 -
I think it's because survivors can snatch victory from the jaws of defeat with those second-chance elements, whereas a killer can tell in the first minute if the match is going poorly that they've already lost and there is no clawing their way back. It's demoralizing.
-6 -
Honestly it's a mix of tribalism, influence from Content creators, bad experiences, and weaponization of game mechanics
7 -
+1
3 -
DS isn't five seconds anymore, killers kept smashing their face into it and getting upset they were being punished for doing everything wrong with regards to that perk, so it's four seconds now.
But also, DS is the best designed perk in the game in that regard. It is the one perk that is entirely 100% completely in the killer's control. Nothing can force the killer to eat a DS, only the killer can. If you are struggling with DS, it's because you are choosing to try and cut corners, playing into the perk's function.
It's like a survivor complaining about Lightborn being overpowered because 'every time I try to blind the killer, I get slowed while flashing'.
Just don't flash then.
10 -
It comes down to solo queue vs SWF. An even half decent SWF with a semi decent knowledge of the game mechanics stacking up on coordinated 2nd chance perks is going to be a massive pain for most killers, whereas a strong killer running meta that's needed to keep up with SWF stacked with 2nd chance stuff will absolutely stomp a solo queue of randomly put together players that can't communicate and don't have a clue what the other 3 are running.
The game is a never ending circle of solo queue getting stomped by meta killers and killer losing to SWF stacked with survivor meta and being on comms which in effect gives them several other perks as well as completely nullifies any killer stealth perks.
I play both sides and you can tell within one minute how a game will go and what you are playing against or with.
2 -
ehhhh soloq gets stomped by killers with no addons or perks lol.
You could load up with chucky probably with brutal strength and win 70% still-2 -
Many people like to point out second chance perks as extra lives.
To me, they're just perks that people utilize as tunneling is prevalent. I used to go into a period of my time months ago where I always had Off The Record on, but I changed it out as I don't find myself getting tunneled often.
I actually see it quite rarely (for myself, I am not speaking on others), so I just use my default two perks (Deja Vu and Sprint Burst) - I actually think Sprint Burst is an anti-tunneling perk as you Sprint Burst away from the hook and usually a killer will drop chase (at least I find). Probably why I don't get focused on as I don't stay at the hook anymore when getting unhooked.
I mean, people complain when people use DS, OTR, UB, and whatever fourth perk (let's say Dead Hard) and you have the perfect storm where someone complains about it and say, "look at this guy, all these second chance perks." as a talking point.
3 -
They added more of a terror radius to higher mobility characters as, you know, they have high mobility to move from one section of the map to the other.
Blight and Hillbilly are considered S tier killers, so yes - expanding their terror radius to compensate for the high map mobility they have is why Behavior made those changes.
I know some people talk about Coulrophobia on them, like some Wesker players do - but at the same time that's more variety than the typical gen regression/1-2 aura reading that I see on Hillbilly and Blight - both of these killers can use BBQ and Lethal Pursuer to go to people that they aura read quite efficiently (this isn't a complaint) I'm just pointing out their ability to traverse a large distance and go to another survivor quite easily.
Blight can ping pong around and traverse in many ways that other killers do not have the capacity to do, I mean - look at any skilled Blight player, they can ping pong around with their rushes. Hillbilly has an instadown chainsaw and can easily zone a survivor down - it's a no brainer why Behavior changed these aspects (mind you, I have not seen anyone advocate for these changes - correct me if I'm wrong).
@GlamourousLeviathan , the perks that you mentioned have requirements where you get rewarded for hooking people. The objective of the game, yes - it is to kill survivors, you get rewarded for it either by downs (Surge) or hooks (BBQ and Chili, Pop, and Pain Res).
Interestingly enough, people will tunnel someone after a Pain Resonance - so, a survivor using a DS or Off The Record - you can extend this to let's say an Unbreakable.
I have gotten value recently where a killer Wesker, came after me when someone was resetting me with DS active. He chose to come back to the hook and try to down me after I was being reset - he chose to continue going after me, downed me, and slugged me (as a way to counter my DS, I believe I was obsession that game) - I went down on a pallet, he downed another survivor, and tried to come back to me where I did my Unbreakable, pallet stunned him, he tried to continue chasing me, and then gave up on me if I remember. The reason why DS, OTR, Borrowed Time, and all of these perks exist are for what I described earlier.
Just because you hook someone, come back to the hook, attempt to down them again (they're vulnerable) and you want to tunnel me out for an easier 1v3 does not mean that I should not punish the behavior. They exist simply because without second chance perks and the built in borrowed time basekit, killers would easily have more 1v3s in the game, which drastically affects the game if a person gets tunneled out at 5/4/3 gens.
4 -
if they removed the “second chance” perks can you imagine how absolutely abysmally low the survival rate would be across the board if they kept everything else the same? Game would be absolutely rigged, might as well watch paint dry over play survivor, and this is coming from someone who doesn’t use any of those perks.
4 -
Yes, mind you I'm not someone that uses second chance perks. I just so happened to be playing my Nea with -> DS, Unbreakable, Soul Guard, and Sprint Burst.
I utilized my perks, I didn't go up to the Wesker, I didn't bodyblock or anything.
That Wesker player decided to come back to the hook and think the poor Nea player was going to be an easy tunnel target and it backfired. Things don't always go according to plan, again - I didn't force him to do anything. He chose to do that, just like @Firellius said earlier - anti-tunneling is reactive. It is used because it's a common theme that killers will hook, leave the hook/proxy camp, wait for the little unhook notification, and then go back to hook and try to tunnel the person who got off the hook.
It's why basekit borrowed time and the anti-camp meter (still needs to be shown) exists - it's a strategy that counters tunneling.
8 -
Careful what you wish for my friend. This is a rabbit hole…
2 -
yeah, I’m sure they’ll learn ways around it though. Sounds like a “move the clock forward” in training. Easily one of the best killer strats out there when tunneling fails, just slap them down, as many as you can, and well they’re spending more time to recover and balls in your court mostly if you can get quick downs off altruism wait for third to come in(it’s why they complain about unbreakable and second chance mostly because it messes with the formula, mostly) easy bait, and start
hooking. The fourth has to come in, and it’s basically all you can hook snowball fest from there, always just in the wings. Pop on some gen regression and aura for help with a high mobility killer 👌Basically it stops any progression on the survivor side because all the hooks you’re getting basically nullified progression to a halt against most people(I mean umm today’s survivors are just bad).I know it sounds complex but it’s almost fool proof, almost. If we can just get4man swf on comms and second chance perks nerfed.Solo Q buffed. Wild takes truly, nowhere close to balanced even remotely when they start talking about nerfing second chance perks and being hand held(like they aren’t also getting hand held).It’s such a far from balanced idea that it left the solar system. As long as tunneling and slugging exists those perks will, and thinking anything other than both changing both simultaneously and either side surviving that gutting to fix that is a pipe dream. So like can it happen, sure can get that but it’s at a price, and might make the game overall staler for it. Pick your poison/die on your hill. Either way it’s a no from me in the mean time and take 0 calls for their nerfs seriously unless it’s followed by and in return they can take tunneling/slugging out of the game on the killer side and make it impossible to do.0 -
That's why if I notice a killer is slugging, I typically move from my starting location, and don't stay where they can continually check and hover over my position.
That strategy ^ would fail in higher MMR as survivors typically are not grouped up, they usually are in different locations, doing different gens, and more than likely one person is in chase.
There is a reason why tunneling, slugging, and proxy camping are a strong thing that many killer players employ - it's more consistent than simply smacking survivors down and hovering, as most highly skilled players will notice it, and punish it by doing gens.
SoloQ needs more buffs as it by default is the hardest role in the game and I say that even when I have nice and remarkable games in my MMR. I still remember my friend watching me play soloq and telling me that I needed to play on his account to get the teammates I get, but I am a gen jockey chase oriented player, lmao.
1
