http://dbd.game/killswitch
Do we realy need to nerf the ghoul? (Yes we need changes, not skullmerchanting)
Comments
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That’s not even remotely true. Flashbangs were broken and uncounterable for literal months if not years and there was outrage but not “burning the forums down” and survivors defended that and continued to use them even though they were objectively broken and unfair.
Literally Flashbangs were exploits with no counter besides lightborn. And we dealt with it. Kaneki’s hits through walls look outrageous but they have to exist by the nature of his power and all the clutter on the map. And the higher ping he has the worse it will look.
-2 -
He’s clunky. He doesn’t need a nerf. No power of his downs either. Not an issue.
-11 -
Preface: I played against him twice yesterday, played as him for hours before & after.
The grab attack hitbox is pretty absurd. It's not uncommon to hit someone who's almost completely around an obstruction, to the point where sometimes you hit someone without even knowing they were there, and oftentimes you're staring directly at a wall when you're stuck in the blood suck hit confirm animation. Reducing it a bit or adding more LoS checks seems like it's in the cards.
On the flip side, I have to wonder….why is there like a full 1 second cooldown for when you try to initiate a leap but didn't successfully target something? Given how finnicky the targeting can be, it feels unnecessarily clunky and ought to be reduced.
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He is definitely top-tier material and may actually give Nurse and Blight a run for their money, and that's saying something. Easily the strongest killer we've had in a very long time.
-1 -
The comparison with Legion makes no sense. They both injure you for free, Legion just needs to walk closer and is slower at it. They both still need to M1 you but Kaneki actually has a chance to be successful because he can use his power to cut off your pathing. It has more interplay than just being pure M1 like Ghostface or Legion. Even Pig has stronger downing potential in certain loops than Kaneki.
He doesn't need any changes. It's too early to be making claims that he's overtuned because you're not even giving yourself time to make appropriate comparisons (like to Pig, which makes way more sense in the context of his ability to down someone, of which he lacks unless you're in an open area.)
-8 -
It seems like survivors don't want any new gameplay, since every time a new killer comes out they immediately throw a tantrum that they can't just run them for 5 gens on their first game and have to actually take time to learn.
I dunno man. Screaming for nerfs after a single day is pretty sad.-11 -
I remember when unknown had 0 counterplay, was impossible to dodge and too OP. funny how perspective shifts after taking a chill pill
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Been playing all day again. ALL GHOULS. EVERY GAME. Except for a Wesker, bless his heart.
Can someone explain to me how the Ghoul's targeting ability works? Sometimes it gives you a warning and an opportunity to dodge. And every other time, it aimbots and just hits you immediately. And sometimes it can hit you through map objects and walls. Like what is this actual slop? There is sometimes ZERO COUNTER to his ability.
This is actually making the game extremely unenjoyable for survivors.
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If I recall the Live stream correctly - its automatic aim/lock on. There was mention of there will be a red indicator for survivor to see where hes going to lunge to but personally there is zero room for reaction time before he's already there and biting you.
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Oh okay! And yeah there is ZERO REACTION TIME. Like bro what is this.
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People want to be mad and be demanding and do it right now
-10 -
Yeah, loops are definitely a counterplay to him. Unless you force survivors out of the loops, he really struggles with catching up within a strong tile.
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We aren't demanding to do it right this moment. We are sharing our complaints. That's how this works so that the devs can improve the game lol.
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I have, or so I believe, decent reaction time and its been a hassle avoiding getting snatched once sights have been set upon me.
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I would say...closest to a nerf is just adjusting the hit box since there are times where you get hits that just don't seem to make sense. I like playing him since it's cool to travel through the map easily. But yeah overall it's just hit boxes being a little wonky but overall his power doesn't insta-down so not Nurse levels of power but I can see him maybe getting a small nerf or adjustment but I mean he's a day old so give it some time I learned if he does his leap try sticking close to walls or small rocks(not height) to have a chance of not giving the extra attack.
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In my opinion, if a survivor makes it behind a wall before the ghoul reaches them with a special attack, the attack should not do damage. Of course, the ghoul would still gain some distance and even slow the survivor down for a bit, but the damage should be prevented. This change would make his special attack a free hit but only in open spaces, through windows, and other low obstacles. I would even go as far as to say that crouching near low obstacles should prevent his special attack from connecting, just like the Nemesis (but that's debatable). This change would provide survivors with some sort of counterplay to his special attack, one which would require quick thinking and skill.
That being said, I think the biggest issue with this killer is his ability to manually cancel his power and its extremely short cooldown thereafter. For most people, this seems to be the most frustrating aspect of his power because he can already get free injures + deep wound base-kit. The best solution for both sides would be to nerf his base-kit manual cooldown and rework one of his rare addons to buff it slightly. Even with the reworked addon, his manual cooldown should not be as short as it is now. Also, why does his special attack even apply deep wound base-kit? They should turn that into an uncommon addon, his power is already strong enough without it.
If they implemented even one of these changes, I'm sure the ghoul would feel much more balanced. I've tried many different builds, and by far exhaustion perks + windows of opportunity + flashlights seem like the best counter to him. But even with all that, a lot of maps have huge dead zones, hardly any windows, or they're just very small and pallets get burned through. I've noticed smaller maps feel extremely unfair when going against this killer, especially when he's enraged. In short, yes, he could use a nerf or two…
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I have to disagree. His ability, easy to use and that's the problem for most. I've made it more complicated in a separate post, I'm asking everyone who can to express their solutions on what to do with slide cancels and ability at all there.
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I don't mind the kit itself but I would prefer the auto aim on the power be fine tuned so it feels like the killer needs to aim and not hit players through walls. I speak with experience on both roles as well. The power itself is very strong but it's the jank that makes it feel terrible to go against at times.
And again personally I can deal with the power being this strong but all my teammates struggle to keep a chase against them atm so I'm unsure if I'm being too reasonable with my views on the killer atm. Will likely shift views in a week and gauge it better once everyone adjust to power more.
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Please don't nerf this right now.
This killer is most engaging from the survivor side. From the killer side it feels like Wesker but easier and then suddenly harder, not really to my preference, but still enjoyable.
As a survivor the pressure the killer puts map wide at any time is awesome. And that is fun.
Its fun because it really stresses cognitive and communicate skills and depreciates map memorization, which is refreshing.
His synergy with aura reading perks is a bit much, but there are perks to counter.
Let it sit for 6 months, please.
-13 -
Good point, however about the second part, I can't agree. I don't want him to be addon depended/ I suggested the alternative of reducing the slide.
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Surviviors dosent care/ They suffer RIGHT now and need changes ASAP, i just want to be sure that changes will be FAIR for both sides.
-3 -
I mean his counter is not normal because even if he does break pallet he can still body block the one you are going for concidering how spred the resources are and how fast he can make all the distance u just made on him the counter on some map just isn't their try to loop ghoul on Haddonfield or corn or Burgo were all loop are 40 to 50meter away from each other and once one loop is gone that it you can't do anything BTW I've played ghoul for like 12 hours the past 2 days verry forgiving killer when missing or over shooting your leeps it need to have a bigger cooldown something like when a survivour drops from a great hight but only after all charges have been spent as u just traveled across the map or just cut the distance he can travel by at least half TBH IT NEED TO BE LIKE 1/3 OF WHAT IT CAN DO NOW he can travel from 1 side of garden of joy to the other in 5 seconds and get free auto aim injures +slowdowns BK like their legit no killer more easy to play than this
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Well, I want to do a whole lot of heroin but I sort of accept that that would be bad, regardless of the immediate satisfaction of being obliterated, long term it will result in a bad outcome, for me.( THIS IS HYPERBOLE)
So, I won't do that.
I was sort of hoping that people that play survivor more than I do would see diversity of experience as a way to grow the population and their personal enjoyment.
But, I concede, you're likely correct, this is an issue and this issue must be corrected NOW.
We can only influence the decline.
-5 -
I think it is a big diference between running to you to injure and simply teleport to you to injure.
The Legion and Ghoul both cause deep wound, but if you have played as Ghoul you know how easy it is to injure someone: you just need to look at them after a dash, with insane range.It is much tougher for Legion to do so because:
- He needs to come close to hit you
- He cannot see scratch mark or killer instinct before the first hit, which makes him easy to cheese
- Survivors can still outplay him even if he is close (360, pallet stun, …)
But with Ghoul it is much easier, too much easier. All you need to do is dash the first time, then look at them and you will teleport into them and injure. If you have played him, you will understand.
And it is not even relevant to compare Pig and Ghostface to Ghoul. Ghostface has to mark you then walk with his puny 115% speed to you like a joke, and Pig screams at you warning about the long lunge attack.
And about his path cutting power. I don't say remove it, but survivor need more time to counterplay against it. unlike Wesker and Blight who has time before they can basic attack, and Blight also get slowed down, but Ghoul's window time is too short, as if he can basic attack again instantly.
But you're right that it is still too early to judge similar to the Unknown situation, and my change suggestion can be too much. However, after playing several matches I see his insane ability to move around map, injure potential, loop counter with pallet and window vault, … has too little punishments or downside other than that he cannot down you with the power. He has the movement power of Blight, pallet vault of Wesker and injure with deep wound of Legion, and yet he only has Legion's power downside.
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Another case where the killer is the main and unique character in the DLC, the first anime DLC, the LICENCE DLC, killer is really strong making A LOT of people buying him immediatly and before the next DLC, or right next, the patch with huge nerf will rise up. A "fair" technique to capt more money. Remember guys, above at all, BHVR is a private company, they care and want more and more MONEY, especially with licences. Everyone received 2 skins from Tokyo Ghoul immediatly after unlock this chapter, bug, obviously, ohhh money is envolved, so in the same day this bug was fixed, why this bug was fix so quickly? coicidence? hmm. Healthy schedule now? or making this game more acceptable for FNAF fans buy more when hes come? everything is money guys. The Ghoul will be nerfed in the future 100% sure, now just capitilize.
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Truth be told, it cuts my heart very deeply.
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huge bias.
lmao what weakness bro. TELL ME WHAT WEAKNESS.
Even on indoor maps he can speed vault god pallets and hit you. + all the glitches. Add in bamboozle so he is even more powerfull.
Unhook? gl he is already back on the hook. Try to exit? gl he reaches both exits easily and can block doors.
People want to bring nurses and blights, but at least you can loop them or run away or do something. with blight you can even dodge him and do mindgames.
Ghoul is just average m1 killer on some loops (for now ppl learning him) and than he goes infront of you and forces you do go back to those same loops that have no pallets now. This ignoring his pallet vault speed when enraged.
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they will fix some of these im sure. He just too fast. Faster than billy. Faster than blight. He almost like nurce but nurce has fatigue this guy seem isnt but he has slowdown after cancel. His slide is main problem/ Nether his power or playstyle just will add another anti camp feature like that was with singularity , xeno ect ect.
Post edited by LordHeXaGoN on0 -
Community is certainly having trouble figuring out how to counter him and explain it to others in a way that everyone gradually understands. But so far its still possible to escape the trial so i wouldnt call him overpowered.
-9 -
He is a bit. He is still genrushable, and his main counter is stealth.
-2 -
Boy i sure do love being tunneled off hook by The Ghoul with Lethal for the 900th time
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New gameplay? Where? Mending every 2 seconds? We had that already
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The biggest problem with the killer is its a hit scan shoot and not projectile like huntress deathslinger. This mean the moment you press the button the server counts the hit instead of it taking time to get to you and counting as a hit.
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Nah, he needs a nerf like everyone is saying. Sorry
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As someone who has played a lot of Legion waiting for his buff, seeing Ghoul compared to him is hilarious to me.
Legion's power turns into 50/50 pallet standoffs. He can't even see blood or scratch marks in his power.
Ghoul is a Blight rush into an autoaim Deathslinger shot. It's the most braindead injure in the game.6 -
Yeah, it's wild that they made the excuse of making it a hit scan with auto aim for console players - but they don't make that same line of reasoning for other ranged killers.
You have the mouth on you for a millisecond and you transition behind the wall? It doesn't matter.
You get bit, you make distance a little, he cuts you off, you go down, you go on the hook, you get unhooked, they come back and tunnel you.
If aura reading is involved - copy and paste that onto other survivors without the tunneling. More and more I see they transition to Alien Instinct/BBQ with Blood Echo to counter Iron Will.
If not using Iron Will, they find you with aura reading if not using Distortion.
If not using either of those things and full on gen regression, it doesn't matter, just fling yourself around and let the auto aim do the work for you.
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Hmm. I think the mobility aspect of it is also a large part of why it's hitscan – both because of the latency considerations when moving at speed to get a second hit (not great feeling for anyone) but also for the sake of reusing mechanics between the movement and the survivor damaging. It makes sense in the context of the rest of the powerset design; if it wasn't hitscan then the feeling when it comes to mobility would be bad, and the consistency for am-I-injuring-or-grabbing-scenery-and-being-pulled-miles would get very bad…
The area for the hit detection is just exaggerated. I don't even think it's a true autoaim, it just hitscans a big old cylinder instead of a raw. Some degree of that would make sense (see injured survivor hitboxes for one reason why), it just needs to be… narrower.
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The range of it is quite extreme, my comp friend told me that his range is 22 meters while Deathslinger's is 16 meters.
They just have so much in their kit and the auto aim helps them track and find people easier - they don't need to be auto aim if the other ranged killers are not auto aim. It lowers the skill required as it autolocks with the mouth on the survivor and because they can launch themselves ahead of you, you cannot create distance in enough time.
+ the vaulting that they do, even Wesker (someone that they are similar to) cannot vault and hit you right away. With Wesker, you can vault, they vault, and you can vault back over the pallet as counterplay?
Kaneki? Vaults extremely fast over the pallet and hits you right away, it's a joke.
Kaneki plays in a similar way to many mobility killers, but does it far better with no drawbacks.
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The damage and mobility ranges should really be different, that's for sure. Probably should reduce the range at which he can inflict damage. Although, I think there should remain some degree of broadness in when it will count as a hit; Deathslinger is never trying to make a shot while moving at 22m/s, and none of the ranged killers have their power go on cooldown needing a complete reset if it doesn't get used immediately. It needs some concessions.
TBH, I think the problem with Wesker is that his vaults are oftentimes useless. It's not that Kaneki's are too strong with the whole Enraged thing, it's that Wesker's are too weak to the point it's mostly a weird trap to send yourself off a cliff.
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No, I completely disagree here on the Wesker vaults. Similar to Kaneki, they have the mobility AND has counterplay. What I just described is counterplay to a Wesker vaulting the pallet, especially if you're injured. You vault the pallet back over (something I learned from playing against him on my own as he's stuck in the animation) - there is NO animation or concession with a Kaneki leading people to have to greed pallets or outright stunning him.
There needs to be counterplay for the killer, every killer has it, so saying that the vaulting is not an issue and that Wesker needs a buff in this regard is not it.
Edit: even if you are not implying Wesker's vaults are weak and need a buff, Kaneki still needs something to offer counterplay. As it stands right now, there is no counterplay unless you want to stealth around the map and do gens with Iron Will.
Why many of them opt for Blood Echo and aura reading - something needs to give with the killer and it's a shame on Behavior's development team to create an oppressive killer with little to no counterplay.
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The most awfull, anti-fun, excessive strong design in years… well done devs…….
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I play Dead by Daylight since 2017 and I have never seen a killer broken and overpowered like The Ghoul. I don't get that feeling even playing against a good Nurse.
Insane mobility around the map, literally FREE injuries even without aiming correctly plus it gives you the deepwound effect, covers huge distances and knockdown survivors with zero cooldown after cancelling the leap. There's literally nothing the players can do to battle this. This killer needs serious nerfs ASAP.
The blood moon event is going to be a disaster and I won't play the game until they nerf this killer, I'm good. Well done devs, excellent design 👏
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I find it extremely hard to believe that anything is as broken or overpowered as 5-blink Nurse or the total mess that was release Legion. Ghoul is strong, but it's not that farcically strong (now, perk power creep helping OTOH – then again, Nurse coexisted with original Moris and BNP, depending which part of 2017 you mean)
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He is right there with the examples you mention. And now it's even worse because the game is more popular and a lot more people playing it since back then.
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He needs some cooldown after his dashes. This is overbuffed Billy 2.0 and coldown might be only solution. I would agree that his hits over pallets and around solid obstacles are problematic, but those could be workable in theory. BHVR urgently needs to think about new business model for this game, currently their strategy mostly relies on overbuffed killer sales that defy almost any mechanic
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This is way more problematic than Chucky or Xeno or SM were at launch IMHO… this is a Nurse level situation, he is that strong.
Mobility Killers are not healthy for this game if they aren't seriously controlled, and we have three that are basically not controlled - Blight, Nurse, Ghoul. It's just not fair, Survivors cannot keep up with it so they run the roughest stuff, which makes it harder for everyone else. These types of superfast Killers have ruined the tierlists by outmoding more modest, balanced Killers - Killers like Wraith, Houndmaster, Singularity, and Artist for example, all of which are decent, balanced Killers that feel FAIR to play against as Survivor. Tell me, do you feel like playing against a juiced up Kaneki, Nurse, or Blight feels fair?
Because I don't. Now imagine how casual players feel, when looping - one of the more fun aspects of this game - simply isn't an option.
Mobility Killers faster than something like Legion or Wesker that do not have enough limits, or without teleports like Sadako or Dredge, need to be consigned to the dustbin and not come back. Killers like Nurse, Blight, and Ghoul should NOT be a template for future designs. They're almost always much more problematic than they have any right to be and facing them frankly just is not fun. That's if they aren't glitchy messes like Wesker and his hitboxes are.2 -
Simple and mid does not mean "bad Killer". Oni is considered a high B, and Artist is an A tier. Both have very simple kits and are frankly kinda mid compared to what other Killers can do, but both are considered strong Killers.
Hell, even mid Killers can do damage, look at the havoc Myers and Freddy can wreak now after their buffs. They'll never be above a B tier and they still create serious problems in most lobbies. Most Survivors STILL have trouble with them. It's only the really good Survs that don't.
Some C tiers can even be better than expected - even weak Killers can be just fine, they just won't win any competitions against super good Survs. Go ask a casual Survivor how they feel about Ghostface, Pig, and Doctor sometime. Really good Survivors class all three as quite weak, and they are, but your average Surv? Yeah they aren't winning those rounds. Even stealth, a built in headtrap, and simple antiloop are enough to create problems for the majority of Survivor players.It's one reason I think we need better rankings of strength and a better concept of how to grade Killer power than tierlists. For the average player you cannot learn much by pointing to something that shows how good a decent Killer player is with a given Killer against a really good team, because that doesn't reflect the reality that most Survivors are not really good. Hell, most Killers aren't either.
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the couple games I’ve played it’s hard to tell if you are being outplayed by bugs or intended design
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The main issue I have the Ghoul's current kit that makes him feel unreasonable to go against is the stun he inflicts on the survivor when he gets a hit. The other problem I see is the range for him to get a leaping bite attack is WAY too long. Fix those two things and I suspect he'd feel far more fair to go up against.
As it currently stands, he can do the bite attack at insane range with a single click, is pulled right on top of you, AND you are held in place while he does so so he can continue the chase with little downtime, all while you end up wasting your Sprint Burst/Lithe/Overcome/etc.
I don't even think you need to change the speed of his leaps, or the range at which he can use the tentacles for mobility. You just need to cut the range he can attack with the tentacles by half to make it feel fair.
Edit: And for the naysayers, this is coming from someone that primarily plays killer (2k+ hours) and has been playing the Ghoul frequently since he dropped. I don't want his mobility destroyed, because that's what makes him feel fun, but the hits shouldn't be this easy.6 -
Wow wow wow thats a lot, of comments for a short period of time. Guess wich side im on? You will never guess it.
I want him to be "skullmerchant", and thus i have to be done with One eyed king who destroying this game!
average survivior experiense btw0
