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Kaneki is one of the more uniquely designed (and balanced) killers, and he doesn't actually need ner

He gets a free injure, and some slowdown with Deep Wound, but the price he pays for it is having a power that cannot directly down you. At the same time, he cannot injure you with his power as efficiently as Legion can, and Legion is a pretty bad killer. They also share the same inherent weakness in being purely M1 - safe loops and strong pallets are extremely effective against both Legion and Kaneki, except for niche situations where vaulting the pallet can help. (In Kaneki's case, he has to actually connect his tendrils to you to get the faster vault.)


His method of trying to down you with his power is incredibly unique. Instead of throwing it at you, he needs to get around you, and block your path with his body, then incur a brief fatigue period to give you a chance to vault a window or pallet before he downs you. This is what makes the killer so interesting to play with (and against.) He's not throwing danger at you, he IS the danger, and that's cool. Not only that, but the way he has to play to take you down during a loop is interesting and allows for play from both sides because you can anticipate where he's going to leap and try to base your pathing off of that.


"But he gets unfair hits on me around corners with his power!!! He can't even see me!!!"


Alright so, first of all, there's nothing wrong with a generously applicable injure, when the price to pay for it is so heavy (needing to down you with a melee attack.)


Second, here's the reason why his power can damage you despite there obstacles being in the way:


The nature of his power necessitates the hit going through if you're around a corner or behind a gen because it has a travel time. It's like how Huntress hits you right before you round a corner, that's still a legitimate hit, it just doesn't have a delay. Because Kaneki's power has a delay, it LOOKS weird, but it needs to be this way because there are only two alternatives:

  1. He just lets you go after he *already lands the hit* on you because it "doesn't look correct"
  2. He vacuums you back around the corner to "make the hit look better" and make you lose more distance in the process.

In the first scenario, it feels terrible to play, and in the second scenario, it feels *even worse* to play against than the average player currently perceives it to be.

The hit is perfectly fine as-is in my opinion. There were concessions that had to be made in terms of "feel" because Kaneki doesn't damage you immediately (again, like with my Huntress example.) He hits you around the corner because he locked onto you BEFORE you rounded the corner. It only feels weird because you don't INSTANTLY take damage - he has to fly to you first. On a technical level it's perfectly fair.

It is 100% working as intended.

However, I would certainly be down with reducing the duration of his enrage animation while also reducing the amount of time that the survivor is stationary so it's fair for both sides (since I don't personally feel like he's overpowered - he's the only dash killer where his dash doesn't have the ability to down survivors, so it's actually fair for it to work the way it does. Even Pig's dash can down people.)

This solution would resolve the janky/stuttery feeling while being power-neutral.


The best players in the world played as and against him on the PTB and correctly surmised that he'd be a pretty good, but not overpowered, killer. Even so, BHVR actually did rebalance Kaneki coming from the PTB by removing his hug techs in exchange for making the sliding addon basekit. Honestly I prefer him this way personally, but I understand why some would prefer his PTB design.


"But he can down me in between loops so easily! I can't get away!"

Well first of all, Lithe exists (but counterplay also exists for Kaneki - he can try to grab you as you try to Lithe, so you have to use it intelligently) to help you connect tiles and loops together. Second, you know who else can kill you REALLY fast if you're in an open area? Deathslinger, Trickster, Wesker. You complaining about them, too?

"Okay, then why not increase his fatigue after power so I actually have a chance to get somewhere?"

Because *that would destroy the killer.* What you're asking for here, is going to be the WORST POSSIBLE VERSION of this killer because you'd disincentivize using his power in interesting, skillful ways, basically shoehorning him into only using it when he's guaranteed to catch up on you, with zero risk-taking from the player's part. You're asking him to be weaker than Legion while simultaneously being more boring. They can't increase the downtime after his leap without just turning him into Diet Legion.

The whole point of his ability and his skillcap is to dash intelligently to cut off your path, and give you a moment or two to try to get away before he hits you. If you make him take too long before he can hit you, even after playing correctly and performing a good dash, he's going to be piss weak. He's already an M1 killer.

His gameplay loop is to try to cut you off and then down you. It is NOT designed to "cut you off, stare at you for 3 seconds and let you get somewhere safe before he can hit you". That's not only unfair to him since he can't down you directly with his power anyway, it's also dumb to play against. You're asking for something dumb to play against.


Overall, Kaneki is a well-balanced killer that brings a unique gameplay experience to both sides of the Trial. He doesn't need nerfs.

Comments

  • Blueberry
    Blueberry Member Posts: 14,459

    He’s kinda of what Legion should have been. Way too early to call for nerfs. Impression so far is high A tier, which imo is what most killers should be brought up to.

  • Leon_Loves_Cheryl
    Leon_Loves_Cheryl Member Posts: 272

    Agreed completely. Not as ridiculously oppressive as S tier characters but not a pushover. Very interesting way to make an M1 killer actually threatening. It's a good design. 100% agreed on the A-tier classification

  • Rokku_Rorru
    Rokku_Rorru Member Posts: 2,796

    Honestly I'm okay with the hits at close range, but the long long range he can confirm hits is probably the main complaint I have, and the hitting through elevations jankly (but I'm sure they said they cant fix this)

    Maybe the issue is with deep wounds still being too long as it'd be nice to find a balance between being able to heal and being pressured from healing?

    The other issue is with how hooks and maps are designed too, particularly Borgo and the Corn maps where there isn't much, I feel they need brought closer to the new eyerie killer shack only map.

    I think it's great people enjoy them, I also think it's wonderful they are accessible to play. They will probably recieve some tweaks to the sliding/scampering/1st hit jank I imagine from my time playing against them.

    I don't think they are A-Tier currently, I think they will end up A-Tier tho post fixes, even the likes of Otz etc thinks they are really strong rn. I would say however they do suffer in the likes of RPD I've experienced.

    Have you played much against them @Leon_Loves_Cheryl? How do you deal with them?

  • Leon_Loves_Cheryl
    Leon_Loves_Cheryl Member Posts: 272

    1. Try to predict him. Is he going to cut you off with his leap or is he trying to catch up behind you?

    2. He's an M1 killer. He cannot down you with his power. He can injure you with it, but he's even less efficient at it than Legion. Yes, Legion, while simultaneously sharing their inherent weakness against being ran around loops (no way to hit through or over them.)

    3. His power is only nichely usable when looping, so position yourself safely (be near buildings or tiles that reliably waste time for the Killer.)

    4. If for whatever reason you cannot reliably position yourself properly, Kaneki doesn't typically use Exhaustion perks which means perks such as Lithe and Sprint Burst will help you connect safe tiles (or reach them in the first place) efficiently. But it's also not that simple because he can counter your Exhaustion perk by grabbing onto you if he's smart, so you have to make sure his power is on cooldown (or at least make sure he's out of sight) before you try to reach another tile/loop.

    It's clearly a very interesting killer to play on both sides, and counterplay certainly exists. Most of the things you're able to do against Legion or Pig will work just as well against him. The irony is that Pig actually gets downs more consistently than Kaneki using their powers, since she actually has a lethal dash and he does not. Should we nerf Pig?

  • Rokku_Rorru
    Rokku_Rorru Member Posts: 2,796
    1. so the issue with this point is the red circle isn't usually where he lands i've found, now that the slide was made basekit, it doesnt really translate to his readability very well. I find he sucks at loops but getting to the next loop is where its very hard, but its map dependant.
    2. Yeah, that's true, it's not much different to nurse though with how quick they can come out their power while sliding, I'm wondering if this is what will get targeted, especially since it has synergy with m1 perks unlike Nurse.
    3. Lithe is what I started using, sprint burst is harder to manage against him since he can stop you and cause your exhastion meter management to go out the window (if you had it like a second or 2 behind ready). Windows I find are the best way to deal with him but it's map dependant again.

      I think it's great he is fun to play but I don't find him very fun to play against, but that's just my opinion, there are to many maps rn (which is probably the issue honestly) that have like 5 pallets or a couple of windows with too much space between, mainly the corn maps and Borgo so to speak.

      So I do agree they need to keep this killer intact as people love playing them, and I think they should stay that way, but there are cases namely speaking because of the slide being made basekit, which have been oversights. I think them having a max range on their first hit (like needing to get close in a radius then bite not just outright get the bite first lunge) but keeping the rest would honestly be the easiest way, even if it still hit over windows and pallets (Thats how its intended anyways). would give it more a fun back and forth without killing the fun mobility he has.
  • Mikempk67
    Mikempk67 Member Posts: 59

    He definitely needs nerfed. A longer cooldown and louder sound cue when they cancel Kagune Leaps at the very least. Alongside fixing the Kagune Lunge auto aim..

  • YuffieGreatestWaifu
    YuffieGreatestWaifu Member Posts: 478

    God Pallets do not work, he has a vault attack that is A-tier his dash attacks are not avoidable if you duck only using corner, He has amazing hook and gen pressure he has no real weakness.

  • terumisan
    terumisan Member Posts: 2,186

    i only played against him like 3 times and the counterplay for him is my play style stealth. i guess i'm one of the few guys who likes to use fixated but because i like this play style i don't know how to loop properly

  • Axcia_7
    Axcia_7 Member Posts: 26

    I agree with a lot of this- BUT I do think he has a lot of bloat to his kit. I dont think he needs hinder, deepwound, enraged mode.
    If you can play kaneki right youre always enraged and the punishment for losing it is not very important. Just make 3 dashes base kit and up some numbers.

    also I do think there is room to tweak his cooldown. very minimally, but theres room. Right now he can backrev and completely destroy your chance to move to a loop. Not hold W, move loops. I think the cooldown needs tobe just long enough where if the killer is mindlessly playing kaneki it's not beneficial, but if he guesses ahead and plays smart it will be very rewarding

  • Axcia_7
    Axcia_7 Member Posts: 26

    I don't think he is as bad as people think he is. But I do think he is still in a bad spot rn