I think generators should take longer to finish

We'd be willing to test that (depending on how much) but we don't think it's a good idea overall. What we got now is kinda like "chase, killer gets hook, a gen or 2 gets nuked, repeat until gens finish or everyone is dead". We got a very variable timeframe and not a flat added time to everything.

Generators used to be completed faster, I dont recall the exact time but I do recall them extending the time it takes to complete a generator to 90s. There's also no longer a 'gen tap' for survivors to cancel regression from a kick, we have to progress to a certain point before it ceases its regression.

Fun, in my opinion, doesnt always equate to winning. I feel that gets lost in the fog somewhere. To most that isnt the case, winning is where their fun is at — I like to meme, vibe, goof off with survivors or with my SWF regardless of the Killers good or bad manners.

This is just a straight buff to killers though.

Gens take longer without slowdowns, so now killers can bring chase perks instead. But killers that bring chase perks now instead of slowdowns perform just fine.

So now instead of a gen taking 120 seconds because it got hit with Pain Res or Pop, now it takes 120 seconds by default and the killer is ending their chases faster in addition to that. This does absolutely nothing but provide a massive buff to killers when they are already, from the numbers we've seen, it a pretty good spot.

I'd rather see all gen regression perks get removed and simply have gens auto regress when not being worked on.

There is nothing to indicate that this is actually the case. This is a presumption that's spread like wildfire to the point where it's commonly accepted, without any evidence to back it up.

What, seven out of how many killer players say they -need- to tunnel, and you take that as 'evidence'?

There's also plenty of killer players that say that tunnelling is not required, so that counters that.

These forums aren't that populated, bud, and there's not that many people spouting the same story. Even among fervent proponents of further killer buffs, there's a few who will begrudgingly (or sometimes even boastfully) admit that their KR without tunnelling is -fine-.

And yeah, you can get a 4K with every killer without tunnelling. Because not every match will be against perfect survivor teams. Hens and his cohorts played a series of matches where they didn't tunnel, camp, slug, or use ANY killer power, and they averaged around 90% KR, and they're not cheaters. Anything they can do, you can too, theoretically.

You have to remember that players are subject to heavy bias. Killer players that tunnel to grab extra wins will push their MMR above where they should be, based on their mechanical and tactical skill. Additionally, a lot of killer players hold up tunnelling victories as evidence that they 'needed' to tunnel, but they have no idea how the game would've gone if they hadn't tunnelled, making it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

So when you actually look at the statistics, they all favour killers. Higher WR, over 50% KR, extremely long winstreaks, by basically every metric, killers are doing better than survivors.

A couple of forum killers saying 'I -feel- like I need more buffs' doesn't really mean much by comparison.

You're not getting it.

The average killer isn't on that skill level

Firstly, they don't need to be. Hens and cohorts played without ANY killer powers. That is a self-imposed restriction that doesn't exist in the game, which means everyone else is going to have a -much- easier time replicating his result.

Secondly, the average killer also isn't at his MMR rank, so they're going to get easier matches to begin with, provided MMR is working correctly.

Thirdly, you can't claim that killers can't win without tunnelling if you dismiss the ability to do so with such high extra stipulations (No powers, and extreme consistency) as 'too difficult', because at that point, the problem isn't the game balance. The problem is that you're not doing your best. You COULD learn to play like Hens. You opting not to is not a reason to upend the game's balance.

It doesn't sound like YOU can.

I have. So have you. So has anyone who's played killer for any amount of time.

And I know this is going to confuse you, so let me clarify.

What you are thinking of with a 'swf' is not just up to four survivors playing together. You are thinking Team Eternal. You are thinking heavily coordinated swiffers that are armed to the teeth with syringes and BNPs.

You are thinking of the Henses of the survivor side, in short.

The reality is much different, because a huge chunk of swiffers that you've beaten, you probably didn't recognise as swiffers, because they don't play to that level. Most of the swiffers you go up against aren't doing call-outs, they're discussing the latest Nintendo Direct or complaining about politics.

Ironically, you're dismissing Hens, while trying to get me to prove that any killer of any skill level can beat the equivalent.

Just as a reminder, by official stats, the actual overall escape rate of 4-man swiffers is 43%. Isolated to high MMR, it's 48.3%. So this allegedly overpowered thing that is only held in check by tunnelling, according to you?

Doesn't win most of the time. Which means that a ton of killers have done exactly what you're asking for.

And before you go 'well they can only do so because of tunnelling', you have to remember that these high MMR swiffers would probably know this too, and they can coordinate against it. STB, DS, OTR, they can stack a lot of deterrents for tunneling, which would drastically limit its impact. In other words, specifically in the high MMR regions, tunnelling -should- be affecting the winrates less.

You offer no valid argument that counters my suggestion that nerfing tunneling would effect kill rates.

I don't need to. Killers are overperforming. Even if they took a cut to their killrates, that doesn't mean they are in hot water.

Besides, if MMR works as it should, it'd resolve itself in short order anyway. Once the crutch gets kicked out, some killers might experience a downturn where they can't cheese out a win anymore, but they'll eventually sort back to the level they're supposed to be at.

As opposed to killers that aren't as good as Hens and balk at the suggestion of getting to that level, still coming up with the expectation to beat anything that is put across from them.

I think your the one not getting it, you basically implied that because hens can get 4k without tunneling it means anyone can which isn't the case.

Why not?

Is Hens doing anything that you can't? Are you accusing him of cheating?

Again, also, you are aiming at the wrong point, because Hens had an additional restriction stacked on top of it AND hit an absurdly high consistency. You don't have to anywhere NEAR as good as Hens. No one is asking you to play without killer powers and you shouldn't be aiming for a 90% KR. You will have a -significantly- easier time winning without tunnelling than Hens did for this challenge.

But you do need to actually try. And that's the problem, because you have already thrown in the towel but aren't willing to accept the loss. If you're not willing to play to Hens' level, you can't expect Hens' results. It doesn't make these results unattainable, it just means you're unwilling to do so.

Which is fine, play casual if you want, but don't expect the entire game to be upended because you want to have your cake and eat it too.

You can't play casual and still expect to win consistently against competitive teams. If those survivors worked hard to get as good as they are, they deserve to win against someone who abjectly refuses to rise to that challenge.

Also you say killers are over performing but the latest kill rate is 60/40 overall which is exactly what the Devs were aiming for so they are not over performing at all.

Except BHVR's intent is not the balance standard. Just because BHVR have a goal to have killers overperform, doesn't mean the killers aren't overperforming when they meet that standard. Killers win significantly more than they lose, and they certainly win more than survivors do. So for the sake of balance, they can take a hit.

By your logic casual killers shouldn't get 4k because they don't practice enough.

That's not at all what I'm saying!

You seem to be incapable of coming to any conclusion that isn't the extreme of one end.

You don't deserve to get NO 4Ks, and you don't deserve to get 4K every time.

Sometimes you'll win. Sometimes you'll lose. You won't be able to win every match, -especially- if you're not willing to put in the hours to get better at the game.

 I'm a casual player and I'm regularly going against swf teams with coms and I struggle without tunneling.

If you are a casual player, why are you resorting to tunnelling to secure wins that you can't have otherwise? Because it sounds to me like you're way more competitive than you're willing to admit to.

If other killers experience the same difficulty as I do the kill rates will drop it's basic math.

Drop from what? Because, again, balance-wise, they can afford to take a drop. A steep one, too. Most games don't permit this kind of deviation from balance, just because BHVR has come out and openly stated they are balancing in killers' favour doesn't mean the game is balanced.

You have not proven, in any capacity, that killers would be underpowered without tunnelling, camping and slugging.

If other killers experience the same difficulty as I do the kill rates will drop it's basic math.

First off: We know they don't. There's killers out there that are better than you, that are having a much easier time.

Secondly: As mentioned before, there's a real possibility that tunnelling is kicking your MMR upwards, above your actual skill bracket, so when tunnelling gets axed, you may get a couple matches where you're forced to take an L that you would otherwise circumvent by tunnelling, but you will eventually go up against opponents of your skill level, at which point your killrate will stabilise again. We won't know the impact of tunnelling until it is gone.

Stop refering to pros when they are not the main player base.

You do the same, bud. Because when you're complaining about swiffers, again, as I said before, you are not thinking of the dummy squad that's having a casual friday evening chat with the bros while playing some DBD.

You are not taking the full picture of everything you're going up against, you are ONLY highlighting the players that are better than you, and making them out to be a problem.

That's why I said that YOU have done what you demand of me. You have beaten TONS of swiffers, you just don't know it, because the only ones you'll register as swiffers are the ones that actually bested you.

But even on top of that, remember: Swiffers still suck compared to killers! By BHVR's stats, 4-man swiffers are consistently losing. And if you want to point at the main playerbase, guess what? They lose MORE.

I wasn't getting easier opponents I was getting same people over and over.

You know that thing you said, about the killer complaints being evidence of a requirement to tunnel?

What you're saying here suggests that there's no survivor players left. Which would be indicative of much more severe issues that plague the survivor side.

Eventually I started tunneling which gave me kills I wouldn't have got otherwise but tunneling didn't get me to my mmr, I was already there.

Your MMR increases with every kill, so when you start tunnelling to secure extra kills, it will inflate your MMR.

Losing almost every match isn't fun.

Now imagine playing survivor.

It's interesting that you say about being in an MMR bracket above my skill level tho, this would apply to survivors that lose against me too. The fact they can't counter tunneling because they won't put the time and effort into learning how means they shouldn't be in that MMR bracket. By your own argument.

Survivors can't counter tunnelling. The best they can do is slap on a small collection of perks designed to specifically deal with that specific thing and hope for the best.

Well, that, or genrush.

But also, losing to someone once doesn't mean you don't belong in that MMR bracket. If they lose against you but beat four other killers at the same MMR, they actually belong in a higher MMR.

I'm not sure what your not getting with that stats, I'm not talking about game balance I'm talking about the balance bhvr wants and will aim for. If they are aiming for 60/40 yes it's balanced towards killer but saying killers could take a hit makes no sense because it would change the 60/40.

The 60/40 is not balance, it is nothing more than a guideline that BHVR used and they may not even be sticking to it anymore. Especially if the survivor pool is drying out, they will have to course correct, which can include dropping the 60/40.

60 is not the benchmark for balance, and it's certainly not the target for any discussion about whether it's possible to win with a certain playstyle.

For 9 years killers have tunneled their way to victory, I really don't see that changing.

That's not entirely true. DS was, at one point, a serious deterrent. It getting scuppered in 6.1 is what put tunnelling back on number 1. There is definitely a way to get killers to stop tunnelling, we'll just have to see whether what BHVR comes up with will do the trick or not.

Reason being it's a valid tactic

Whether it's 'valid' or not has little bearing on what the game needs when its playerbase is dying out. Survivors have been suffering through this issue for long enough, and at some point they're just done with it. If you're truly going up against the same people over and over again, well…

That kinda suggests there's no one else left.

You can try to 'valid tactic' your way onwards, but eventually there will be no one left to 'valid' against.

Survivors can counter tunneling with use of perks and team play.

But team play is not something the individual survivor can do, and even then, it won't stop a hard tunnel, only stretch it a bit.

The 60/40 guideline bhbr has been aiming for still stands unless they say otherwise.

Pretty sure they're permitted to change their minds without informing you.

If DS was so effective at curbing the tunneling, why revert it? Seems they nerfed it because killers were not killing as much as the Devs wanted due to not being able to tunnel as effectively.

DS got gutted as part of the meta shake-up, not for the KR boost. It's the same reason Ruin got almost the exact same nerf, which wouldn't make sense if they only wanted to boost KR.

team play can be done in solo

Spoken like someone who's never played support in either a MOBA or a hero shooter. Even the simplest of teamplay tasks can be completely impossible to achieve if your teammates aren't cooperating.

You can't control your teammates. Thus the idea of 'just get better at teamplay' doesn't always work.

As for the 60/40 last they said that was what they were aiming for, yes they can change it without saying but are we to go be what they last said or if they changed their mind without saying? I think it makes more sense to go by what they last said they are aiming for which is 60/40.

But according to you, the announced nerfs to tunnelling, camping and slugging are going to bring down the killrate. If they are not planning any compensatory buffs, then wouldn't it make more sense to assume that they're fine with dropping the killrate?

I highly suspect any anti tunnel introduced would be similar, they wont remove it if they want the kill rate to remain.

So you're suggesting that they're going to basically toss out a couple months' worth of development time on a not-really solution?

Because if so, those gen speeds definitely aren't coming down. We'd basically be looking at a nothing-patch where nothing happens. Which doesn't seem all that logical to me.

the anti slug

They never implemented any anti-slug.

perks designed to counter these tactics being nerfed

The only one that copped a nerf was DS, as part of the meta shake-up. At the same time, they made OTR into an anti-tunnel perk, and they've since released another anti-tunnel. They have been ramping up the countermeasures to these tactics, and now they've announced they're going to do more.

Survivor has surrender option, that is anti slug

Killers winning faster when slugging is not 'anti-slug'. This feature was not announced with any intent of the sort given to it.

Literally nothing else of what you've said has any evidence to back it up.

Same happened with chaos shuffle because killers couldn't slow the gens down.

Was it that, or was it the knowledge that all anti-tunnel measures were also knocked out?

Because, quick reminder, when gens actually -were- slowed down in 6.1, tunnelling ALSO went up. Why? Because anti-tunnel got nerfed.

It's almost like tunnelling is a cheap and easy shortcut to victory that will be used irrespective of gen speeds.

Keep in mind that, by definition, in any match that a killer loses, the gens went 'too fast'. There's no gen speed that will never run into the 'gens too fast, gotta tunnel' mindset.

There's a dividing line between the two, buddy.

Because the surrender measure was much wider than slugging. It contained four points, only one of which had to do with slugging. It just tangentially scraped the slugging issue, it's not their anti-slug solution.

Because it tangentially touches on slugging.

How is making slugging stronger 'anti-slugging'?

BHVR should adjust generator times every few months by a single second, one way or another just for fun
imagine the patch notes
- Basekit ruin
- generator completion time reduced to 89 seconds (was 90 seconds)