http://dbd.game/killswitch
Phase 2 of QOL and future changes
Phase 2 has some changes listed to slugging camping and tunneling. Phase 1 is pretty tame but 2 seems game changing. If they were to punish tunneling camping and slugging to the point where it is not viable anymore to do it I hope this encourages buffs to killers so they can be fun to play. Reason why killers can’t be buffed is because they are kinda restricted into how tunneling camping and slugging are currently. The only things that I can think of for each is that they can increase the anti camp meter, basekit unbreakable and maybe something like baby sitter basekit ? Honestly idk but it ain’t good for killer that’s for sure but if this is what it takes to give killers buffs to be able to play without these methods and make survivor better than so be it I guess. I will have to just wait and see because who knows maybe they’ll just increase the borrowed time from 10 seconds to like 12 and change the anti camp to 16 meters to 18 lamao
Comments
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Nerfing tunneling, slugging and camping in a signifcant way is the only way to really improve the game's health gameplay wise. These strategies are insanely unfun to go against, so they shouldn't be encouraged, not like they are now.
If these nerfs are done right, it will create a much better foundation for the game. And then, the killers that will start struggling too much, can definitely be buffed in more healthy ways as well. So I am very hopfeful that BHVR will implement proper anti-tunneling, anti-camping and anti-slugging changes to bring this game into a much better fundamental state.
37 -
this argument is literally on the level of BHVR's decision to completely destroy Skull Merchant as an attempt of damage control in order to actually make community go quiet on her until she gets properly reworked and rebuffed again (not soon lol), and is quite literally looking at the aspect of game health from quite an one-sided perspective.
These strategies are insanely unfun to go against, so they shouldn't be encouraged, not like they are now.
splitting gens is also very unfun to face, Boil Over and sabo strats are also very unfun to face, yet sabo was buffed for example.
If these nerfs are done right, it will create a much better foundation for the game. And then, the killers that will start struggling too much, can definitely be buffed in more healthy ways as well. So I am very hopfeful that BHVR will implement proper anti-tunneling, anti-camping and anti-slugging changes to bring this game into a much better fundamental state.
anti-camping, anti-tunneling and anti-slugging perks are insanely strong right now. There is no healthy way to nerf camping, tunneling and slugging at the moment because killer's main objective, hooking, is already on dead legs.
Doing any kind of straight up nerf and then waiting to see how things will go over time to see what buffs killers should receive as compensation is literally extremely irresponsible thing to do.
All pof these strats are still meta because average player has no intention to ever learn the counterplay. Do you think they would be so popular if people using them noticed it doesn't yield success to them nearly as often as they think it does? Of course not.
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No, because they'll do what they've done before and say that "any killer buff is a buff to tunneling/camping." We'll get nerfed and get nothing in return.
-11 -
when have they said that?
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Yes, I must reiterate that anti-tunnel slug perks are insanely powerful. People don't understand how much momentum you lose by being hit by just 1 of them. "I had this survivor dead to rights, but then I got stunned and now have to re-chase to kill them, or else I've just wasted a chase." "I had the whole team down, after all 4 went down in 45 seconds, but 1 person got up and now they've fully reset." I can't even think up the survivor equivalents to these situations, because they'd be too ridiculous.
I also notice that when killers get nerfed, they get nerfed, overall weaker than before. But when survivors get nerfed, 95% of the time it's an even exchange, if not more. Like look at the Buckle Up change. Not only can you still do the Buckle Up/FTP combo by using WGLF/Made For This instead, but what Buckle Up got changed to is literally giving a Sprint Burst WITH no exhaustion. Or when they changed DH from being a free distance perk to one that gave a sprint burst for even more distance than before. But killers using strategy and conserving STBFL stacks with their M2? "Overpowered." That's why simply hitting a survivor with Deathslinger's chain, or simply infecting a survivor with Nemesis, now loses you stacks.
Or we can look at buffs. When they changed Resurgence from 50% auto-healed to 70% just to counter the possibility of Hemorrhage-using killers. Well, what about the killers who don't use it? The survivor gets healed to full seconds after they've got off hook. But when Mangled/Hemorrhage themselves got nerfed, it went from basically infinite duration and long duration to almost nothing. 90 seconds of Hemorrhage doesn't matter when the hook state alone is 70 seconds. You can see the double standards so clearly.
And you're right on who is really being catered to: the people who don't even want to learn or think. Someone was dying on a hill saying, "Every killer in the game has a clearly observable power, but Skull Merchant's is impossible to figure out even to experienced players." Apparently reading the killer's power description, which you can do without buying them, or looking up gameplay is too much work for people. Almost every game I've played, I've seen gameplay of before I bought it, or playing the game got me to watch someone else's gameplay. The level of effort, that's being called "too much" to learn killers and their counterplay, is less than even CoD at this point. Why are the devs working so hard to even the playing field with those players specifically in mind? They shouldn't be able to beat really good killers, as they nearly are able to now, because they literally don't care.
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I'll jump in here right away to try to reassure you, if any feature that's implemented changes kill rates drastically and in a negative manner (as you know we aim for approx 60% kill rate), we will make adjustments as necessary. These are QoL features, so focusing on game health and enjoyment, these are not balancing changes as such.
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I’m just worried that the QoL changes will make one side feel better, and as a consequence it will make the other side feel 1,000 times worse.
The vast majority of the anti-slugging suggestions on these forums want to punish killers for slugging, even if the survivors are forcing the killer to slug. And we know survivors would do this, because during the base kit unbreakable PTB, survivors were weaponing slugging, by bringing entire builds dedicated to forcing the killer to slug, and then laughing as the killers got punished for slugging.
And the same thing applies to anti-tunneling. How is that supposed to work, but also prevent survivors from weaponizing it, just like how survivors currently weaponize DS by having the recently unhooked survivor aggressively bodyblock and harass the killer?
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If you are tackling camping, tunneling and slugging, then this undeniably effects the balance of the game. Am I missing something?
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which is why I said we'd make adjustments as necessary, if it does impact kill rates etc negatively
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Im curious about what the adjustements will look like. As many others already pointed out, this could either heal or break dbd as we know it.
Tread carefully <38 -
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that by removing these strategies will drastically decrease the killrate of killers.
-8 -
Clearly not drastically. You can easily reach the 60% Killrate without any excessive tunneling, camping or slugging. Not saying that you will never need to slug or tunnel to win, you certainly will have to do it from time to time. But currently people are just doing it way too much and especially when it is not needed.
No Killer needs to tunnel or slug at 5 Gens. Yet many do. And this is because there will be changes. Do you really think it can go on like this with FNAF most likely bringing a surge of new players? How long do you think those will play if they go against xXForumKiller69Xx who thinks they need to slug everyone to win?
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Honestly, this game is better for killers if they don't have to tunnel or anything at all
Current game is balanced around all those boring tactics in mind, just kill it so we can actually play the game
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hopefully some good comes out of it and they can buff killers that struggle outside of doing that. Rn it’s too easy to completely turn the game around -most- of the time by deploying such strategies, so that drives the kill rate, then people trying to play in a way that doesn’t make others miserable and is fun don’t get the buffs they need because KR is being met from strategies. The ones that live by it’s the only way to win are going to swear you’re pouring holy water on the killer role. I think overall it will be good and get killers the buffs they need around gen times and chases while not making survivor role absolutely miserable. That’s what I hope for anyways. A game where killers and survivors can feel like they can play the game and not feel forced to slug, tunnel, camp, and rush gens to have a chance. Both sides at the top don’t like what’s going on, and it’s pretty clear that survivors are miserable being fodder before “getting good”. It just might work. I’m willing to try to break cycles.
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Exactly. As long as tunneling and slugging are as strong as they are, you cannot really give any meaningful Buffs. Because the Killrates are partially that high due to tunneling and slugging being so strong. But you also cannot give incentives to not slug or tunnel without making those "strategies" weaker, because the incentives would be absurdly strong to be better than slugging or tunneling.
I personally dont think that Killrates drop a lot when it is changed. Maybe at the start, because some players will need to adjust, if you won most of your games by tunneling the first person out or excessive slugging, you will have a hard time. But Killers who did not do this will not notice much of a difference and will have potentially easier games later on when Killers get buffed.
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The only things that I can think of for each is that they can increase the anti camp meter, basekit unbreakable and maybe something like baby sitter basekitThere's lot of other possibilities
Anti-slug: increase crawling speed, an 'anti-slug' meter like the anti-camp meter if the killer stands over the slug, basekit heal while crawling, You could have 50% of the amount that a survivor has healed on the ground by themselves (ie.g. not from being by another survivor) translate into healing progress when they get back up. You could have something more extreme like a slug meter where if the total time all survivors have spent on the ground exceeds X number of minutes, then they all get faster healing/unbreakable (which would be something like the anti 3 gen mechanic that rarely impacts a normal game and deals with the outliers they wish to address).
Anti-tunnel: The endurance coming off hook could be treated as its own unique endurance, so even if the killer hit it the survivor could still use OTR or DH. Killer powers could be disabled around the immediate area of an unhook. Adding in intangibility to survivors for the first few seconds. Making their haste coming off hook faster.
Anyway, that's just some of the things that crossed my mind or I've heard others suggest, I'm sure there's lots of other possibilities. The point isn't to say 'here's what BHVR should do', just to show there's lots of options.
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I imagine their data for however they are defining tunneling/slugging shows that that the killers who don't engage in that bhvr (heh) do just fine.
It's kind of like the anti-3 gen changes. If you never 3 genned you got a buff to gen kicking. If the change is something like that which doesn't even impact the vast majority of matches, it won't have a noticeable impact on statistics.
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I just want to chime in here, as I am a killer main who plays a fair share of survivors and know a lot of the bickering of my SWF comrades pretty well ^_-
Yeah, getting tunneled at 4 gens remaining is a pretty scummy tactic and there is nothing fun at it at all, same goes for camping just outside the range of the effective anti-camp range, but just as Narko said, this changes always come with the incredible big danger of being too much and unintentionally killing off entire playstyles or deleting killers from the publics eye.
In my regular SWF group there are people who legit think that killers are so strong that they can always aim for 12 hooks and anything less is despicable and camping and that they should burn - I might have embellished this a bit for dramatic purposes, but the community literally calls any tactical sound action of the killer, that doesn't involve truning their back to the hook and walking away, scummy and unfun and casually throw around the terms of camping or tunneling, but most survivors don't know jack of the life of full on killer mains.
The argument of high level play or high MMR ranges is tough to maintain without any numbers, but I know for a fact that the survivors that I play against as killer stand head and shoulders above the quality that my own or my friends survivor gameplay delivers. In most of my killer gameplay, I just don't have the luxury of hooking all 4 survivors and going for a casual 8 hooks before a kill, but even by ping ponging between two survivors, the players in the post game chat will constantly try to gaslight me into thinking that I didn't earn my win, even though they themselves went all out to do so and played with any trick in the book.
Ever since 6.1 survivors as a general split up on gens, so the pressure for the killer is already much higher then back in the days, because survivors are jsut THAT much more efficient about it. And like danielmaster explained, most survivors seem to have no idea how much a single DH or Flashlight safe with a successful getaway throws a wrench into a killers game plan. The traditional 90s gens already pose a big chip on the killers shoulders, but the new blood gens, while more engaging with all the moving around the map and promoting teamwork again, often pop so fast, that a killer literally has no time to waste and if you do the math, its practically impossible to do a 12 hook game within the timeframe of the bloodgens event; survivors usually aren't lining up to go down every 20s or so.
And a lot of survivor-only players absolutely downplay the impact the +10s hook timer has, EVEN if you don't camp the hook at all, as survivors have literally no pressure at all to get to the hook and can usually finish their gens before going for the rescue. The clock is perpetually ticking for the killer and without somehow turning it 3v1 asap, there is usually no respite. So while the survivor in me wouldn't mind a bit more breathing room, the killer in me already has so little room for error and even small mistakes, that the notion of widespread anti-tunnel and anti-slugging seems not very possible at all.
How is BHVR going to compensate killers for the massive loss in time efficency? Giving everyone +5% speed? That might be a start if you really want a 12 hook game from everyone. DBD never had a comeback mechanic, and this is something that I talk a lot about here on the forums regularly, but it might actually be the best way to tackle this issues.
-3 -
Good jokes. If you're not joking then you're delusional.
-17 -
60% kill rate except for Huntress who’s been at 53% for a year now cough cough
*oh and the other 6 killers below her. But a certain person said to “just get better” if I remember right?
-15 -
"You can easily reach the 60% Killrate without any excessive tunneling, camping or slugging." But the current killrate with all that is just around 60%, why? Do you really think that percentage will magically be maintained?
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You speak the truth.
-6 -
I’m willing to take a “wait and see” approach with these proposed changes. It’s very easy for people who never play killer to claim that killers should be able to win without ever tunneling, slugging or camping. Yes, there are matches where killers use these tactics when they don’t need to. But those of us who actually play killer also know that there are many situations where camping/tunneling/slugging is the correct play or it is necessary to apply pressure against teams with an unfair coordination advantage on comms. It’s going to be a very tall task for BHVR to reduce the unnecessary use of these tactics while also not punishing the legitimate use of them.
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kinda curious if MMR is so broken because killers who can’t do a real loop resort to tunneling and slugging and therefore no real opportunity for breadth of skill across the mmr numbers…
As someone who SWFs regularly and can barely stay alive, while on killer I regularly face 4k+ hour survivors …. Sometimes get good really is the answer - but with mmr being a dumpster fire, that can be overly harsh.
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There's certainly a possibility of that.
Killers who heavily rely on those strategies have boosted their MMR above their actual skill level. Many of these players say things like "you have to tunnel to win" and "gens fly", and many times the reason for that is because the survivors they face are more efficient than they are. It's just that the killer has massively powerful tools available that tip the scale.
So yes, those players will lose games for a while as their MMR actually balances it to closer to their skill level, when and if those overpowered tools are toned down. Then, once they're playing against opponents closer to their actual skill level, they should be able to maintain the 60% again.
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your saying killers that rely heavily on tunneling have artificially raised MMR to ranks where they don't belong but that makes no sense from my experience. I got my MMR to the ranks that I'm constantly getting swf and I didn't tunnel at all. After repeatedly losing to swf teams I started tunneling. Now your saying I shouldn't be on that MMR bracket and that this MMR bracket shouldn't need tunneling to win. Both of which are incorrect. If I didn't tunnel when I did I would be dropped in MMR bracket. So that says tunneling is needed to beat swf.
-13 -
Regarding gen-splitting, since killers often complain about this. How about changing the individual generator repair time to 120 seconds (120 charges), and remove the teamwork debuff instead. This would also serve as an indirect nerf to BNP's, considering they take away 10 charges.
That way, gen-splitting would become less effective, and teamwork would be more necessary to complete generators faster.
However, with a change like this in place, generators would need to be spread much further apart, to prevent excessive 3-genning by killer players.-6 -
Ok, so my main point is that killers have tools that are easy for them to execute and are difficult for survivors to counter. That applies mainly to camping, tunneling, and slugging in this conversation. But since we're talking about boosting MMR, it also applies to metas (gen kick, 3 gen meta), or even bugs or unbalanced effects (merciless storm, or giga thrill).
Here's the thing, and you say it yourself:
After repeatedly losing to swf teams I started tunneling.
Even setting aside this assumption that the "evil SWF" is suddenly in every game, I need to point out:
You are literally saying you switched tactics because you wanted to win more
Winning became more important than having a fun game. Instead of accepting that more casual gameplay and the occasional loss that comes with that, you decided to sweat because winning became the most important thing.
Now your saying I shouldn't be on that MMR bracket and that this MMR bracket shouldn't need tunneling to win.
I'm saying that there is no universe where complaining that you have to tunnel is valid. There are only two options here:
If you don't want to play casually (ie, not competitively), then you can accept losing the occasional game. You can play however you want, accept the occasional loss, and kill about 60% of the survivors you face. This won't inflate your MMR either.
However, if you want to play competitively, then there's no valid reason to complain about your opponent also playing competitively. This is basically just saying that "I want to try as hard as possible to win, but it's not fair that my opponent is also trying". By the way, playing this way will also result in you killing about 60% of the survivors you face.
If I didn't tunnel when I did I would be dropped in MMR bracket.
Yes, that's what "boosting your MMR" means.
So that says tunneling is needed to beat swf.
No.
This is the wrong conclusion for a couple reasons. First is that being in a SWF doesn't mean they're automatically better players. There are casual SWF groups, and there are hyper competitive solo q players. Just because you have a hard game, does not mean they are SWF.
It's an even harder pill for most people to swallow: you aren't the best player in the entire game. There are players, SWF or not, who are simply better at the game than you are.
Struggling does not mean you're at the maximum the game has to offer, it means you're at the maximum you can handle as a player. You've hit the cap of where you can perform without significant improvement, and that's ok. Some people struggle and claim they're "Max MMR" and complain about not understanding literal fundamentals of the game.
You are beating SWF at your skill level, and likely steamrolling them so you don't even consider it.
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Like if you want to remove slugging , not that i play that way because i dont play suitable classes for it except perhaps twins. You have to remove the second chance perks for survivors. Remove the punishment for hooking people , decisive strikes, unbreakable etc.
-4 -
What?!? Did someone actually complain about survivors splitting up on gens?
I would like to complain about how the killer is faster than survivors, and how the survivors I face only need to do five gens. Wouldn't, like... 15 gens be a better skill expression?
Edit: except Nurse. Nurse has a good speed ;)
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Firstly I didn't tunnel because I wanted to win more, I tunneled so I could win as I definitely wasn't hitting 60% kill rate, it was more like 10%. No game was winnable for a long time until I tunneled. Casual or comp swf made no difference, the coms give the teams an edge that no solo player gets so it makes sense they are in higher MMR but that's not a reflection of skill that's using things outside the game (coms) to have a major edge over the killer and inflate their mmr. If these swf teams went solo they wouldnt win anywhere near as much so by your logic they shouldn't be in the higher MMR bracket because they can't beat killers in the same bracket solo.
You also say winning became more important than fun, which again is incorrect. Losing the amount I was without tunneling wasn't fun. I tunneled and started winning, that was fun. But you suggest it's a choice of winning or having which isn't the case.
Fact is tunneling isnt fool proof, swf can and have countered it. So by your own argument of raising MMR to a skill level they shouldn't be at, if survivors can't counter tunneling then they shouldn't be in that bracket they have used swf and coms to be in a bracket they can't handle without being in a team. You can't use that argument of using a tactic like tunneling to raise MMR and not apply it to swf teams that can't hack it without coms.
-7 -
Why is it that killers are the only ones who have rules for how they have to play but when killers talk about gen rushing and other things that are a problem, there is almost never any action taken? Im sure you are aware of the constant conversations around SWFs and how much they break the game, but patch after patch we dont ever see them get weaker, in fact its just the opposite. SWFs get even stronger perks to abuse over time.
-6 -
I certainly can appreciate the sentiment and thought. I feel a lot of it is just that a lot of balance changes over the past couple of years has just really, really made the weaker m1 killers with no map traversal just feel absolutely awful to play. It just feels a lot of balance changes (whether killer nerfs or survivor buffs) is due to deal with some balance issues with specific killers (which frankly do exist), but ends up just making the weaker killers more unbearable to play. The end result is more people are discouraged from playing the weaker killers and are encouraged to play the stronger ones (ie blight). It just feels like the weaker m1 killers get caught in the crossfire.
For an older example, the weaker m1 killers with no chase potential suffered for months while MFT reigned supreme. The most recent chapter announcement once again will have survivors who can just flee at crazy speeds against killers who are struggling to even get downs in a straight up chase with loops - with a bodyblocker, it's even more difficult, and now with +25% runspeed to all nearby survivors, why even bother chasing anyone, at all? That's enough space made to make it to the complete opposite ends of some maps. M1 killers won't stand a chance. If feels like it's all in the name of survivors having more survivability against the stronger killers with dashes, but the fact is - a LOT of killers don't have these movement abilities. Every time balance changes comes out, it somehow always makes M1 killers without mobility even worse than they already are.
Heck, even the 8 regression limit hit them - especially ones who don't 3 gen camp. How? No mobility killers can't afford to go on a road trip to patrol the gens on the outer edges of the map. That's too much time with no pressure. Survivors also know this, so the optimal strategy is simply don't work on the outer gens - save them for last. Instead, focus on knocking out the center gens. What's that mean? The outer gens can't be patrolled due to no mobility, and even if they could, survivors aren't touching them, anyway. The survivors all stay in the center focusing on slamming out those central gens. That means the killer literally has nowhere to be on the map BUT the middle since that's where the survivors are and that's the only gens they can afford to travel to. That means those gens will absolutely get wrecked on the 8 regression limit very fast - especially if the killer dares to bring surge, or even worst, eruption which only allows for 4 regression hits. What killers don't have to worry about this, at ALL? That's right, the mobility killers - because they CAN get to the outer gens quickly, so they don't risk losing much pressure. Since they can travel so fast to center gens, survivors naturally gravitate to any gen they can do - even outer ones. Once again, another balance change that absolutely makes m1 killers even worst all in the name of dealing with problematic killers who could 3 gen camp very efficiently.
So while I understand the whole, "Let's give it a go and see what happens!", almost every time, it's the m1 killers with no mobility who suffers.
I'm not saying give ALL killers mobility - frankly, I'd prefer the opposite and start having more killers like trapper\ghostie\myers and such but bringing them up in potential…just something other than constant dash-related killers. If we keep getting more and more dash killers, then the majority of the balance will be trying to keep dash killers in line by blanket nerfs across killers which…once again…will negatively affect the m1 killers with no mobility. If that's too much to ask for, then how about giving those older m1 killers some way to traverse better so they aren't stuck in the center of the map? How about giving ghostie an innate movement speed buff when he's stealthed and not in line of sight of any survivors (so it's ONLY useable when not in chase and when not being watched). It's not a dash, but it'd at least let him get around the map more without being chained to the center.
Thank you for coming to my Ded Talk.
-4 -
Exactly this. Swf use coms (which isn't part of the game or solo would have it too). The use of coms in particular can mean the match is over before it's began for stealth killers as survivors use coms as a sort of aura reading so everyone knows where the killer is. This is without the synergy of perks that can be strong in solo but very op with swf.
Killers get buffs to deal with swf and soloq suffer. Killers get nerfed so solo can deal with killers and swf get stronger. Works same with survivor buffs and nerfs. If swf is the baseline for survivor then make solo the same, give coms and full aura reading then buff the killers to be able to handle that without tunneling. If solo is baseline then swf needs to be weakened to bring it in line with solo. Clearly can't really monitor the coms but they can monitor the fact they are party together so that could be used somehow to apply a nerf? i don't know what can be done but swf with coms and perk synergy is crazy, they can be useless skill wise but still use these advantages to get a win but killer gets the "don't tunnel" treatment.
-5 -
I am not doing a gen for 120 seconds. Considering gen regression perks take % of the gen progress I would be done as survivior - never queue up again. We can't do that. Gens already take 90 seconds, that's a lot. It used to be 70 sec.
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Splitting gens is kinda forced due to gen regression perks, and even then only really effective against low mobility killers. But granted, somewhat of an issue(altho there are basekit counters to it, otherwise low mobility killers wouldnt have killrates above 2.5 on average).
Saboing is not something you can rely on much and requires quite a few perks and specific addons to happen more than once a game succesfully. Slugging and tunnelling does not require any of that.
I would be 10000x more okay with tunnelling and slugging if it actively relied on perks to be consistently viable, but its not. It's basekit.
Anti-camp isnt strong, anti-tunnelling isnt strong, anti-slugging isnt strong, otherwise camping, tunnelling and slugging wouldnt be an issue, now would it?
And hooking is more viable than ever in DBD history, wdym? The issue is that people like you just hook willy-nilly on the closest hook whenever you hook. Go take strategic hooks, go that extra 5 second time investment so survivors are forced to hooktrade or end up multiple people injured.
"all of these strats are meta cus average player doesnt learn counterplay"
Except the same can be true of anti-camp(which only works if you camp), anti-tunnel(which only works if you tunnel) and anti-slug(which only works if you slug). Not even talking about how if tunnelling is not viable unless as a last resort, anti-tunnel perks will also be basically non-existant in use. Right now they are top 10 because of how viable tunnelling is as a normal strat3 -
Why is it that killers are the only ones who have rules for how they have to play but when killers talk about gen rushing and other things that are a problem, there is almost never any action taken?Infinities, auto completing generators with BMPs, FTP+Buckle Up, and even more recent things like adding hooks to counter survivors trying to make themselves unhookable.
We're even getting survivors starting in tighter groups to slow down on the early game rush.
It's simply not true that killer's don't have rules about how survivors should play, its just most of the really abusive stuff (Infinites) was already addressed.
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I took a 3 month break from the game and came back few weeks back. I don't really play killer in the new bloodmoon event because i dont hate myself enough to do that, but i've also noticed that generators go pretty fast in normal mode.
I don't play with 4 gen defenses so maybe its my fault, but i just find it boring. I normally have 1-2 gen defense and 1 chase and 1 aura or 2 aura perks. I just simply can't keep up with game speed anymore.
Sadly if survivors are even semi decent in this game playing for 12 hooks is not possible anymore. You can do that against survivors that arent good at looping and are lost in the sauce sure but good or decent survivors will destroy you.
I'm not sure how they will balance this.
Also i try to play as fair as possible in my games. Sadly survivors tend to tunnel themselfs by bodyblocking me when im trying to go after someone who unhooked.
-4 -
Managing gen speeds isn't just about perks in the modern state of the game, a lot of it comes from having good fundamentals and being able to spread pressure effectively.
One of the things I notice a lot of killers struggle with is downtime between chases, IE, a lot of time spent either looking for a survivor or trying to kick gens or something. Maybe that's something you could look at?
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I don't kick gens. Don't have time for that. Mostly i get destroyed by survivors being really good at looping.
-2 -
Hate my comment if you want, but yes, I have seen it mentioned several times on these forums.
Common complaints are the following as of late:- Gen-splitting (Killer-players)
- Tunneling (Survivor players)
- Slugging (Survivors)
- Humping (Survivors)
- Kaneki (Obviously survivors)
- Matchmaking (Both sides)
- SWF (Killers)
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Ah, gotcha. Well, at least you have a good idea of what you need to improve there!
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Initially, generators took only 65 seconds.
And killers could not regress them in any way.0 -
May I remind you that a chase between a competitive killer and survivor of a similar level usually exceeds two minutes? It's easy to say that killers lacks skill because people who are clearly the top players of this game destroy in public matches. We always take the best among the killers for example, usually streamers and competitive players, but then for the survivors we choose the worst.
The reality is that the final killrate is the desired one, which means that the vast majority of players barely win their games and they do so by resorting to all these tactics that are intended to be eliminated. To deny the impact this would have on the balance sheet is to deny a reality.
-4 -
I feel like the easiest thing to contest there would be… do the vast majority of players resort to these tactics? That's kind of an unsourced claim here, it can't be treated as an objective fact.
After that, I also want to contest the idea that these tactics are intended to be eliminated. We don't know what the changes are yet, and we do know that BHVR tends to be fairly moderate with basekit adjustments like this, usually aiming to weaken or alleviate instead of outright remove.
Personally, I imagine that properly successful anti-tunnel and some appropriate levels of anti-slug would lead to a short-term, minor drop in kill rates that corrects itself once people adjust. Sometimes you'll lose a match that tunnelling could've saved, hypothetically, but that doesn't actually mean something's wrong.
5 -
Sadly if survivors are even semi decent in this game playing for 12 hooks is not possible anymore. You can do that against survivors that arent good at looping and are lost in the sauce sure but good or decent survivors will destroy you.I'm not sure how they will balance this.This comes up every time tunneling is discussed. There's is a huge difference between trying to 12 hook and tunneling out the first survivor on the first three hooks.
It's an elimination game. 12 hooking should be incredibly difficult, while tunneling out a survivor on the first 3 hooks creates a very unfun game. There's a lot of ground in between that BHVR can shoot for.
8 -
Saboing is not something you can rely on much and requires quite a few perks and specific addons to happen more than once a game successfully.
And once a game is, already, game changing. If someone gets away without being hooked after being chased and downed – if the game is balanced around 12 hooks, making it 13 is a win. It's also like a sneaky DS if someone wouldn't have been on a gen anyway: time is the only resource a Killer has. Another extra chase is massive.
A single extra sabo tends to bring out slugging (or tunnelling if it's one Survivor) ASAP because it's too much of a throw to engage with hooking when you're going to fail. Ditto for dedicated breakout. The best thing to do is turn altruism against Survs then and just bleed someone out.
And hooking is more viable than ever in DBD history, wdym? The issue is that people like you just hook willy-nilly on the closest hook whenever you hook. Go take strategic hooks, go that extra 5 second time investment so survivors are forced to hooktrade or end up multiple people injured.
Have you looked at default hook spread any time recently…? In a lot of maps, you don't have multiple hooks to go for if you don't want someone to have a good chance of wiggling free (see above for that being a game changer).
The thing that makes hooking not viable is… unless you're getting someone out, it doesn't get a Killer a lot. Progressing the win condition doesn't make it easier to win. It makes it harder.
Think about that one. You have a pickup animation, walking to the hook, a hook animation – time not spent putting pressure on other survivors. If that's not a kill, you're almost wasting time unless you have hook perks that recoup that time investment and more. Or unless you've got a way to make the hooking itself get time back… basement builds, proxy camping, etc. And that's not even counting that the actual hooking of someone is the most vulnerable you can be to time wastes: body blocking, breakout, sabo, flashlight saves, flashbangs, etc.
The altruism when people go for those plays also throws matches, when done to excess, but this kind of highlights the problem here: hooking is only the good choice when other people are being dumb. Otherwise, it's a time sink once you take eliminating a player out of the equation.
And hooking going wrong? Well, there's the time problem again.
(Mind, my favourite way to play is currently fire up + forever entwined + brutal + bamboozle/enduring because 'do things fast' is fun with a mobility Killer, but that doesn't mean I can't see the problems when I'm not)
-6 -
Those timesinks you talk about - the pickup, the walk to a hook, the hook animation - are spent setting up your pressure, is the crucial thing missing from your rundown.
When you have a survivor on the hook, you can start getting the ball rolling properly. Assuming you know where to go for a chase (which you should, either through base tracking or perks- downtime spent searching for survivors is a critical mistake often made), you can reliably set up a situation where, for a brief moment, gen repair is slowed by 75%.
The survivor on hook can't do gens, obviously. The survivor you're chasing can't do gens either, also obviously. The important part is that someone else has to come off to save the survivor on the hook, and they can't do gens either. The travel time to the hook, unhook animation, possibly a heal, and then travel time back to their gen adds up.
This is the gold standard for killer while everyone's alive, it's the best situation you can be in without some extra objective occupying the fourth survivor. Get the down before the save happens and you're doing even better, though that part can be unreliable.
Hooking very much 100% gives you something even if it isn't eliminating a survivor. It sets up the macro game for killer, it's vitally important to good killer play in general. Obviously sometimes you'd deviate from it, sometimes slugging is better, but by default you're aiming to maximise pressure from hooks.
4 -
The balance problem is: you also get basically all of that for slugging someone. And that's why hooking loses out on pure time efficiency.
Which is what gives us the current headache; not hooking too easily slides into being better than hooking, and when hooking is good it also leads to less-fun outcomes.
0 -
You get similar rewards, but they're lesser.
There's less positional advantage and there's much less time pressure to go save when you're slugging someone, hooks provide better rewards on that front.
Slugging is also much, much more vulnerable to coordinated play and counterpick perks. Just the single perk Unbreakable changes slugging from "moderately less rewards in exchange for more time efficiency" to "absolutely zero reward and a pure timesink".
Hooks are also much faster to eliminate someone with. Three hooks and you're dead, realistically on most survivors in most games that's three chases. Slugging takes four accumulated minutes, and there's a lot of variation on how many chases that'll be. Even looking at uninterrupted timers, slugging takes almost twice as long.
The current headache is actually that slugging provides uneven rewards. Against uncoordinated solo queue players it looks like hooking is an obsolete relic of the past. Against more coordinated and especially more prepared groups, it's a situational tool that couldn't ever hope to replace hooking.
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