http://dbd.game/killswitch
Lobby stacking with S tiers needs to be addressed
Why on earth do I, who just solo's or duo's, have to play against comp wannabe's sweating their balls off on a p100 Blight or Nurse with run 4 slowdowns who camps or tunnels at 5 gens? It's absolutely infuriating playing a match out that's literally doomed to be an L from the get go.
I'm so sick to death of being forced to play out matches against these type of players. Like, if matchmaking actually worked they way you think it would, then these guys should be facing seal team six swfs with the same mindset and builds constantly, but that never happens. It's just players like me getting caught in between serving no purpose, but giving these guys a completely free W. These matches are completely pointless and a waste of everyone's time because there's no way even the killer has fun dunking on players way less coordinated, sweaty, or skilled.
I don't know what the solution is, but I think it can start by heavily nerfing S tiers because I think they're very unhealthy for game balance and it's impossible to fully balance the game out when they coexist with killers like Trapper or Pig. Alternatively, improve matchmaking to where casual players don't get forced into these auto losses, I don't care how long these killers have to wait for a match, if they want to come into a match to pubstomp, then they absolutely deserve to wait to face a team with the exact same mindset as them.
Comments
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i dont understand this camp and tunnel at 5 gens thing how do you go down vs anyone but nurse before 1 gen gets done you literally have every resource available can you not stay alive by just running main building or pre dropping safe pallets for at minimum 40 seconds
-26 -
Actually, those killers will always match against highest possible team game can offer, just play less sweaty and you'll actually match with some fun killer
Speaking from my experience
-21 -
I tried to play with a friend a few days ago and we got Blight, Blight, Ghoul, Spirit, Ghoul, Ghoul, Hillbilly all one after another. All of them had at least three slowdown perks and half of them tunneled/camped. It was just one beat down after another and we eventually just gave up when we realized it wasn't going to stop. Granted this was late at night when not many are on and the only people playing are typically degenerates with 7000 hours. Doesn't change the fact that it's a terrible experience.
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There's theoretical survivor gameplay where you're always next next to a chain of safe tiles and have perfect knowledge of the killer's position, and there's the actual realistic survivor gameplay where RNG exists, dead zones exist, and you're not able to perfectly pre-run.
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like even if your brain dies, with the shift w key hold down, killer will need 30 seconds to knock you down, if you fall faster then that's a huge skill problem
-17 -
Because when they tested fully accurate MMR, the best players just spent most of their time playing queuing simulator instead. Which is pretty bad, because you don't just punish the sweaty players that way, you also just coincidentally get the ones who're very good, and very dedicated.
So, BHVR relaxed it to make sure that the game didn't get into the super awkward situation of "the people most invested in our game can't play our game".
4 -
4 slowdowns on nurse?
Wacky build thats for sure.
Tunneling and camping I have definetely seen from several of them. Which is so sad given how fast you get downs.
Skill issues on those killers I am afraid.
I completely agree on nerfing HARD nurse though.
Bookmark = bye bye
Blink cooldown = add a couple more seconds
Blink range = make braclet -20% her new default range.
Wont happen though. Bookmark shouldnt exist, if you need 3 blinks honestly you may as well load up cheats at that point.5 -
what dead zones it’s the first chase aand dont lie to me you def use windows of opportunity if you still chose to run to a corner of the map with 1 unsafe pallet that's on you
and while yes rng exists it's not the thing preventing you from lasting more then 30 seconds in your first chase
-14 -
I think its the backfill system, if a killer dodges you get filled with sweatlord comp dbd player mcgee who has been waiting in queue for an hour ( I exaggerate)
Something they direly need to fix is the pre match lobby is incredibly dated.8 -
I miss a time when online gaming was less toxic. There used to be large online competitive gaming communities where players would form their own lobbies and self-select who joined matches based on reputation.
Players who demonstrated they belonged in another skill-tier would be asked to join other lobbies, and booted if they refused. And while that sounds negative, it worked great. Players self-selected into something like nine skill tiers and refused to play with people who were overtly toxic. That led to more friendly gaming than we have in a lot of modern games where matchmaking is done for the players. And we practically never saw dramatic skill-mismatches.
I don't think that would work today though. People don't act like adults... even though we acted better when I was barely able to play games as a kid… Anyway, enough reminiscing... yes, backfilling with the wrong MMR is a problem :/
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that still exists, but dbd community is well known for hating that kind of players even with the sheer fact they scrim and play tournaments in custom lobbies away from other players. This is done mostly because matchmaking in dbd doesn't offer you real chance to improve and get matched with people of similar skill.
And despite all of that, big part of "casual" community still hates those players. Why? I know but i'll leave you to think about why.
-1 -
Really? That's a real question: Can players in DbD can self-select into lobbies en-masse where we sort ourselves into skill tiers and choose based on who the known players are in our skill level so we can play appropriately matched games and avoid playing with people who do things we consider toxic? I don't think that exists for DbD. Maybe some players on the Discord do it?
I used to host lobbies in another game with the rules both sides agreed to listed in the lobby description. In DbD, I think we'd see lobbies saying "No bully squads, no tunneling at 4 or 5 gens, etc." And players would probably hit an equilibrium of match conditions that killers and survivors would accept, with different lobbies for different kinda of players. But maybe that wouldn't work in our community at all. Who knows?
Either way, I don't think that exists for any online gaming community I know about today. I used to play League, and you got matched into nonsense where someone was sure to get told to uninstall the game, potentially by their own teammates.
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Backfilling is absolutely a big problem with the current matchmaking system. It really don't work based on the average lobby MMR, but instead prioritizes speed over quality.
This is the reason why you sometimes get into lobbies that are heavily skewed towards one side or the other. And it is especially true if you have been sitting in a long queue.9 -
The solution is functioning matchmaking. Every match I’m in on either killer or survivor side is a completely random mix of brand new players, god-like 8,000 hour players, and everything in between. We are told that the game has a SBMM system, but we all know based on experience in the game that it is completely non—functional.
I don’t know if it’s due to broken game code or if it’s more of an issue of not enough players in the game to have a large pool of players across all skill levels.8 -
Thats… bad game sense then. The entire time you're routing and/or working on an objective you should always be taking a mental inventory of the tiles you encounter, or at least the general map layout. If you find yourself in a dead zone early in the match, you damn well better figure out which way to run the moment you hear the TR. Granted you can have a respectable moderate chase and have nobody touch a single gen the whole time, but thats a different issue entirely.
-7 -
This is all just willful ignorance.
Not hard to understand how any decent killer running Lethal Pursuer can force a survivor to misplay, effectively winning in the first 30 seconds. There is more than one way to play the game and, regardless of what you believe the optimal strategy is, survivors will never agree on the "right way to play."
A strong counterpoint can be made against all three of your "objectively correct ways to play" which goes to show just how many opportunities there are for something to go wrong for Survivors.
…not to mention what a rediculous statement @TwinsMain2004 made with "i don't understand this camp and tunnel at 5 gens thing…" You either have all of 5 hours in Dead by Daylight or you're oblivious to objective reality. Regardless of how it happens, Survivors frequently find themselves camped and tunneled at 5 gens and no amount of "get good" or practical advice has managed to change that in the past 8 years.5 -
Its not willful ignorance, its learning from mistakes. I've been caught out early tons of times. I know its not always your fault, but I also know the vast majority of the time, it is. Thats what building game sense is, taking your experiences and knowledge of the game to predict what is happening outside your purview, as well as what is going to happen based on what you have and are witnessing. The game starts as survivor by panning the camera before the killer even gets into first person, let alone gains control. You get a chance to survey the area before the killer gets to start pursuing you with LP (assuming they even have it.) If your legitimate concern is that they will have LP and head straight for you specifically, you should be using that opening camera pan to identify tiles and begin routing. Like I said, there will be times where circumstances will deal you an impossibly bad hand, but the vast majority of the time there will be at least one avenue for you to identify and utilize.
Also, I don't remember where I said that I had an "objectively correct way to play," just that the post I was responding to was listing common excuses that are made instead of actually improving to mitigate those factors almost entirely. The intention was to reflect "maybe there were things I could have done" and not as an attack. If you (not even the person I was talking to) were offended by that, it wasn't my intention.
Lastly, their point was more that at least 1 gen should be finished before anyone can be camped and tunneled. As long as people are actually doing gens and the person being chased is able to run a modest length of time, at least 1 gen should have popped. If you need to find out whether it was the person in chase or the rest, using a stopwatch can help determine which part of the team didn't pull their own weight to that point.
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Not true. I play solo queue exclusively on survivor and escape maybe 20% of the time. I still routinely get p100 Nurses and Blights and Spirits
9 -
The game shouldn't be giving you those killers if you're as casual as I'm suspecting, but if you're going in expecting to win, except the killers to play to win as well. Simple as.
You even understand the solution, for the matchmaking system to actually put people of like-hour'd, like-experienced players together. There's not need to nerf killers until that happens. And these matches aren't doomed from the start. Maybe you personally are not equipped to deal with those killers, but the game is kind of about overcoming obstacles. You CAN physically do stuff to prevent you loss, like doing gens and playing safe. Most do neither of those things, and then complain.
You're not doing your argument favors by wanting the killers to be punished for "pubstomping." They're just playing to win, not to cause misery for no good reason. That's the mischaracterization of killers I see constantly on here, because in reality they're as much a victim of the bad matchmaking system as you. Yes, people can wait a minute in queue for more accurate matchmaking, but that's to both sides' benefit, not just 1.
-3 -
When your standard chase does cause the killer to lose 2-3 gens, sure, both low and high level will look the same. But survivor definitely doesn't look the same at high and low levels. They're actually looping at high level, and can run the killer for like 5 gens, hence why the killers have to RETREAT from them.
MMR does exist, it's just very bad, because like you said quick queues become the priority, rather than similarly experienced opponents being put against each other.
I don't get what you mean with #2 though. If the game is killer sided, fixing MMR would bring it to light, through the matches. If the game is survivor sided, the fix would bring it to light, through the matches. How people play has nothing to do with it at that point, because you'd have it separated generally into high, low, and mid level, where both sides played about as well as each other. Things like tunneling are only really effective against low and mid level players, and at that level the killers won't be playing well enough to use those strategies effectively anyway, and any luck they have using them would be due to the survivors not playing well. I'm just trying to explain how nothing the killer has will be a smashing success across the board by its own nature. For example, you could rebuff Engineer's Fang on Pinhead right now, and it would make zero difference to the people playing him at low level, because they'd barely be able to land the possessed chains. A buff to killer made for high level balance won't suddenly make them really oppressive at low level, because the killers there aren't playing their best either, which they'd need to in order to even take advantage of what they've got.
And if it's the DCs that are the problem, the DCers need to be put in their own queue or face sizeable penalties. But let's be certain: the DCs are out of entitlement, not out of some righteous effort to demonstrate how strong killer is. It's just petty, and it sabotages entire teams of survivors, sometimes on matches that they were set to win.
-1 -
But the game does in fact mismatch players. Constantly. A lot of people don't like to accept that because recognizing that might lead to admitting that they themselves often win because of their opponents simply weren't that good. But no one is exempt from the benefits (and downfalls) of DBD's loose SBMM.
"I have to play like this to win at my MMR" is a total myth.
And while I don't think a killer matched against mid survivors shouldn't try to win, I don't think it's unreasonable to dial it back when you realize you're up against potatoes. I do it all the time. Like if your first chase takes like 15-20 seconds and there aren't any gens done by the time you've gotten multiple hooks, you might just be able to turn down the effort a tad, out of some degree consideration for the poor souls you got matched against.
Winning isn't so vital that anyone needs to keep the hammer down at all times, especially when you know for a stone cold fact that we're not getting matchmaking that is accurate even half the time.
As for the "solution", it's not coming. Because balancing things to a point where the MMR criteria itself means anything, much less SBMM as a whole, the following would need to happen (at a minimum):
- Standardize/balance the maps (lol)
- Standardize killer power by nerfing high tier killers and buffing low tier killers so all of them are roughly as viable as the others (again, lol)
- Create a system that assigns MMR rating based on a suite of factors and not just kills and escapes, which BHVR has shown no inclination to do
Those would get us a good part of the way there, but those things aren't going to happen, save maybe #3. And even if they all did, would it really even be DBD anymore? At this point, imbalance is as much a part of the game's identity as the horror theme. I can't think of a PvP game where "winning" says less about a player and their skill.
I think the best thing would be for some people to stop taking the game so seriously, because it's very much not a serious game.
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I may not always agree with you but this one is a big one that I do. When I first started playing there were perks to help find survivors or objectives but they are nothing like what is available today. We had to learn to pay attention to what was around and in many cases I wouldn't even start an objective without doing a quick run around of a small area.
I learned a lot of this from watching some of the older streamers scout ground as survivor or learn to predict survivor spawns and use whispers. The game can seem too fast sometimes and I understand some situations are just bad situations. It's just how the game is.
I do think that more in depth tutorials could possibly help with some of this but I also don't see many content creators actively teaching this like they use too. People just watch them, not realizing how good they actually are with game sense, and then wonder why they aren't playing on their level.
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I know for a fact sometimes I just get total lobby mismatches, and it's worse when the lobby is slow to match. I had two Dredge games recently with very new Survs who didn't even know to lock lockers, and then got sweat city for my Pig, Oni, and Drac matches the same day due to lobby mismatch. THEN once 3-4 PM rolled around? Normal Dracula matches.
It's very odd.3 -
I would say that out of every 10 matches I play (in either role), conservatively 3-4 of the matches will have matchmaking that is total dogwater. At certain times of day it's far worse, and pretty much the only time I feel like most of the matches are pretty well (relatively) matched are Fri/Sat evenings when volume is high.
And if people drop out of the lobby and are backfilled, you can count on the match being a total SBMM mess.
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What mental gymnastics are these? The killer can force a survivor to misplay? With that mentality, no wonder you consider killer OP.
And we really don't understand the tunnel/camp at 5 gens thing, because that's at such a lower level than what we're used to, we can't even conceive it. You have to understand, our survivors literally never allow that. Not even close. So the survivor who ALL go down that quick, I don't have words of advice for them, because it's not even like they're just noobs. It's like they have negative gameplay, negative experience, like they do the worst things they can possibly do, or they're doing literally nothing. And I get those teammates sometimes as survivor. Like, "Why is it when I get hooked, all 3 of you are just crouched or walking around?" And they do that. All match long. Obviously one and the same as those who get 4-man/5-gen'd.
-6 -
How do you have 10k comments on this forum and you can't a) comprehend another player's perspective and b) take a minute to scroll through my post history before making blanket statements like "no wonder you consider killer OP?" …or better yet, not draw such unfounded conclusions?
L-take from you, sadly.2 -
No, I don't think it is an L take. Nothing wrong with my comprehension either, and your history is none of my concern. You had responded to 3 people who were informing others of ways to not get downed in 30 seconds. And what you said didn't disprove what they said, just gave an extreme scenario. What you're saying the killer can do in any given match lines up exactly with the opinions of people who call them OP. "The killer can simply slap on Lethal Pursuer and just take everyone out in 30 seconds." Really? Because I've never pulled that off. Have you? Of course not, because the best killer players in the world couldn't do that.
I see what you mean about survivors having things go wrong, but they can recover from that. Oftentimes they have to make several such blunders to come close to losing. And I see what you mean about them not taking the advice that's been given these past few years, but that doesn't excuse how they play, and it certainly doesn't prompt a correction in killer strength. Like, how is any of that the killer's fault? And if you're not saying that, then what are you saying?
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You don't need to be a P100 Blight or Nurse to camp or tunnel at 5 gens. A P0 Bubba would do a better job at that.
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I appreciate you saying that. Its always encouraging to see when people who disagree on some things about the game can put that aside and agree on others. Makes it feel less like you're screaming into the void sometimes.
Combination of backfill, expanding matchmaking brackets over the wait duration, and swfs with uneven skill are probably the biggest things that cause SBMM to not work correctly. The first two especially have both a large impact, and increase in likelihood the longer your queue time. Its the bane of playing outside of peak hours, honestly.
camping and tunneling at 5 gens are absolutely a thing, but they are caused by a massive fail on the survivor side. The issue is with shared agency: You can glue yourself to a gen that you spawn right next to and still not have enough time to finish it before the first person goes down if they are particularly poor in chase, get caught off guard by an instadown, or anything of the sort. That would be a fail on the person being chased, which the rest of the team suffers for. Alternatively, they could run the killer for 5 minutes straight without a single gen popping, which would be a fail on the other 3 survivors that the person who was chased suffers for. Its a situation that can (and does) happen, but part of improving as a player (especially survivor) is learning how to be both efficient and mitigate the damage caused by others. Its obviously a much bigger issue at more casual/lower MMR levels, but it can even happen to good players as well.
The long and short is that it happens… not because woe is the survivor role, but because it's caused by at least one person on the team sinking and dragging the rest with them.
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Yeah no.
First of all, the killer has no idea what they are queueing into. They dont know if your Solo or a sweaty SWF, or a bully squad.
Secondly if survivor is allowed to bring whatever they want then so should killers. There is NO rulebook, you are not entitled to anything other than the bear minimum, a match to play. The killer you face, and builds they bring and the way they play are not your decision, this is not a bot lobby where you can customize things exactly the way you want them.4 -
Oftentimes they have to make several such blunders to come close to losing
The problem is, blunders are things we recognize in hindsight with the luxury of information.
You talk about the game as if all participants have perfect information, and are failing to act on said information due to a lack of intelligence, experience, desire, etc. In reality, DBD is a game in which players have incomplete information, and are challenged with responding to rapidly changing scenarios in such a way that is a) beneficial to themselves/their team and is b) intrinsically satisfying/fulfilling to themselves…because that is the reason we play games in the first place (presumably).
As players improve in skill, they are (presumably) matched with others of equal skill—this is fundamentally untrue in DBD, but lets entertain it hypothetically—and are therefore more inclined to feel as if they have complete information about the game. This is understood through Nash equilibrium in which players cannot gain a more favorable outcome by changing their strategy.
HOWEVER, as a solo survivor it is impossible (even if each player uses the entirety of the 60s pregame lobby to share their playstyle & experience with their teammates) to act with complete information at any point in a trial.
We can excuse the (generally unimpressive) strategic response of survivors by understanding the information advantage that a single killer has over 4 uncoordinated and uniquely/indivually motivated teamates.
The same logic can be applied to understand how a single, partially-observable survivor can outplay a killer for 5 gens. …but this conversation does not call for me to defend the obsurdity of DBD's map design, so I won't1
