http://dbd.game/killswitch
The anti-slug mechanic I almost dream will be implemented
3 small changes that will not harm any killer in specific:
Change 1: survivors are able to recover while crawling
Change 2: crawling when not recovering is 100% faster(which, is only useful to do if the killer is right there or if you are done recovering, otherwise average distance remains the same)
Change 3: you can now pick yourself up for free at any UNFINISHED generator(of which, the aura of the nearest generator would be shown).
This doesnt really impact the effectiveness of slugging lategame, when slugging should be a viable strategy. It does MASSIVELY impact slugging when there are a lot of gens remaining.
It is the only healthy way I can see it work.
A singular basekit unbreakable? Doesnt really work against slugging Nurses and Blights, will heavily negatively impact a Trapper slugging with 1 gen remaining.
An anti-camp like feature while slugged? Depends too much on maps. Useless on Swamp, can be used against you on Game.
Any endurance basekit on pickup? Could be nice, but doesnt really solve any problems and can be used very offensively lategame.
Comments
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You are not very good at avoiding loopholes tho. Maybe its cuz I might be wrong but hear this one. Everytime you can, go down near a gen and comm to a teamate where you are gonna go down so that they use bp to guarantee the flashy save. You give the killer two options:
A: take the pick-up and get flashlight stunned, leading to a longer chase and repeat.
B: leave you on the ground and let you recover.
Both possibilities take away the possibility of the killer getting the hook.
Sometimes people do critizice bhvr but you really need to be very careful to create fool-proof mechanics in this game.
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Simple things:
1. The generator has to be unfinished, so the killer can just kick the gen, then chase someone else.
2. It still takes 32 seconds to recover first.
3. survivors need to be able to reach a gen like that, which will get harder and harder the more gens are gone
Simple solution:
Grant basekit lightborn while picking up in a region thats 6 meters range from a generator, where a survivor could pick themselves up 4 meters from a generator. Solved.
Counterpoint:
Survivors can do that now anyway. If they have no mither and go down out in the open, what is the counterplay there then? Both possibilities take away for the possibility of the killer getting the hook just as equally as the generator. And its easier to replicate with No Mither, especially considering the fact that survivors with No Mither can do it 9 times before bleeding out becomes a thing, 13 times with Unbreakable also there and 19 times with Exponential being active too. Where in the basekit time, its 7 times at most.
The thing is, this is the healthiest solution I can consider. Any other mechanic I can think off will not matter against high mobility killers and impact low mobility killers extremely negatively. There are some situations where it would be unfair, but those are niche situations compared to how not-niche slugging is right now. And countermeasures for the niche situation you're giving are much easier to implement than counter measures for other mechanics that could reduce early game slugging.-3 -
All things considered, no mither is fine because it has massive downside of being permanently broken.
Btw why is mass slug a problem again? Isn't knockout already reworked, and you now can abandon the game when killer decides not to hook?
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Change 1 - I suspect this is the direction we will actually get. People are talking about basekit unbreakable, but I think some form of increasing crawl speed/heal speed (Tenacity) is more likely.
Change 2 - I think 100% is too much. 50%, maybe, but I definitely could see 25%.
Change 3 - This is interesting. My initial reaction was, no, absolutely not, but I'm thinking it through.
This means if the killer slugs someone across the map, they can't pick themselves up. That's reasonable, otherwise survivors would always try and pull the killer away.
This weakens the ability of the killer to slug and protect a gen at the same time. I think that would be a good change.
It also means if the survivor crawls to a gen and the killer isn't pressuring the slug, there's a high chance there's a survivor on that gen who just picks them up. This means the change doesn't create a new type of benefit, which is good.
I kind of like it. I think there's no chance BHVR would actually do something like this, but it's a neat idea.
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It does remind me of an idea that I haven't seen in a while, that being slugged survivors should be able to do gens, but at a reduced rate.
In terms of what I think we'll get: faster crawl speed, and some level of basekit recovery while crawling.
Also maybe the ability of slugged survivors to 99 their heal progress so they can be one tapped for pick ups.
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Mass slug is a problem because it fully removes player agency. It will remain to be a problem as long as there is no basekit counter to it. And on top of that, extremely boring. 32 seconds of effectively not doing anything to recover is 1 thing, but it being as strong as a hook is a problem. Abandoning match was a patchjob solution, not the actual solution.
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At what point this is not going to hurt any killer in specific?
Of course it does, it nerfs slugging → it nerfs killer who needs to slug to get maximum value out of their power.Probably most the Oni, who can start slugging with his power quite early if survivors made a mistake and gave him early hit. This make it simply impossible at that point, because survivors will get picked up for free.
Even with 1/2 gens left, survivors are usually around them.
Also not being able to return and hook survivor, because they left would also be a big deal.
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I would simply make it something similar to anti3gen feature.
Either each survivor has limit how many times they can be slugged and not be picked up by a killer (they get picked up by teammate),
or it's like global limit, which gets reseted when kill picks up.
That's something killer can play around and prevent from happening while still using slugging. It should not be something outside of killer's control imo (other than not doing it at all).0 -
So are we going to remove hooks next because it removes player agency? Just make the entire game about hitting survivors until they finish gens and escape?
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I think I also was the first one who suggested doing gens while slugged but at a slower rate on Reddit, I think about 1.5 years ago. The problem I have there and why I stopped suggesting it, is the mobility basically makes that entirely useless. The only way that is a viable solution if you make genprogression 2x-3x faster while slugged, but that doesnt feel like a good solution. Balancing wise it could be, but it would feel weird to do gens faster when downed.
I do think being able to pick yourself up an unfinished gens has some issues to it, but those are adjustable and fixable with relatively minor effort. Where right now, I do not see a solution where making some perks basekit will help anything.0 -
I would kinda agree with you, if picking up adds a hookstate to survivors and basically is treated like a hook in every other scenario (including applying all basekit mechanics and perks), but also a genrepair increase for a limited amount of time since that would act as a punishment for not actually hooking.
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I dont see an issue, right now survivors would abandon in that case, causing the game to be a draw anyway. You kinda WANT survivors to be able to pick themselves up so they wont abandon.
And "usually around them" doesnt mean a thing, you still can afford to hook survivors instead. The only reason you wanna slug in a 1-2 gen scenario with survivors next to those gens is if the gens are almost finished. You dont wanna slug them if there isnt much progress on it.
And you can return and hook a survivor, you would just have a harder time finding them the longer you leave them be, as it should be.0 -
Hooks are completely fine as they are, it doesnt remove player agency as you can attempt to unhook at the cost of progress, it allows an early way out and is only 140 seconds at most. It has an anti-camp feature and basekit endurance on unhook.
Stop comparing them, its not the same. Hooks remove some player agency and in return gives some protection. Slugging does not.-2 -
be a draw anyway
couldn't care less about MMR and that works only if I manage to actually down whole team, which is unlikely at start.
Your idea works even if I let just 1 survivor slugged and try to use my power on other survivors.
You kinda WANT survivors to be able to pick themselves up so they wont abandon
No, I am fine if they leave. Couldn't care less about MMR. Definetly better than not being able to use my power.
And you can return and hook a survivor, you would just have a harder time finding them the longer you leave them be, as it should be.
Why it should be? You can either recover, or crawl. I expect to be able to return under 30 seconds +/- and stil easily find survivor.
With this change I can't even slug survivor to try gain additional hit on someone else and they are gone.You dont wanna slug them if there isnt much progress on it.
Usually it's valid to slug if there is survivor nearby you can chase immediately, because it's definetly woth to get at least injury before you go pick up. Doesn't matter how progressed the gen is.
Or when you have limited power you want to keep using like Plague, Oni, Myers.1 -
"I expect to be able to return under 30 seconds +/- and stil easily find survivor."
Then you have terrible expectations. You should expect to seek for 1 additional second for every 3 seconds you leave, because the radius they crawl away in gets significantly bigger, my suggested change would increase it for about 1 second for every 2 seconds you leave. If you want to still easily find a slugged survivor, grab Deerstalker.
"Definetly better than not being able to use my power."
Well, counterpoint, you can actively predict where slugged survivors will be going: to the nearest unfinished generator, of which you actively can see its aura. If you cannot down all survivors within 32 seconds and start hooking your first downed survivor, you kinda deserve survivors picking themselves up at an unfinished gen anyway. Because why should survivors 1 and 2 deal with boring gameplay just because you got lucky and found all survivors?
"Usually it's valid to slug if there is survivor nearby you can chase immediately, because it's definetly woth to get at least injury before you go pick up."
And you can still do this, the average injury tends to happen within 25 seconds after downing another survivor, that or a dropped pallet you can kick. Thats still a survivor unable to fully recover. Nothing changes there unless you dedicate more than 32 seconds to that 1 injury, in which case, you made a mistake by dedicating so much time to an injury instead of hooking. A mistake you could have prevented by hooking.-3 -
Really, after the Give up mechanic i don't see a problem with slugging anymore.
If you are on the ground and can't be picked up is more yours teammates fault than a problem of the game. Nerfing slugging even more will make the game much worse for killers with no reason.
If you hate slug so much, grab Unbrekable or boon exponential.
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Slugging doesn't seem to take into account strategies to eliminate the time survivors spend on gen and hook rescue. This only speeds up the time it takes for the survivor to be able to act again, and adds a new set of auxiliary wheels.
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If you cannot down all survivors within 32 seconds and start hooking your first downed survivor, you kinda deserve survivors picking themselves up at an unfinished gen anyway.
Blood fury by default has duration of 45 seconds, so it seems simply impossible to get maximum out of his power by default with your feature. "will not harm any killer in specific"
You are willing to massively nerf several of killers, just so you don't have to deal with "boring gameplay", so just don't act like it wouldn't be a big deal…0 -
You cant always abandon tho, if you go down and someone leaves, gone is the abandon button. It only comes when everyone is hooked/downed and the last person gets downed. It helps a TON, but it doesnt solve the balancing issue with slugging. Its more powerful than a hook for mobility killers, its a necessity for low mobility killers.
Perks arent solutions for balancing problems.0 -
It wont, because here's a simple solution:
go to the nearest gen where you slugged that survivor, TADAA, they are gonna be there.
And even then, you still have gained MASSIVE pressure regardless. Everyone is injured, blood is everywhere so survivors can effectively deal with Bloodfury the rest of the game. If they dont wanna try, they can just give up and not move0 -
Howdy, first post here ever... Here it goes.
I like the idea you have started with this, but I would still want to look at it a bit further... Being able to crawl faster isn't a good thing that allows players to scoot scoot to a pallet or something even if the killer is NOT slugging.
As for them having to get to a gen, I like the idea but what if instead we made it based off the killers BASE terror radius? (Perks don't affect this).
Lemme explain, if I get downed and my teammates are a bunch of apes who all try to jump the killer, I should not be able to pick myself up while the killer is trying to find an opening to pick me up.
But at the same time, I don't want to be laying on the ground while the killer goes on a field trip across the map to down my rando teammates who are doing gens or possibly healing or something else (bear traps, singularity cams, unknown husks, or totems, etc etc).
So make it normal crawling. Normal crawling speed, normal recovery (unless using perks). But if the killer walks far enough away where you are outside BASE terror radius of that killer, you can pick yourself up.
"But that means slower killers suffer",... I can hear y'all screaming at me already... No it doesn't. It allows you to have some room to move around flush out would be saviors and chase them far enough to make room/space to come back and go for a pick up.
But the survivor can crawl out of the killers terror radius... Yes, yes they can. But THAT is up to the killer to keep an eye on the downed player so that they make that choice. Keep the survivor within that radius and you can do what you need to, but get careless and you get punished for it.
If the survivor is crawling, they are opening themselves up to being picked up in a spot that may not be the best for their team to come in for the save or it may allow the killer to sink their head into a wall so they cannot get blinded. That falls on the survivors and the risk of trying to crawl to safety...
But if a killer is off in another realm, why the hell are you stuck on the floor for three minutes with no way to counter... If that's the case every game is slug to win.
This will also be incentive for survivors not to come charging a killer on a down to beat down and can instead lead to trying to lead them away, or more cat and mouse tactics making the struggle more fair on both sides.
But wait! How is this fair based on the killers BASE terror radius? Well consider it a ball and chain type scenario...
For killers with smaller base terror radius (stealth killers) you're ability to sneak around makes you dangerous if you plan on chasing after another survivor to slug, or make it a fake out to force people coming in for a save to hesitate.
Being able to pop up unannounced means that even though you have the smallest radius, you can hover just out of sight using the survivor as bait, and as soon as they stand up, you rush them again and down them. I feel by allowing them to get up even when you are close forces you to either pick up, or move on, period. If survivors are running in to distract you so their buddy can get up, you in theory should be getting hits and wasting survivors time from doing gens.
Obviously as we then move up to the killers with larger and larger base terror radius, the same thing applies. The fastest killers (Blight, Kaneki, Whesker, Billy, Legion) would have the largest terror radius, but this also makes things more cat and mouse. Crawling survivors are going to move more while others have to space out and try to get around the killer, it will allow the killer to chase other survivors who will obviously want to pull the killer AWAY from the downed survivor, but the killer won't have to easily give up a down they get. Could a fast mover down all 4 survivors like this?
The simple answer is, yes. But if the killer is able to down all 4 people while you have a chance to try and crawl outside the radius and pick yourself up, id say the killer won that. I just don't want to be left on the ground with no way to help of play and just wait for death.
But if the killer is downing you, and then running off, across the map you have a chance for someone to come and help you while you are recovering, or the killer can pick you up to bring to hook. And then have to try and find other survivors.
This post is extremely long and I'm sure someone will come along and poke a hole in my idea, and that's fine. Ultimately though, It won't make it easy for the survivors to pick themselves up, there would be risks and rewards for it, but it also allows the killer to play but not simply down someone and forget they exist.
I ultimately love a good skirmish in a game, but if the killer outplays the survivors and downs all four 'cause you were being silly, that's on the survivors, and if the survivors are charging and harassing the killer harder than the TSA seeing someone try to take more than 3 fl oz. of liquid on a plane, the killer needs to figure that out. Ultimately survivors should never be picking THEMSELVES up off the ground without the help of perks or others... So that's on you killer.
But long post over...
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Big problem with base terror radius: Wesker has 40 meters, Nurse has 32 meters, Myers in T2 has 16 meters. So a Myers would be forced to pick up where a Nurse can slug. And distance based on killer is really skewed, because a Nurse or Kaneki will be right back at you within 0.1 seconds, despite those killers rarely needing to slug anyway, while a Myers would need an additional 9 seconds just to close the gap, despite being a killer who needs to rely on slugging sometimes. And yeah, stealth killers do have the benefit to sneak up, but they dont have the mobility to react. A nurse could go from side A to side B, down a survivor and be back quick enough to down you again and still hook you. A t1 myers would be lucky to down someone fast enough before you can pick up, since his TR is 0.
I would have actually wanted to do cleansed totems at first, because it gives reasons for survivors to spend time on totems and not on gens, but big problem is that totems are extremely RNG reliant, where generator spread on average is very similar between games.
As for the crawl speed and pallets, thats genuinely not too big of a deal. Either they were always going to be inside the pallet range anyway, or you can be at the edge of the pallet and use an m1 to swing out far away enough.
Also, as for reference, 100% increased crawlspeed makes you only slightly faster than crouching. Try crouching from any location to under a pallet while standing still for 0.5 seconds because being downed comes with an animation you cant crawl in. That's how impactful the speed increase would be. It's really not that big of a deal. 100% sounds like a LOT, but slugged survivors move at 0.7 meters per second. As a comparison, Myers actively stalking a survivor in T1 moves at 0.84 meters per second. A stalking T1 Myers moves faster than a slugged survivor. Doubling that speed really doesnt change much.0
