http://dbd.game/killswitch
Stop using kill rates as evidence of anything...
Comments
-
If you want to criticize my points go ahead, but assuming who I am as a person and criticizing me because you "don't think I play killer" is the point where discussion breaks down and becomes ad hominem.
You do know you can continue the conversation in a new reply... that way people can see the flow of discussion, and most importantly, the people involved in the discussion can be notified of an addition so they can address it...
6 -
But again… how do you fix this? The entire problem before was that killer wasn't as lethal as it should've been. It's always going to be favored to one side, there is no balancing it.
The only way you drop killrates without making it feel awful for killers is making hooks the win condition and not kills. And considering they haven't done it yet and the only plans they have are "anti-*insert problematic killer playstyle*", that doesn't at all fix the problem that sometimes those problematic killer playstyles are the only viable way to win… then what is the point?
We've had this issue for years now. I've been recommending basekit changes to killers for YEARS now that would ease off on tunneling, camping, and slugging or at least let them fix those playstyles without butchering the entire killer gameplay loop. And they haven't done and don't even have plans for it.
1 -
Well said, my friend, though I do think the problem is even more complicated than that.
Because yes, I do think that something had to be done about the "go next" epidemic. The sheer amount of games ruined in recent times because a player decides to suicide on hook is extremely unhealthy for the game.
Now, ideally the problem could be fixed by addressing the reasons why players decide to suicide on hook and abandon the match. The problem is that the reasons why a survivor would decide to leave early varies heavily from player to player, and some of those reasons have no fix.
Is the survivor role less enjoyable than what it used to be? Yes. Does it needs improvements? Yes, and reversions I'd say. But how do we determine if someone leaving early was caused by the, overall, less enjoyable experience when playing survivor, or if they left because they don't like a certain killer, or a certain map, or their build isn't working?
It is very difficult to know. The easiest solution is removing the option to leave early while bypassing the penalty, which is what the devs are doing.
Unfortunately, they are doing it WAY before the much needed and welcome adjustments of phase 2, which should help mitigate some of the issues we currently have. And, unless they take the time to look at the maps and perks, it won't even be enough. But delaying the adjustments to the "go next" thing means more hook suicides and games ruined until phase 2.
It is one hell of a problem. Honestly, the best solution is just reverting the entire game to a previous state and take a different balancing direction.
3 -
I imagine few go into a match with the expressed purpose of ruining it.
3 -
There is alleviating it. You cannot force people to enjoy things they don't enjoy. For example, Dredge triggers massive headaches for me, I would sit inside of a locker, unplug my headset and close my eyes until it was done. It simply wasn't worth it.
You could adjust BP gains for Survivor. You could make it so that there's a real comeback mechanic. You could make the game less Survivor-favored at 4v1 and much less Killer-favored in a 3v1. You could remove a couple of gens in favor of side objectives. You could design some half-decent maps. We could admit that Realm Beyond was a failure.
Other than perma-banning people who give up, or who play in a way you don't like, there isn't any fixing it. But we can try.
6 -
To be fair, the whole process of making killers more lethal was flawed.
Because it didn't happen early in the game's lifespan. By the time this whole process of 60% kill rates started, survivors had already lost most of their best resources. The survivor role objectively wasn't even that strong anymore.
They could have made killers stronger without taking away what little survivors had left.
8 -
Killer was lethal enough, but it was difficult and annoying to play. There were mechanics that Survivors had that were just unpleasant to face, along with large but densely populated maps. The amount of skill needed as a Killer, to counter said things, was NOT proportional to the amount of skill Survivors needed to display to take full advantage of them.
Now, Survivors have functionally zero annoying mechanics compared to yesteryear. Maps are tiny and have few loops, and Killer does not take nearly as much skill as Survivor. We have reversed course too far.
9 -
We could admit that Realm Beyond was a failure.
Now that I would love to see. I've always, always hated it.
In my opinion the Realm Beyond was easily one of the worst things ever implemented in DBD: not only did it ruin the game's atmosphere and visual identity, but also made the maps worse. Literally all of them.
That is why I hope the Swamp maps are never reworked, and if they are to be reworked I hope it takes as long as humanly possible.
5 -
I do think they should go back to larger maps. I think it would help a lot of things, but I have to think of something to help the Killers without mobility. If we can solve that, I don't foresee many issues.
5 -
So, let me make sure I'm being clear: you seem to think that the kill rate is the problem. That's not what I'm saying (though I do believe that 55% is better for game health than where we are).
One thing that we (should have) learned from the past 3 years is that you simply cannot buff killers without addressing these strategies first.
Every. Single. Time. Killers have been given any kind of a buff, they use that to camp, tunnel, and slug more. Even the height of the gen kick and 3 gen metas, when killers effectively had infinite time to play the match, saw an increase in camping and tunneling.
The only way to tackle this is to meaningfully nerf excessive tunneling, camping, and slugging, and then looking at what needs adjusted individually for killers.
Not the other way around. We've been trying the "just buff killers and we'll stop" strategy for 3 years, and guess what, we get the "buff" part down, and the "stopping" never happens. If anything, we get responses like yours where "yOu HaVe To Play LiKe ThIs" and they continue to camp and tunnel every game, sometimes every hook.
6 -
No if you add basekit additions like benefits to multihooking, it would not cause more slugging, tunneling, or camping because it would be benefits EXCLUSIVE to it.
Add status effect buffs to killers who multihook. The more hooks you get to different survivors the stronger the effects become. More regress from a base gen kick, faster vault speed, etc etc and things of that nature.
There's literally no way to fix no mobility killers on large maps without just… giving them mobility?? Whether that be random speed boosts or a literal rework to mobility, it's still just giving them mobility.
0 -
Eh DBD was never a fun game to "die in" like other asymm games. DBD was always and continues to be built off the back of spite and salt. Every match is based around what you can do to make the other party miserable and deny them gameplay and BHVR only continues to add to it. In contrast to other asymm games where the power role is viewed as the match facilitator in which to cultivate fun, in DBD it's just viewed as a way to make small people feel big for a brief moment.
The refusal to balance SWF, to balance SoloQ, to balance Killers, but they focus on continuing to rework maps so that you can see all four corners at all times while constantly adding Killers that have insane map traversal. The refusal to add voice comms so that an actual community and accountability could be garnered; the refusal to actually decide if their game is serious enough to warrant +72hr DC penalties, but they don't even have a functioning MMR system. The list goes on and on.
1 -
They could make it so killers get a little speed boost after hooking someone and to not make it affect stronger killers, it would deactivate by the same conditions as bloodlust and by starting a chase. That‘s the only way I see to give non mobility killers some mobility without adding portals.
1 -
How do you solve moonwalking to retain the boost?
5 -
everyone should play against players of their skill level, including killer mains who act like "omg i have to tunnel and camp every match to win" just so that they can realize those are extremely situational and not go-to strats for every match because their opponents are guaranteed to have one weak link due to soloQ players being bigger part of matchmaking pool
-1 -
And they will be now that go next on hook is basically being removed. And Fyi you can't make something enjoyable for everyone when it's a Us vs Them type game changes will either ruin or enhance the fun depending on the side
1 -
You do understand that if they have a weak link, then the strat is to tunnel out the weak link, correct?
That's literally the point. You're just describing tunneling but in a different way as if it's any different. Tunneling, camping, and slugging aren't the main strat. Killers don't WANT to do those, or at least I don't because it isn't fun. But you have to realize at times you don't have a choice, multihooking has ZERO benefits to it. It is an active detriment to yourself, if you want to multihook. Leaving yourself in a 4v1 for a long period of time, is asking to lose because you cannot win when you have 3 survs doing gens while you're out in a chase.
So killers have a choice. Playstyles that lead to wins, or a playstyle that is an active detriment to do. What do you think they are going to choose?
0 -
It would be foolish to think that removing 4% will do anything except shift the issue.
-1 -
I would probably change the chase detection, so it can‘t be used that way and I forgot to mention above that I would only give haste for a certain amount of time.
0 -
Larger maps I think can still cause a bit of an issue, my friend. Except Red Forest and Pale Rose, because these maps used to be larger and players know that, they are used to dealing with those maps being large and have their strategies for it.
I think every map we have should be reverted to the state they were before the original map adjustments from 3.7.0, and the new maps adjusted to have similar layouts.
Scrap the new tiles, go back to a model we know that can and will work.
I don't think that is the case, to be honest.
Tunneling, camping or slugging aren't done because they are required. They are done because such strategies, tunneling in particular, massively tips the scales in the killer's favor, and they do so because these strategies were allowed to spiral out of control.
Tunneling, camping and slugging have always existed in DBD, of course. But they didn't cause nearly as much damage to the game as they do these days because they had proper counters. Slugging was harder to do because less killers had mobility as a power, camping was basically a guaranteed loss that would grant the killer one kill at best, and tunneling, arguably the most problematic of the three, meant that the killer would waste a lot of time going after a survivor who had the resources to protect themselves.
And, funnily enough, back then killers were expected to multihook and they did. Myself included, of course, gotta make that clear. You could reasonably go into a DBD game expecting the killer to spread hooks, which they did. And killers didn't lose every single game they played, not at all.
But let's think about current DBD: all three of these strategies are more problematic now. Camping to a lesser extent, yes, but slugging is worse because of the wave of high-mobility killers, and tunneling is genuinely unhealthy. Think of current day Coldwind Farm, for instance. Even if you have DS and OTR equipped you can't be expected to protect yourself against a tunneler in Coldwind Farm because the game doesn't give you enough resources to do so.
These strategies were not addressed in the past because you could fight against them. Now you can't, and it has reached a point where things are so bad that we need to get rid of them, they cannot exist in the current state of the game.
6 -
People give up over anything. They give up over unfixable things, you will
NEVERfix that problem outside of just straight up punishing giving up. You can't fix a survivor having a bad first chase. You can't fix a survivor not liking a certain killer. You can't fix a survivor not liking a certain map. You just can't.But people would be less likely to give up over a bad first chase if their other matches are of higher quality. You're more likely to quit if -every- match is bad, and you're less likely to quit if you have a couple of good matches tossed in there.
It's basically a case of the straw breaking the camel's back, but the straw itself isn't the problem. It's everything else the camel is already dealing with that makes the straw 'too much'.
If they had a bad 5 past matches,
DON'T QUEUE. That's the fix. Stop queueing if you aren't having fun. Like???But if -everyone- is quitting all the time, this advice would rend the playerbase to such a degree that you can't get matches anymore. Aren't people already complaining about long killer queues?
5 -
I think that it was the density of tiles that was the problem, along with the size.
Large maps, like Cowshed, with loops that chain from one side of the map to another were bad. Larger maps, with loops that are stronger individually, but more spread out, would be better. It would make it more difficult to tunnel AND hold gens. Objectives being further apart is better for everyone.
Ultimately, I doubt they do it. It would mean admitting they spent a lot of time and money on a mistake.
6 -
Fair enough, I see your point. Yes, that could work.
Though unfortunately, it does indeed seem that they are unlikely to revert most if not all of the Realm Beyond changes, and it is really bad that we'll be stuck with the new tiles and map design for a long time.
4 -
Well it may be a "flawed stat" but it still works for it's intended purpose
We can't ignore it for reasons… plus if we don't use KR then we can't use ER
2 -
Eh DBD was never a fun game to "die in" like other asymm games. DBD was always and continues to be built off the back of spite and salt.
I mean, this is purely subjective, but this isn't my experience. At least not my experience with past DbD. I certainly have had many fun matches, including those where I won or lost, as either killer or survivor. I've given props/GG to opponents for fun matches regardless of the outcome, and even given door/hatch to survivors who were particularly fun or funny, as well as offering myself as a kill or mori to killers for the same.
Not that that's common, or even something that should be expected, but that certainly happened for me a lot more in the past. And I typically won't do those things when the game isn't fun, which has been more and more as the years/patches go on.
And genuinely, if you consider the game to be "built off the back of spite and salt" as you put it, why are you even still playing? If you truly feel that everyone in this game has the worst intentions, then I feel bad for you. Especially bad that you continue to choose to stay in what you self-describe as an abusive environment.
The refusal to balance SWF,
I won't pretend that every killer is equal, or that solo queue is in a good spot, but they put out the stats that, yes, they actually have balanced SWF overall. In fact, the numbers they gave us most recently shows that solo q was escaping slightly more than people who were grouped in any group size, and everyone was escaping at about 41% or less overall in every group size. There was a very weak correlation also, that being in a group was actively detrimental to escape rates… so altruism actually does get you killed in this game.
So, unfortunately, instead of making the game better for solo q, they chose to listen to some aspects of the community and make the SWF experience just as awful.
0 -
Larger maps were an issue for killers that didn't have a form of mobility. If you hook a survivor and realize from BBQ that you have to spend the next 30ish seconds just walking to START the next chase, it feels pretty bad. That's why often times killers would decide early on to just completely ignore half the map. Not a problem for a killer with a teleport, or someone like Billy... but for someone like Artist or Trickster, spending a significant amount of time just crossing the map over and over sucks.
4 -
No if you add basekit additions like benefits to multihooking, it would not cause more slugging, tunneling, or camping because it would be benefits EXCLUSIVE to it.
So, again, adding any kind of buff has only led to that buff or improvement to be used to camp and tunnel more effectively.
The only "incentive" that I think would be good is to add the old BBQ bonus as base kit for spreading hooks, and add a new UI element for it. And that, only because the benefit is extrinsic to the match, and doesn't impact the balance of the game in any way. It might change the behavior of some players, but it's also not going to impact things in the core gameplay loop.
But you hit the nail on the head that these things would have to be exclusive to tunneling and camping, but then how do you prevent them from being used to tunnel and camp? The only real way to give any kind of incentive to spread hooks is to deactivate the incentive as soon as one survivor dies. And even then, with that severe of a condition, if you're giving "haste or action speed per hook", that would still be a pretty big benefit even if your first 3 hooks are the same person.
There is no incentive they can give that's stronger than a 3v1. There just isn't. And any incentive that is stronger than a 3v1 scenario would be so broken that it can't possibly be balanced.
4 -
Problem with her kill rates was people didnt dc they killed them selfs on hook to bypass penalty, thats why she had 70% kill rate.
1 -
The game is killer sided only the first half then it becomes more survivor sided if we dont include s- tier killrs and some high a-tiers. You as survivor arent suposed to run the killer all game like no0b3 against some baby killer, its team play you are buying time for your team to compleat objective and if you are good killer will leave you or loose game if your team doesnt sucks and do gens. Look at com players even best nurses and blights are sweating against them and on top of that survivors hve perks restrictions if they didnt then it would be different story.
-5 -
Read my comment above it where I first floated the idea.
I said that I needed to figure out how to give mobility to those Killers without it, because I viewed it as the main issue.
6 -
Yeah lets stop using the truth to explain the bad killer ideology of bhvr.
1 -
Would be nice if they added doors similar to Springtrap's or something. Maybe place them on the corners of the map that are usable while a survivor is on a hook.
0 -
Just to clear something up and to stop the arguing, yes matches with DC's are not counted in the kill rates we share, and whilst matches with hook suicides do count in those kill rates its only a very slight difference when we exclude those matches.
and for whoever mentioned it, Huntress is well above a 52% kill rate, much much closer to the 60% target.
16 -
i think they’ll never be able to iron out all the nuanced gray areas of this game when it comes to what everyone would consider a clean win loss scenario. I think when it comes to data you have to account for all the shenanigans no matter which way you cut it because there are and will always be shenanigans that makes the data skew, so you have to look at it all otherwise you’re pushing selective reports, and that’s just a misrepresentation of the full truth. So idk it’s fine considering it’s a sandbox game. That’s just my thoughts and as someone whose job title starts with data seems the most logical. Otherwise it’s like saying “just look at this , and not all this swept under the rug for numbers reason” I believe the term is called “cooking the books”
1 -
thank you Mandy
4 -
Buddy even back then killers didn't multihook, they just brute forced through anti-tunnel. Let's not do this.
So again… if you make it based on number of hooks and how spread out your hooks are (a.k.a multihooking) it PHYSICALLY cannot be used to benefit tunneling, camping, etc etc.
-8 -
60% isn't far to high. Because it doesn't actually mean what people think it means. Nurse doesn't have a crazy kill rate because she is hard to learn. New players make her kill rate drop while experienced nurses wreck teams left and right. The percentages aren't accurate so 60%doesn't mean anything in the long run.
-9 -
Agreed 👍 People who quit ruin matches for everyone else and human behavior can't be patched out. The abandon feature has just made things so much worse. Teach people it's ok to quit and they make it a pattern.
-4 -
So again… if you make it based on number of hooks and how spread out your hooks are (a.k.a multihooking) it PHYSICALLY cannot be used to benefit tunneling, camping, etc etc.
But that's not how it will play out. If you give even one scrap of anything on the first hook, even if it gives nothing else to hooking the same survivor twice in a row, that is nothing but a direct buff to tunneling.
This has been tried before, the carrot. Does. Not. Work. Here.
6 -
That is not actually the case.
Well, it happened sometimes, of course. Like I said tunneling and other disliked strategies have always existed, but generally speaking you could very well go into any DBD match and expect the killer to spread hooks.
Most killers played that way. I, as someone who has been playing DBD since 2018, played that way and still do. You can find plenty of videos of regular games in the Old DBD where the killers aren't tunneling at all. Especially, of course, during the days of old BBQ.
9 -
Are you purposefully ignoring what I'm saying so you can try and prove your point even though you're literally arguing air???
You do not get benefits from hooking the same person. That would defeat the purpose of benefits to multihooking. You do not get benefits from just 1-2 hooks, that defeats the purpose of multihooking.
Everything you're saying will happen, is quite literally the complete opposite of the change I am suggesting, you're just arguing to argue.
Yes… people can not tunnel and people have not tunneled since forever, that doesn't change the point. That doesn't mean that multihooking isn't an objectively dumb thing to do. Because there is no benefit to it.
Leaving 4 survivors alive, unless you are quite literally downing people in 15 seconds of finding them (to which I'm sorry but you're playing bums), is not viable. It just isn't, you are actively performing a playstyle that is a detriment to you. That is simply the truth.
-3 -
You are assuming two things.
1) That by giving Killers more tools, they would naturally stop tunneling/camping/whatever else.
2) That every Survivor team you play against is good.
Most players, on both sides, are quite average and are very beatable. Yes, even with less than "optimal" strategies.
8 -
The benefit to multihooking would have to massively outweigh the benefit of tunneling in order to have any impact at all.
The benefit of tunneling is the possibility of eliminating one survivor early, thereby reducing the survivors effiency by 25% permanently. The benefit to multihooking would have to be on par with, or better than, tunneling.
The carrot doesn't work.
8 -
The carrot does work. Once you give multihooking an actual purpose and benefit to doing it? You can do all the anti-whatever patches you want. Doing anti-whatever patches when you still haven't given an actual benefit to multihooking in LITERAL years outside of like… 2 perks in the whole game, just butchers more viable playstyles while leaving the playstyle you WANT people to do, as complete garbage.
It's plain and simple. Multihooking sucks. Not improving that, but still doing anti-whatever patches just worsens the killer experience and benefits survivors when you could just… benefit both sides???
-5 -
You cannot give a carrot because the carrot would have to be massively overpowered, just like tunneling.
We all agree that CoB, Overcharge, PR, Eruption meta was pretty horrific, right? We all know that was stupidly busted OP.
That still didn't dissuade people from tunneling. Whatever you give to multi-hooking has to be STRONGER than the strongest Killer meta we have ever seen. The only way multi-hooking "replaces" tunneling is by being so easy and so strong that it's the new meta.
8 -
The carrot doesn't work.
Again, I point out that any benefit to multi-hooking would have to be extreme to have any noticable impact on tunneling.
Why is tunneling strong? Because it permanently reduces survivor efficiency by 25% for the remainder of the trial. Any benefit to multi-hooking would need to be on par with that, at the minimum.
6 -
Ok. Again, this is why I say you are not reading and you are just arguing to argue.
I JUST said… if you make multihooking better you can then do all the anti-whatever patches you want. Meaning, you can do that anti-tunneling stuff and make tunneling worse, but at least make multihooking an actual viable strategy first.
Please, just read. That's all I ask. You are arguing against something that I am not saying. Holy christ man.
-6 -
And yet, it works. It always did.
5 -
Never consistently though. Doing multihooking and trying to win is hardly up to your skill, it's a wheelspin. You either get even remotely half competent survivors and you lose, or they suck and you win. Because no competent survivor team is losing against that.
It's why anytime you see the "pro" play or people doing streaks and actively wanting to win, they can start off by wanting to be nice and fair and play the fun way that people actually want… but then you realize the survivors aren't god awful it quickly becomes "oh they're taking advantage of the fact that I'm actively just letting 4 of them live at the same time".
BHVR needs to close the gap of how survivor sided the game is in a 4v1 and how killer sided it becomes in 3v1 and below, if they want any chance of multihooking being the main playstyle. Because all it currently is… multihooking plays towards the 4v1 (survivor sided) while tunneling plays towards making the game 3v1 and below (killer sided). There's zero reason to do multihooking and just making tunneling worse doesn't fix that, all you do is make killer feel awful to play.
-5 -
Eh most of it isn't subjective, it's observable in our reality and it's reiterated through all the objective issues with the game. SoloQ Survs are expeditiously quitting out of the majority of their matches while Killers continue to slug/tunnel/camp with impunity to fulfill their bottom barrel ego's. The game lacks fun unless you're playing Killer and are getting your rocks off or you're playing SWF and getting your rocks off, both involve ruining the other party. People who say different are lying to themselves as well as others.
I loath the "why are you still playing" comment, it's the comment people make when they have no real counter. I play it because I paid for it and I have a right to. I also take breaks from it and come back here and there to see what's been changed and updated, you have no idea what my playtime frequency is. I also can critique the game and still play it, I obviously engage with these forums because I want the game to improve and unfortunately it's like the only asymm game still alive, which is a shame because it generally is bad and has been ruining this genre and I liked every other asymm way more haha
I enjoyed F13, Evil Dead, Chainsaw and Killer Clowns infinitely more than I've ever enjoyed this game to date.
I also do not care about any stats BHVR publishes, there are multiple factors that show the stats are skewed, if we even are to take them at face value anyway because BHVR could just be fabricating all the stats regardless, but that's another topic entirely.
At the end of the day, BHVR has to literally trap people into matches because otherwise people don't want to be in them, that alone says everything that needs to be.
3
