http://dbd.game/killswitch
"Tunneling is the only way to consistently win"
Comments
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well you said you need to be rotating people onto the hook so obviously my caveman brain immediately jumped to the silly conclusion that you need quick chases to do that but clearly I am mistaken
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What I'm seeing is Killer mains constantly claiming that "Tunneling is the only way to win," just like the whole topic of this thread. That tells me that anything less than a 100% kill rate is unacceptable for them. Heaven forbid that they take a chance that they might actually lose a game here and there by spreading hooks.
Buffing Killers has done nothing to disincentivize tunneling, as shown since 6.1.0. So now the devs are trying it in reverse. Mandy has said that if killrates suffer as a result of the upcoming anti tunnel/camp/slug, then Killers will be adjusted as needed.
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If you'd read a little further, you'd see me saying that the rotation can have gaps between the save and the next hook, as long as they aren't tremendously far apart.
Occupying multiple survivors slows down generator repair, which gives you more time to occupy survivors again, which slows the generators down again. It's a loop.
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Survivors will literally never get over when killers got 2.5% on kicks and a quarter of a second off of their pallet breaks. By the way, that was the same update that gave survivors basekit BT, which is arguably a lot more impactful than .2 seconds off of a gen kick.
These are the patch notes for 6.1, for those wondering about these "amazing buffs that killers got."
- Generators take 90 seconds for a single survivor to repair (was 80 seconds)
- Killers kicking a generator now immediately cause a 2.5% loss of progress in addition to starting regression
- Bloodlust trigger times have been reduced to 15 seconds for Tier 1, 25 seconds for Tier 2, and 35 seconds for Tier 3 (was 15 seconds, 30 seconds, and 45 seconds)
- The following Killer actions have been sped up by 10%:
- Time to kick a pallet or wall has been reduced to 2.34 seconds (was 2.6 seconds)
- Time to kick a generator has been reduced to 1.8 seconds (was 2 seconds)
- Cooldown time after a successful hit has been reduced to 2.7 seconds (was 3 seconds)
- Duration of the Survivor speed boost when hit has been reduced to 1.8 seconds (was 2 seconds)
- Survivors now have a modified version of Borrowed Time as a baseline ability, no perk required
- Unhooked Survivors now get a 7% movement speed bonus and Endurance for 5 seconds
- The speed bonus and Endurance effect are removed if the Survivor performs a Conspicuous Action
- New Term - Conspicuous Actions
- Includes: Repairing a Generator, healing yourself or others, cleansing or blessing a Totem, sabotaging a hook, unhooking a survivor, and opening an exit gate.
- Added a new section and description to the Game Manual.
- Endurance status effect is now cancelled by Conspicuous Actions
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Survivors will literally never get over when killers got 2.5% on kicks and a quarter of a second off of their pallet breaks.
And Killers never seem to remember that when they complain about gens popping too fast.
I would argue that the purpose of the basekit BT was more to prevent Survivors from being insta-downed after an unhook rather than to disincentivize tunneling. And so that Survivors could have a little more freedom in their builds rather than having to run BT every game.
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what are you talking about, that change let me 12 hook against every 4 man ive ever gone against… perhaps it is your own skill you should be working on
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My point is that most of the changes were literally fractions of a second. One free stack of STBFL isn't some massive buff. It's a buff, and made killer feel better, but it's not absolutely game changing.
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To be fair, the survivor getting noticeably less distance on hit kinda was game changing. That was a crazy good buff that killers got.
That and the death of Dead Hard alone were enough for the patch to be very impactful for killer.
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I'm not saying that it wasn't impactful, but the extra distance gained from .3 of a second is 1.2m.
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These are the patch notes for 6.1, for those wondering about these "amazing buffs that killers got."As a person who really only started playing shortly after 6.1 was, those actually seem pretty amazing.
The killer lost out on one really powerful strategy, and in return gained buffs to lots of other elements of their gameplay. If you didn't employ that strategy, or you were against survivors who would have been using BT anyway, its a pretty big positive.
Like as a survivor I would gladly trade syringes and stacked commodious toolboxes for basekit 10% faster vaults. The vast majority of players would lose nothing and those fractions of a second when they grant/deny a hit are critical.
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But would you trade, say… basekit Corrupt for it?
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The mentality is a side-effect of how asymmetrical games work. In every one that exists, players assuming the role of the Killer don't want to play unless they can wipe everyone out with ease. UNLESS they're looking for a big challenge, which the genre isn't really known for providing. DBD is one of the few in the genre that allows killers to use powerful catchup mechanics at any stage of the trial, even allowing them to even the score against opponents that outrank them. Providing a genuinely "fair" experience would be the death knell to that system.
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remember 6.1.0 also made corrupt go away when downing a survivor at that point it should've been basekit with that change
they also destroyed ruin and was the source of the totem aura garbage that plagues us today that killed noed
pop got destroyed that patch since it went from total to current
ds was gutted at the time
otr got buffed to what it is now op
it was the patch that shook up the meta and nerfed killers hard and removed 2 cruches for survivors (dead hard for distance and ds) at the time
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I think that would be the case if tunneling was required which, honestly, I don't think it is. Generally speaking there isn't much being stacked against killers right now, there hasn't been for quite some time, so I don't think compensation will be needed.
Killer role is progressively losing skill expression in macro
This I completely agree with. And honestly, I blame the sheer amount of anti-loop / chase-oriented killers added to the game in quick succession for that.
We've had way too many characters who are extremely oppressive in chases and that is their only power. If their chases fail, the killer just falls apart. These characters are very unlikely to drop chase, because they are way too focused on the 1v1 aspect, instead of the 1v4.
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Consistent way to win is not the same as 100% win rate.
The fact is that leaving survivors alive only hurts the killer, because spreading hook states does not slow down the speed in which gens get done. The only way to slow down gens without perks is by incapacitating survivors either by hooking them, leaving them in dying state, or eliminating them from the game.
Of the three stated methods, only one of them is permanent for that match. The order of impact goes:
Kill a Survivor → Hook a survivor → Slug
If you want killers to spread hooks, then spreading hooks needs to be more impactful than killing a survivor.
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the game is 1v1's though since you can only chase 1 person at a time unless you're nemesis and also even if you do the 1v4 survivors will get it nerfed
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I don't think so, my friend.
DBD is 1v4, but it has way too many killers who place a lot of emphasis on the 1v1 chases. That is essentially the case for all of the anti-loop killers, who can down survivors really fast but have zero map pressure. It was fine in the past when we had only a few of those, but now there are way too many of them.
Killers designed for macro play, like OG Freddy (my beloved) and Singularity (despite his effectiveness in chase) are rarer than their chase-oriented counterparts, which is a negative thing because it damages the game in the long term. That is why you don't always see killers who know when to drop chases these days: the characters they play cannot afford to do so.
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again, I said that like 5 times, tunnelling and other strategies are not requires when more than half of your games are against survivors way below your skill level if you're just decently skilled.
new matchmaking would eliminate that because instead of balancing by winrate it will balance by in-match performance which is way more accurate at measuring skill which would lead to these strategies being required.
I think I am not going to be heard in this thread.
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exactly.
people claim how much they care about health of the game when in reality they just care about nerfing killers.
if they actually just wanted the game to be healthier, they'd advocate for it to be changed in such a way people can play optimally without causing miserable experience for everyone but this is the moment when masks go off. They just want to get rid of optimal strategies for killers, not make them healthier.
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wasn't that the pip system?
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yeah and that worked much better than SBMM.
the game however in past like 4-5 years was designed around SBMM mindset which is basically "i dont care how good you are, all that matters is if you play for kills/escapes or you dont".
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og freddy especially with i think chains? had a ridiculous amount of slowdown with the counterplay being ridiculously easy especially when everyone running self care back then
he was awful at 1v4 and 1v4 since all you needed to do was miss a skill check and he had to waste time pulling you into dream in order to hit you
he had macro play but couldn't capitalize on it and if he was released now he'd get destroyed harder than skull merchant and you'd say survivors deserve their dash slop
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well the pip system had problems since at the upper end you often saw the same survivors and just led to burnout even more than now
i feel like it just locked you into a bracket for yhe most part
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well yeah, that was the point of it and unavoidable consequence of having low amount of good players.
this is exactly what WILL happen very soon by the way from what I've heard devs say, maybe with even bigger consistency bc instead of the pip system, we'll have MMR system directly track our performance in the match which I assume are things like chase time, successful chases, etc.
and going back to the topic of the thread, in reality of such system you kinda have to tunnel on a lot of killers. or camp/slug in some specific cases.
this wouldnt be needed if devs stuck to the "balance by desire to win" system that was objectively bad but made matches better for a lot of people on a sole basis it let them control how hard they'll have their games in general if they adjust their overall playstyle.
I dont think a lot of such people will enjoy losing every game and being stuck in even deeper MMR hell because the system will not let them go because they are playing well enough to keep up, but not well enough to win (get more than 2 kills).
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i agree feel like that system will burn killers and top survivors out just like the pip system used to with the added anti killer phase 2 where a killer has no option to catch up
but on the topic we see in games at the top level even blight and nurses need to tunnel and camp since chase and gen speeds aren't close
but what this "balance by desire to win"
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I believe you are you mixing pre-rework with post-rework, my friend. Originally, the Swing Chains add-on would increase the Dream World action speed penalty only after a survivor was pulled into the Dream World for a second time. This add-on saw widespread use after the rework, where it would apply a stack-able debuff for each asleep survivor, and was used as part of the Forever Freddy build.
As for Self-Care, it had a danger to it: if you get a Skill Check during a chase and you wake up, then he can put you to sleep again and there is a chance you won't win another Dream Transition mindgame, if the Freddy player is going for those (or using Pill Bottle). Of course, that stopped being true after Self-Care fell out of the meta.
But anyway, we can discuss my all-time favorite killer some other time (feel free to DM me if you wanna discuss Old Freddy extensively), let's not derail the thread.
Back to the topic at hand:
The fact remains that killers who excel at the 1v4 are greatly outnumbered by those who excel at the 1v1. Which is the reason why a lack of macro skill expression was mentioned: they cannot express it because the only map pressure many of the modern killers have is acquired by ending chases quickly, instead of having powers that allow them to control the map.
And, in my opinion, that creates a bad scenario for both sides involved.
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Pretty much. I dont tunnel at all, ever. I lose some games, I win more games, and sometimes I draw. The game is designed to give you harder opponents the more you win, and as your skill naturally develops you'll be able to overcome them and slowly face even better players. Tunnelling hinders development, and since it prevents players from developing better macro gameplay, they will feel like they have to tunnel. And after years of playing this game, I can assure you, you won't be able to convince them otherwise that this is a hell of their own making. I've been saying for years on this very forum that when i play survivor, I see a tunnelling killer in maybe 1 out of every 12 games. They're a minority imo, and i suspect it's purely an ego thing - they have to win 100% of their games. Majority of killers manage just fine without resorting to it.
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do you think there are ever games where the killer has to tunnel/camp in order to win
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Survivors will literally never get over when killers got 2.5% on kicks and a quarter of a second off of their pallet breaks. By the way, that was the same update that gave survivors basekit BT, which is arguably a lot more impactful than .2 seconds off of a gen kick.
It isn't, except if the killer is constantly running afoul of it.
That's part of the substantial distinction between what killers got out of 6.1 and what survivors got out of it. The killer buffs are, with the one exception being the bloodlust one, universal. EVERY killer, no matter how they play, will kick a gen at some point. They will hit survivors. They will break pallets. They will make survivors sprint upon getting hit. A lot of these will be done plenty of times per match, too.
But the only killers that will notice the basekit BT are the ones who are at the hook at the moment of unhooking.
This is a list of compounding, universal killer buffs that affect every match and specifically more impactfully affect those that are not tunnelling/camping/slugging, versus survivors being -slightly- harder to tunnel and considerably harder to camp.
If you just follow the normal gameplay loop of 'Chase → down → hook → chase', then survivors got nothing out of this, while you got six buffs.
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You’re either a survivor main or you’re not playing at high mmr. I’m here to win and I’m gonna do everything in my power to, I shouldn’t have to follow some made up survivor rule book when the game is already unfair for me.
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Chase → Down → Hook → Chase
That sounds really good in theory. Until you check the generators and can't find anyone because they either pre-ran into Narnia or are hiding out. Either way, a lot of times it goes, "Chase → Down → Hook → Look → Look Some More → Back to the Hook Because You Know Someone is Coming to Save → Survivor Getting Off Hook Uses Basekit BT/OTR/DS to Bodyblock → Gets 'Tunneled' → Whines in EGC and the Forums"
Perhaps if survivors were more bold and willing to take and hold chase, there'd be less tunneling. Just saying. I'm not going to start chasing the Jake who has a 10 second (on top of Sprint Burst) head start, and I'm not going to spend 5 minutes trying to find the immersed Claudette in the Swamp. 90% of the time when I go back to hook, it's because I couldn't find someone to chase or they unhooked right next to me. And if the Unhooked person impedes my ability to go after the person who unhooked them in any way, I just "tunnel" them. Oh, and that goes for the rest of the match. You get bold with your first unhook anti-tunnel stuff, I'll assume you want to be bold with your second set, too.
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Different hypothetical.
The patch you brought up the killers lost a powerful strategy and in return received numerous basekit buffs. This meant every killer player not engaging in that strategy got a buff for nothing.
I'd easily make that trade as a survivor to lose something like powerful items that many survivors don't even use for a basekit buff even if minor that would effect every survivor.
Which is great, except the thread is about getting BHVR to change the game design, not any type of survivor rulebook.
What's your definition of tunnel?
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The kill rates prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that killers do not need to hard tunnel to win matches. They just want to get the big streaks they see their favorite killer main streamers getting. Even if killers were to only 12 hook, the average killer would still win over 50% of matches with the way the game is balanced. It would just separate the great killers from the killers with inflated MMR from abusing cheese tactics. Hopefully stage 2 will address tunneling so that this is the case. As survivor, I want to feel like the killer beat me because he actually outplayed me using game sense and chase skill, not because he was carried by broken game design. In the game's current state, a 3K for the killer actually just feels like the match was a draw, whereas a 2K feels like the killer lost, but was gifted an extra kill from BHVR just for participating.
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So why are most killers in the 50-60% killrate range? (btw 60% is what BHVR aims for). I don't think many ppl understand the games balance. If lets say half of killers stop tunneling today, then next week the stats would have dropped below 40-50% killrate.
If BHVR somehow completely nullifies tunneling, they would need a massive rework in the games balance, otherwise nobody would be playing killer anymore. A killer is supposed to feel oppressive, right now I rarely ever feel in power as killer. As solo survivor though, it only take me 1 weekend to get to IRRI1 and escape the majority of my matches (59% currently in this reset). As killer I have to sweat my a** of for every single pip I get. According to my hours played on each side, I would be a survivor main at this point, barely but I am… I've been playing A LOT MORE survivor in the last 2 years due to it being much more chill and in control of my progress.
Many players here should be forced to play killer for 100 hours straight, so their opinion can be adjusted towards reality. A content creator who plays 12 hours per day and is incredibly good at one specific killer should not be the measuring standard (which I believe many people here are looking at). The vast majority of players are still very average, both on survivor and killer side.
conclusion: The stats are as they are, which includes tunneling. Game balance on average therefor does not allow non-tunneling, unless killer wants to lose a lot.
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So why are most killers in the 50-60% killrate range? (btw 60% is what BHVR aims for). I don't think many ppl understand the games balance. If lets say half of killers stop tunneling today, then next week the stats would have dropped below 40-50% killrate.
If BHVR somehow completely nullifies tunneling, they would need a massive rework in the games balance, otherwise nobody would be playing killer anymore. A killer is supposed to feel oppressive, right now I rarely ever feel in power as killer. As solo survivor though, it only take me 1 weekend to get to IRRI1 and escape the majority of my matches (59% currently in this reset). As killer I have to sweat my a** of for every single pip I get. According to my hours played on each side, I would be a survivor main at this point, barely but I am… I've been playing A LOT MORE survivor in the last 2 years due to it being much more chill and in control of my progress.
Many players here should be forced to play killer for 100 hours straight, so their opinion can be adjusted towards reality. A content creator who plays 12 hours per day and is incredibly good at one specific killer should not be the measuring standard (which I believe many people here are looking at). The vast majority of players are still very average, both on survivor and killer side.
conclusion: The stats are as they are, which includes tunneling. Game balance on average therefor does not allow non-tunneling, unless killer wants to lose a lot.
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If the game got balanced according to your statement, it would mean that in EVERY match tunneling would be present, because without tunneling it would be impossible to get even a single kill. So you would heavily punish all the killers who don't play sweaty and force them to also hard-tunnel every game.
If you really win every game as killer then it means you're either just better or not at your highest MMR yet. Experienced Surv swf's should be able to deal with any kind of killer except the s-tier ones, depending on the map. Solo q is a different problem, but that has nothing to do with tunneling killers.-1 -
Damn. That powercreep on intel perks really messed the killer community up, huh?
Either way, a lot of times it goes, "Chase → Down → Hook → Look → Look Some More
Okay? Should we care?
YOU being consistently unable to find people doesn't make the survivor buff -not- niche.
Perhaps if survivors were more bold and willing to take and hold chase, there'd be less tunneling.
By which you mean 'survivors should just run up to me to get their first smack in, and then I'll consider chasing them'. Do you realise how entitled you sound? Why shouldn't you be expected to find survivors, and suffer for it if you fail to do so?
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good thing is that if it really affects many people, bhvr will make up in changes.
bad thing is that it's going to be another band-aid +10 seconds or gens or regression autopilot perks buff so something that would just take away skill from playing killer and just give more time to play chases because bhvr dont want to make anything else viable.
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If you are not meant to win every game, why is noed a thing? Lost 2 last night due to it.
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A hundred hours into any single killer in the game is enough to win the majority of your matches in killer role. 1000 hours in survivor role is not.
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More often than not it is not needed - depends on the killer you play and the opposition you face.
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You don't have to care. I guarantee that whatever BHVR has cooking isn't going to change this bit of gameplay. The person unhooking isn't going to have any protections. The most that'll change is having to get around the body blocking survivor trying to use their anti-tunnel offensively. Depending on how powerful that is, it may be worth it to tunnel them out if they do so.
And no, I don't think survivors should give me a free hit. But look at it like this: You have zero hook states. The guy coming off hook is now on death hook. You want me to chase you instead of chasing the guy coming off of hook. If you want me to do that, you may have to actually play some tiles instead of Shift+W with Sprint Burst all the way to main building or hiding in some bushes.
The fact of the matter is, if survivors don't want to be found, they won't be (without aura perks), especially on maps like Swamp or Toba.
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The thing is that all of those buffs compounded. And we already know how "action speed" stacking or compounding can make a big difference from small numbers.
Take your "it's just .3 seconds" example:
The killer wipes their blade for .3 seconds less, and starts moving at full speed that much sooner. The survivor getting less distance in that time also.
So with just the two changes, the amount of time it took to catch back up to that survivor was reduced by something like 4.5 seconds.
That's a lot, when taking about chase and catching up.
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So why are most killers in the 50-60% killrate range? (btw 60% is what BHVR aims for). I don't think many ppl understand the games balance. If lets say half of killers stop tunneling today, then next week the stats would have dropped below 40-50% killrate.
Maybe it is the perfect wake up call needed for it to be understood that we shouldn't try to maintain the 60% KR, it just creates a bad experience for survivors.
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We'd argue that the actions killers do makes a worse experience for survivors
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"if you just play in the least optimal way possible, a way where any team who is remotely good in chase and efficient on gens will cause you to lose, you got six small buffs"
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I refer you to Crogers' law.
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I'm not familiar with this one, and Google thinks I'm searching for an attorney. Could you elaborate?
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It's a statement I made a while back that @Firellius has been kind enough to credit me for:
'Good survivors are unbeatable, ergo, if the killer won, the survivors must not have been good'
Original usage.
Thankfully the word 'ergo' is not used a lot so I could use search to find it.
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Ah, thank you.
And it makes sense now. Well said. Lol
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