http://dbd.game/killswitch
Dead by gaslight
how long are we going to accept kill/escape rate stats as truthful when DC matches are disregarded including those where dc happened without penalty- a clear 4k??
They should include all matches. I’m fine if devs want 15% escape rate … just be honest about it. Gaslighting feels so demeaning.
Comments
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How often are you seeing DC’s in your matches? You have a valid point if DC’s occur in like 50% of matches, but in my experience it’s not even close to that. Especially now with the harsher DC penalties.
I’m a very mediocre solo queue survivor player and I manage to escape around 40% of the time according to my stats. I don’t believe the escape rate stats are wildly inflated.
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80% of games there is at least one person DCing. I can sit there getting a 8 hooks and letting them all leave and someone will leave the game, I can be playing survivor and someone will leave as soon as they are on the ground for longer than 15 seconds, or left on hook for longer than 10 seconds. The vast majority of games have at least one person leaving before abandon is even given as an option.
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It's hard to say. If it's not significant then why leave them out? It's a bit weird to not count them. Especially since we have bots now. Maybe it's only a few percentage points but we will never know for sure unless they tell us.
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That’s not statistically possible. That would mean on average any given player DC’s once every 0.8 x 1/4 or in 20% of matches, even higher if more than one person is dc-ing in these matches. How many survivors would there be remaining in the queues if the average survivor DCs once every 5 matches? Hint : very few
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Now when all slug/hooked can DC for free it is a big issue and very common. Even before that every 4-5 match someone DC on soloQ, typically before last hook when tunneled out. Imho this is the very reason why swf stats are so close to soloQ stats. From expereince, we all know how tough are soloQ and escaping is a miracle but somehow still oficially around 40% escapes rate.
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We got a question: Why should devs count DC matches?
Since a DC happened, it doesn't have the intended set up of 4 players trying to get out alive till the bitter end. So why does that need to count?
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there are on average 30k players online, first few dc are not punished harshly, also there are situations where dc isn't punished. So your "math" is misplaced
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please more posts like this so they make this game into bigger uninteractive pve skillcheck than it already is 🙏
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Because it still happened and it needs to be taken into account.
It affects the average game and the average players' experience with the game. We should know what the actual Escape Rate/Kill Rate is.
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It still has 4 players, DC surv is replaced by bot. It would show actual survivor experience becuase often DC is just giving up in a match already lost - 1 tunneled out 3 gens left etc.
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That is correct. Not sure why someone downvoted it.
Players are much more likely to DC in a game that's going badly for them, meaning that some fraction of matches that end in a certain way are selectively excluded from the statistics.
The result is that balancing adjustments are made to only some fraction, F, of matches that excludes matches with a DC. Let's call the fraction of matches with at least one DC, D, for disconnect, such that D = 1 - F. And in those D matches, we may have a significantly higher sacrifice rate than the 60% target; let's guess and call it 75% (i.e. 0.75).
While we balance toward having the fraction F of matches with a 60% sacrifice rate, the remaining matches need to be included to get the real total sacrifice rate. The real total sacrifice rate becomes 0.6F + 0.75D.
And that's higher than the target of 60%. Anyway, I wrote this here so the argument could be represented a different way for anyone who doesn't see it already.
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But that doesn't take into account of what the match would have been if that person didn't DC. It wouldn't give a clear picture of what the kill/escape rate is either.
Sometimes they DC at the start, sometimes at the end, and sometimes between. And having a bot is not the same as having a "thinking" human player.
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Doesn't matter. It happened and it affected the players in that match. Are you saying their experience doesn't matter?
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Since the devs are trying to balance around the kill rate should they balance around DCs, no matter what caused it? The DCs are not indicating anything about balance after all. It may indicate how people feel, but not strictly about balance. Sure, someone may DC cause they feel something is unbalanced but they're also likely to DC due to Internet blowing up (more likely) or not liking something (about the same as DC due to "unbalanced").
So for the sake of that, yup. No sympathy here. Blame the one who DCed for the experience. We'll play the target here.
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Please tell me in what situations DCs are not punished
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I'm going to be brutally honest: If the overall purpose of the statistics is to be used for balancing purposes, and their experience knowingly introduces a statistical anomaly, then no. In terms of feedback on the player experience? absolutely yes. I think the issue is what people want to use the data for, either actual insight or just argument fodder.
Edit: Its worth noting that there is absolutely no reason both couldn't be tracked simultaneously.
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If it was for balancing purposes, they'd have a functional MMR system.
Tracking a 10K hour team vs a 200 hour Killer isn't going to tell you much about balance.
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Indeed, which is why the game is balanced around a very chaotic average. But that chaotic average is relying on an element of the 4:1 for almost every other part of it, so its almost load bearing in a way. I'm sure it was no small part of why they completely axed the ability for matches to load in missing survivors (and lowering gens required to compensate.)
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if everyone is slugged or hooked- free Dc
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Those matches count for the kill/escape rate stats. Abandon does not equal DC. We’re talking about what percentage of matches have DCs and thus don’t count in the kill/escape rate stats.
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It would give transparancy, what is my main point. Also Bots are not that bad of a loopers. Including these matches in stats would show, if the game was winnable or not.
At first, they may shock community that escape rate is around 15-30%, but it would curb endless killer buffs
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I don’t think you know what “gaslighting” means
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I think it's funny when people pretend that they escape a lot in Solo Q. People know better than that.
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i mean it's obvious that BHVR has been gaslighting us around this issue
we know survivors d/c at high rates. these games are often 3/4ks for killers.
we also know that BHVR removes these games from their stat totals
they tell us averages but they don't tell us is what we really want to know - just how effective are the best killer players in the game?
we can watch twitch and see it for ourselves. lillithomen loses maybe 1 game with blight per 1000 games. onepumpwilly just goes on a 210+ winstreak with trapper. at the very top of the game the best killer players are just rampaging and feasting >99% of the time and it's clear. when the ceiling is so high that you basically can't lose if you know how to play it does show just how poorly balanced the game really is.
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The matches where a Nurse/Blight/Spirit/Kaneki steamrolls the team for a quick 4K, an early DC is actually very likely. So excluding them definitely is padding the stats and making killer role look weaker than it is.
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Well the irony here is that a 200 hour Nurse or Blight can routinely crush a 10K hour survivor team (2.5K hrs per survivor). So that does tell you something.
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Just want to chime in and say that even though I see at least 1 survivor DC every couple of matches, my escape rate is 39.5%. Plus, usually when one DC's, the others are likely to follow and I feel like I lose a lot of matches so I was worried that my escape rate would be lower. Kind of glad it's near 40%. Oh, and when someone DCs, we're likely to lose the match.
As for kill rates, I'm at 58.33%. So I'm hitting the 60%/40% rates that they are balancing towards despite all the DCs.
One thing I don't get is why players DC since there has always been a penalty and the fact that they do it on their first down/hook makes no sense. I get downed quite often at 4/5 gens and I push through to the end. Like, don't play the game if you're going to DC early in the match. Sometimes you have to change your strategy, or the killer messes up majorly and the match shifts in the survivors favor.
Regardless, DCing does count as a loss and it affects your escape rate. So either push through and do your best to help the team win or play something else. Not trying to sound harsh but that's the reality here. I couldn't count the amount of times I died playing a Souls-like game (Dark Souls, Elden Ring, etc.) To me, giving up means I can't learn how to face the challenge and I'd never get any better.
As for MMR, it's there but not entirely what decides who you play with or against. There have been several surveys in the past asking if we wanted to wait longer for a match so that MMR could be utilized to its full potential or if we don't want to wait long queue times meaning we are matched with people of any MMR just to play matches quicker.
I strongly support what the devs are doing, even if it feels like they aren't doing anything at all. Like I said, I didn't expect my escape rate to be so high. It felt like I was always losing but apparently I'm not paying attention to the wins I've gotten as much as I've focused on the losses.
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If there aren’t that many DCs then why devote dev time to develop systems to punish them?
If most of the DCs that occur are due to internet issues and not frustrations with the match, why punish them at all?
It’s clear DCs are happening frequently enough to justify a response and since punishment is expected to change that behavior it can be inferred that the behavior isn’t believed to be due to accidental circumstances like internet flakiness. Anecdotally, yeah - every DC I’ve seen in a match I’ve been in has seemed related to a situation where someone or everyone is getting stomped.
By excluding this data, they’re potentially excluding data from matches where one side is dominating the other. If that happens enough, it obviously skews how well a side looks in aggregate.
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I would like to see a reference for this claim. It is a DC but without penalty.
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You're also falling for the killrate thing. Most killers are hovering around 60% killrate, which can mean anything from 8 draws and 2 wins or 6 wins and 4 losses. Killrate doesn't mean anything.
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And you're just moving the goal post.
The devs don't define "wins" officially. But even if we use the community definition of 3-4k is a like win, 2k draw, and 0-1k a survivor win, the spread still looks more like 50% 3-4k, 38% 0-1k, and about 12% draws.
So by every measure (kill rate or "wins") killers are doing far, far better than survivors.
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Might be something to do with if the killer dc's the whole round gets prettymuch shut down, and if they started counting those for escape rates itd probly get more inflated. So they don't count it if anyone dc's
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So you can cheat the system and propagate your agenda? Now that we have the go-next prevention system the killrate has dropped, which is already a sign that the "problem" was just a tantrum.
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Literally, and nothing has been done to prevent such snowballing from being performed, the QoL changes solve nothing when it comes to the S Tiers or the like, as their skill ceiling is still there to be used.
I really wonder who they listen to at all.2 -
To use board games an analogy:
If we play monopoly and in the middle of the game I decide I don't like it anymore and run off, then those games can't really produce meaningful data. Yeah you could probably repair it somehow by returning all my property and money to the bank, but you can't fully fix it. Maybe another player paid more money in rent to me than the rest, should he get some back? Maybe I paid a lot of money in rent to another player, maybe even mortgaged a property to do it, should they pay money back? What about someone being closer to my property when I leave, meaning they are more likely to buy it? Monopoly doesn't have any solutions to that. Is that a flaw with the game?
What about Settlers of Catan but I decide that I like the red player so I always give them favourable trades, don't block their roads and always put the robber away from them? Should they nerf red when they release a new version to make up for it? Is it a flaw of Catan it doesn't have balance solutions for one player helping another?
These are not flaws with the respective board games, I'm pretty sure no 3+ player game has a solution for what to do when one player decides to just ruin the game by ragequiting or similar behaviour. And taking data from these two games would not be representative of the games balance.
If someone DC because they don't like Legion, there isn't really a solution to that. Sure, you could rework Legion but there are 40 killers and more being added. Not only is the design space for balanced killers limited, you can't make every killer loved by everyone. Odds are different people would hate the new Legion and refuse to play, meanwhile some old players would still hate old Legion so much they refuse to play against the new version. The issue isn't Legions balance.
Including DCs in killrates would be misleading, because it would imply the issue is killers being too strong, when it actually is people DCing so much. Sure, if it was a seperate stat (DCs happened in X% of games, the killrate with DCs was Y%, etc) that would be helpful, but joining it would lead to wrong impressions about balance, when it's actually one of players throwing the game.
The way to solve this would be very easy as well. Just increase the DC penalty and people will DC less.
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This is why it's very important for the game to have Go Next, and to properly punish survivors that want to ragequit.
Yes, it does really mess up games and statistics when survivors ragequit. But it also messes games up when survivors bypass the DC penalties and ragequit in other ways. All forms of ragequitting should be properly detected and punished.
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Why when talking about balance are you expecting killers to play like full time streamers who are the top 1% of players, but when talking about survivors we are never looking at Hens or Aryun and expecting survivors to play like them but arguing about balancing for the average player?
Killers it’s always get better this streamer can do it, survivors it’s always it’s hard for average players who think Lich/Dracula have to many abilities to learn counterplay to so the game should hand hold them instead of expecting them to get better as they can’t be expected to put the time in to improve.
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I would like to see the reference that abandons aren't counted. Because the statement, "we don't count matches with disconnects," was before the introduction of the abandon feature. So far, neither Dev's or Mod's have said abandons are discarded.
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It would if the killer had 10k hours on another platform…
At some point hours stop to matter. Some people are just good at games and pick up how to play fairly fast. Others can play for thousands of hours and still suck at a role.
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Bots are garbage at looping. Yes, they know exactly where you are and mind games are impossible, but you can abuse their AI really easy on most tiles.
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Probably because as killer with 10k hours you'll easily have a 80%+ kill rate while playing survivor you'll likely still have around 40% escape rate at best. If experience and dedication mean you're supposed to win all your matches, why is that only the case for one side?
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I think it’s funny that people pretend like solo queue is impossible instead of putting in a little bit of effort to get better. As you can see, my total play time is pretty low, indicating that I am a very casual player. Seriously, I’m not that good. Yet somehow I manage to escape over 40% of the time. It’s not that hard if you put in a little bit of effort to improve instead of constantly complaining about how “impossible” it is.
Why don’t you show us your stats so we can see whether you really are never escaping or if you just have unrealistic expectations for the game? You’re not supposed to be escaping a majority of your matches.
Fully expecting a lot of downvotes from the usual suspects who aren’t happy unless they escape 95% of the time.-3 -
Ask a dev. I will guarantee you that abandons don’t count the same as DCs and that matches with abandons count towards the kill/escape rate stats. Feel free to prove me wrong.
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Maybe because it is not your own? Gone are the days of running a killer for 5 gens and escaping. (3 get out without ever seeing the killer) If you have bad teammates or get into matches where someone DCs, that becomes outside your control and skill. That is why we see higher escape rates with SWFs. Playing with three other survivors that you know and they know you really helps when it comes to working together and escaping.
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”Very likely?” I haven’t see that in my matches in a long time. If you have the stats to prove that matches with DCs are a high percentage, I would love to see that. It’s pretty uncommon in my experience, especially now with harsher DC penalties.
How often are you escaping? I shared my stats - very curious to see yours. I have a feeling that you’re escaping a lot more often than you would like us all to believe.
-1 -
This is not gaslighting at all and isn't even remotely close to the concept of gaslighting. People in this forum should stop throwing misused words around to victimize themselves or acuse the devs of a supposed bias/favoritism that doesn't really exist.
Counting ALL matches would mean those where a survivor DC's very early to go next, just as those where the survivors end up losing because one accidentally disconects and become a bot, would all be part of the stats, which would skewer them even harder. There isn't a perfect way of accurately representing all matches in stats.
Also, the latest data is from before the removal of hook suicides. That means all those matches survivors lost because of others giving up on hook during the going next epidemic where being counted. The data was skewered in a way that INFLATED kill rates, not deflated them, and that's probably one of the reasons they aimed for average kill rates of 60%.
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Doubtful, but if you want to believe that to feel better, I’m good with that
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Can you show us one example where this has happened, with playtime stats to prove your claim? Or better yet, how about your own gameplay? I would love to you see play as a beginner Nurse against a 10K hour team.
Highly expecting that, as usual, you won’t provide any examples. You’ll just continuing to throw out baseless claims that survivor role is impossible to play, which is far easier to do than improving your own gameplay.
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It would be nice to see 2 separate stats: 1 without disconnections and 1 including the disconnections to see how great a difference disconnecting does make to the game. Without that we can only make assumptions, since people's perspectives vary wildly from barely seeing any to seeing a disconnect every other match. I do agree with OP that it would be useful to have an idea of how much of a percentage of trials are affected by players leaving, because then we can have an actual figure to base things on.
However, I don't agree with OP's use of the word "gaslight". Whilst it is true the results don't include these, the very fact BHVR have made it evidently clear that this is a total minus the disconnects shows they are transparent in what the figures are in relation to and therefore no gaslighting is happening in this respect. Gaslighting would be if they refused to say whether disconnects counted or not, or even lied and said the total includes disconnects.
Maybe it is better reword this as why BHVR refuse to show - or at least offer a separate set of results - disconnects to be seen by all. It would be nice to give this info.
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But they should take killer's DC as 0K as mostly it is done from killer's POV for the very same reason- when they think that match is beyond saving and just give up early.
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