"What are survivors supposed to do if 2 are dead and 3 gens are left?"
Comments
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Correct, they shouldn't be punished either. And I have no post in my history where I suggested otherwise, so you can't move the goalposts by attacking me. Sorry.
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It doesnt matter if the other survivors are alive or not, you're still supposed to open an exit and leave.
The trial doesnt end if half the survivors are dead. They're not a team that loses if theres more dead than alive. Theyre 4 individual contestants thrown into the same trial, regardless what the community thinks.
THe whole 2 survivors refusing to do their stuff because the hatch is a lazy way out should've been patched way earlier. Damn vultures waiting for each other to die first.
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"What are survivors supposed to do if 2 are dead and 3 gens are left?"
gens
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I think the issue is less that survivors in this scenario think hatch is the better option, and more that completing the generators isn't an option at all.
If there's no chance at all of actually finishing your objective, what incentive do players have to engage with it, especially when they could at least attempt to stealth it out and play for hatch? Even removing hatch won't fix that problem, it'd still be impossible for those players to finish gens.
I'm not saying they should be able to, mind, but that is the core of the problem. There's no reason for players to stay engaged with the game in those scenarios.
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If this happens to me, I often just give myself over to the killer so I can leave and the other person can maybe try for hatch. Playing for hatch isn't fun to me. Unfortunately, my reward for this free kill is usually to get slugged. So then I get to be stuck in the match AND not be able to do anything.
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It's very simple, survivor is supposed to lose. The game has a lot of situations like this where killer wins automatically. It's a game about one person having a default winning advantage.
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You could have something in place where it only triggers if each hook state was reached because of a separate hooking - that way no one could argue it’s efficient to just leave someone on hook to die.That would help on situation 2 if they were to go to that extreme.
But it leaves the issue that the survivors have no reason to protect that survivor once unhooked and the killer has every reason to leave them slugged.
It also doesn't deal with scenario 1 about how Killer progress doesn't feel like anything. I hate the term lose/lose, but I think it would apply here. Spread pressure, getting multiple survivors on death hook, and the survivors will get a ton of gen progress . Eliminate a survivor, and the survivors will get a ton of gen progress by the time needed to do them dropping significantly.
It just looks like we'd either need to reimagine the game as actually a 1v1v1v1v1, or the killer would need massive buffs. Because if the catch up mechanic is so extreme that 2 survivors could come back from there being 3 gens left to go we have a radically different game.
Personally, I think the mercy option is the best of the ideas proposed. If it gets down to 2 survivors and there is less than 350 charges on all the gens, the killer just wins. It wouldn't be a satisfying conclusion, but as a bonus it would prevent survivors who try to hide from the start and are just playing for hatch.
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I have the same experience. I go out of my way to have the killer find me first, hoping they will just kill me and move on, hoping they’re glad I didn’t make them play hide and seek as so many really dislike it, only to end up slugged while they go find the other survivor.
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I thought of a mechanic they could implement. I believe the game should be balanced around 12 hooking instead of trying to get to a 3v1 asap. The mechanic I thought of would be a shared life system. Where no one has any hook states but rather the whole team has 12 lives. The first 4 hooks on any Survivor would be the first stage. Hooks 5, 6, 7, and 8 would be the struggle phase. The remaining 4 would be death. So no matter what a survivor cannot normally die on hook until the killer has gotten 8 hooks. Obviously perks and such would have to be rebalanced along with other things like buffing the killer role. You could still tunnel but you would have to hook that person 9 times to eventually kill them and camping wouldn't really work anymore since the other 3 survivors should be able to complete 5 gens since they could sit on the hook for like 560 seconds.
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IMO, the mercy option would just encourage a further race to the bottom where looser and looser criteria define a killer win.
Reducing the total required charges per gen doesn’t have to outweigh the benefits to having a whole other survivor. Unless you’re knocking the charges down by 1/4 for each death then it’s not even equal in gen time, much less the benefit of having a whole other target for the killer to go after versus their time being spread across only 2 or 3 survivors. It would have to practically pop a gen by itself to be worth it to just let someone die.
A killer doesn’t need to tunnel someone out in order to feel like they made progress - people win matches all the time without tunneling. Remember the goal with an anti-tunneling solution is to discourage tunneling. Of course it’s going to make tunneling a less effective strategy, if not straight up discouraged - that’s the whole point.
I can only speak from my perspective but since when I play survivor I only play in solo queue - IMO, the game is a 1v1v1v1v1 whether it’s intended that way or not. There’s no survivor team points or team wins. If I get tunneled out first thing in a match, what possible fun did I have? What did I even accomplish to justify queuing in the first place? There is no group success.
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When Killer tries, that 40% escape rate easily drops down to 10% or below. The bulk of that is gen regression and early camping/tunneling. Any time the Survivors get a foothold, just resort to slugging and patrolling the remaining gens.
Look at how they handled anti-camping. I think we'll be fine.
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This too. If Survivors were meant to have a comeback, their endgame wouldn't be so heavily nerfed and second chance perks wouldn't be so conditional.
In my experience, they get upset when players give up. They'll slug everyone early on and then get upset if you don't pick everyone up or work on gens. But realistically, why would anyone want to engage from that point forward?
My suggestion is to run an anti-slug objective build. When the trial is dead, run around and do totems and open chests. If you get slugged, pick yourself up and do it again. Wait for everyone to go down and then surrender.
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Just remember escape rate is not win rate.
I dont think escape rate ever gets to 10% for someone though. They are clear outliers if thats the case.1 -
BHVR wanted to release an anti-slugging mechanic for Chaos Shuffle, that was so awful for the killer, that the entire event got cancelled.
It really feels like BHVR isn't trying to create something that is fair for killers, and instead is just trying to see what they can get away with. Because we've also had the "infinite unbreakable" PTB, that BHVR honestly thought would be fair for killers.
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I will gladly throw myself on a sword instead of hiding. I really don’t care it’s an unwinnable game at this point and it just drags out. This is when I miss being able to speed up hook progress.
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gens while stealthing
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Ok I get it and yes there are instances where slugging is a necessity. However the event proves that killers slug because they are lazy and even if it’s a dead zone they can literally hook anywhere with an invitation. Or they slug and seek with the last two players. There should really be no slugging in the event with remote hooking available but here we are being slugged 90% of matches.
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that was already a thing and keys were meta for that reason it was cancerous. what would happen was the last 2 survivors left or if 1 player was a troll just left
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Expect if we but catch up mechanic it would benefit greatly more survivors. I win most games 3-4 gens left if I want. I don't tunnel or camp and usually let someone at least escape. Now if they put catch up mechanic maybe I get some challenge.
Most my survivors matches in soloQ go about same maybe we get few more gens as most killer players are not good.
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Agree expect killer side does not need more gen regression unless we remove the perks. I use pain res and DMS which allow me to keep survivors from at times even fixing one gen for very long time.
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I'm still forced to slug in this event, because remote hooking requires the killer to fully pickup a survivor, which means survivors can flashbang/flashlight/pallet save the survivor.
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yes, that:s the issue with a game that is rotten at its core, no matter what you try to fix, it will never work
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That's great!
But none of that is relevant to the discussion at hand, and you could have stopped at the first sentence.You don't need to humblebrag about how good you are at the game.
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I usually just let killer find me, get last chase and die…
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I am once again proposing an egc on gens in a 2v1 situation with multiple gens left or the remaining survivors get sacrificed to the entity if time expires.
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In situations like this I offered myself to the killer but they just slug you for the 4k so damned if you do damned if you don’t.
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Slug for 4k:
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I know right?
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Make tunneling, camping and slugging impossible for killers
Done
I think its a fair trade
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It'll be next to impossible to accurately gauge what's fair as long as the trials steamroll as easily as they do. Regardless, if Killer has catchup mechanics that last all trial long, offer very little resistance (there is counterplay, but it's easily overpowered), and can be used without restraint across all characters, there HAS to be something of equal ease and power for Survivor. SWF is too unrealistic.
My solo trials are the same. I can maintain a 40%-ish streak if I play during a specific window at the start of events. Otherwise, it's a lot of trials where Killer gains an early advantage, we get a few gens done, and then they start slugging until we're all down. Even when we (rarely) open the gates, it's the same story. Escapes only happen if the Killer is sorely mismatched or if they let us win.
I'm 3k hours but still fairly casual. I can't imagine my experience is that different from the majority.
There's a lot that could make the game a lot more enjoyable and fair, but if asymmetrical games have shown anything, it's that Killers won't queue up if they can't win with ease. It's a problem for the genre overall.
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I would be down for that! Truly. However, it needs to go both ways. If they popped 3 gens and I only have 1 hook. I want a catch up mechanic. Gen speeds get reduced drastically.
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2v8 has implemented scaling difficulty so the code is there. The only issue is that it would be easy to artificially inflate or deflate numbers due to how many variables there are in the game. Also that 2v8's version of it is almost negligible. If it were beefed up and closely monitored, it could potentially replace slowdowns and catchups (second chance perks and camping/tunneling/slugging).
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It seems to me that it was very easy to accurately gauge if the anti-slugging mechanic was fair for Chaos Shuffle, since BHVR decided to cancel the entire event instead of implement it.
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Yeah at least most killers don't slug in my games but that happens still too often. I just think "chill killer" no need to win 5 gens left
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Those were just numbers i pulled off the top of my head, could be 70 secs with 3 alive and 40 for 2, would need tested. It wouldn't help with 3 gens left but if survivors are so far behind why should it. It would certainly help with 1 gen left.
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What the survivors should do.
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I have said here on the forum many times that there needs to be a bonus to survivors actions for each survivor killed. This would also solve the tunneling and camping problem. The game needs to be balanced 1v4 then 1v3 then 1v2 then 1v1.
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I don't know that I buy that. I think what's more likely is that with these latest patches flopping so hard, they're a bit hesitant about starting phase 2. So they extended the current event, which was already affected by those patches and is the right call, and shelved phase 2 even longer to maybe gain a bit more confidence with it. I don't know that it will ultimately matter since phase 1 was stalled as well, but you know.
I wasn't seeing it for a little bit but now I am again. And it makes sense, really. Play the right regression build with a strong enough Killer and get the trial over with as quickly as possible. There's very little standing in the way of that. It's just poison to the game is all and BHVR should know better with 3 years of data on this trajectory.
It might be a little strong, but I'd like to see the gen counter go down when each Survivor dies. The trial bottle necking is so common that there needs to be something to get it moving aside from forfeiting.
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I can’t even tell if they’re done with Phase 1 yet. We have a hiding prevention system, that I haven’t seen reveal anyone since the nerfs. And we have a Go Next prevention where half of it was turned off, and we have zero communication if it’s being fixed, or if it’s off forever.
Like, is BHVR happy with what they’ve done on these mechanics? Why have we literally had zero communication on this? Are we starting phase 2 even though phase 1 is arguably unfinished?
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Yeah I myself hold back a lot when playing killer so that I don't completely stomp most survivors. Especially in the event I have to be careful.
As soon as I wrote that reply to you my team was slugged 3 times a row at least we got few gens done though. But damn I can't blame if survivors don't want to use cakes especially after event as their bp gains are minimal.
But maybe killers like me keep them continuing who show some mercy.
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I think the answer is somewhere between anti-face camp and the Twins rework. Chances are what we have is what we're left with.
That was the heart of go next. Giving up unfair/lost trials and moving on to hopefully find something better. It's not the end of the world if we can't do it, but it's just going to be replaced with point farming that doesn't advance the trial at all. That's why I suggest bringing a build that lets you do anything aside from gens in this meta unless you want very minimal returns.
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The problem with those situations in general is that the killer can force a 4k by forcing the third survivor to snitch out the fourth survivor which happens a lot due to the hatch and the mindset that they wanna get a 4k at all costs.
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I’ll hop on a gen. No point hiding.
I used to just let the Killer kill me so I can move on to the next match, if there’s to many gems to do. I tend to just get slugged for the 4K, so I don’t do that anymore.1 -
This.
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Go to the killer enage in chase an use it as a means to try an improve try things you don't usually do or work on improving a a certain loop/tile.
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So you admit you a) only want the game to be fun for me but not for thee, b) like to harass people just because they beat you at the game, c) enjoy holding the Killer and one other Survivor player hostage out of pettiness because your team isn't winning, d) don't realize all Killers are not at equal strength levels?
You sound like fun to play with… /s
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