A Hag Deep Dive and Update Discussion
I've been thinking a lot about Hag lately, and I'd like to explore it. I've factored in a number of old discussions in the forums, looked through her history and explored a number of others ideas. I encourage you to read the whole thing for the full context, but of course not everyone has time for a deep dive.
If anything seems unintuitive or illogical, or ofc if you have any issues with my suggestions or have other ideas you would prefer to see, there is a decent chance I've already answered it in the deep dive, but I don't mind reiterating/re-evaluating any points, so do feel free to drop them in. So without further adue:
The TLDR - Proposal to fix Hag issues:
Basekit:
- Hag traps can no longer be placed within 8m of a hooked Survivor. Existing traps within 8m of a survivor being hooked will burn away.
- Hag gains 2 extra traps to a maximum of 12.
- Hag traps when placed are "warded" for 30s. Attempting to wipe away a warded trap will trigger the ward.
- An activated ward will cause the trap to glow orange after 1s (same hue as the hex totems) and trigger a unique alarm sound. If the trap is successfully wiped away, this followed by a shriek from the Hag for the Survivor. The Hag receives the same unique alarm notification at the same time the Survivor does, and the trap is considered triggered for 3 seconds, allowing the Hag to teleport immediately if the Hag is able to using the secondary killer power button. If unable to teleport, the secondary killer power button will create a Mud Phantasm instead.
- Mud Phantasm's will now only yank the survivors camera a maximum of 36° in the direction of the Phantasm.
Add-Ons:
- Rusty Shackles now silently creates a smaller incomplete/amorphous Mud Phantasm when the trap is triggered, which no longer pulls the camera to face it.
- Powdered Eggshell renamed/rebranded to Half Eggshell and increased to 25% Phantasm Duration (was 20%)
- Cracked Turtle Egg increased to 33% Phantasm Duration (was 30%)
- Bog water now reduces trigger range of traps by 15% (was 10%)
- Bloodied Water now reduces trigger range of traps by 30% (was 20%)
- Half Eggshell renamed/rebranded to Hunting Spider Skinshed (or let your imagination go wild). Now triggers the ward on a warded trap in 0.25s and ward activation lasts for 3.75s. (was 25% Phantasm duration)
- Bloodied Mud renamed/rebranded to Hunting Spider Carcass. Extends the duration of the trap ward by 10s. (was 30% reduced trap trigger range)
Introduction
I really like Hag. I have a soft spot for set up killers in DBD, and Lisa is a pretty unique killer... I'd argue she is almost as unique as Nurse; while she has never been particularly popular, she has always appealed to a certain type of player, and her fan base has always been pretty loyal to her...
So before we start, any update to the Hag first and foremost, must maintain the elements that keep her unique and for players of that certain archetype. She is not an m1 killer in the traditional sense, her traps are her identity, and should remain the core of her gameplay loop. We don't want a Trickster situation where we make her a 4.6m/s killer and dilute her unique gameplay away from what makes Hag, Hag.
It goes without saying, the main thing to remember here (and I'm not insulting anyone but this point is important), is we must absolutely avoid reworking her to cater to the more modern dash and projectile style killers we see in droves in modern DBD. Any rework or changes should not cater the kind of players who only see skill expression as being something purely driven by input accuracy, like Blight, Nurse, Huntress, Wesker, etc.
While this kind of skill expression is fine for these killers, this is not who the Hag is; her skill expression is far more about prediction, map knowledge, efficient and effective trap placement, macro control and out of the box thinking to catch survivors off guard.
So with that in mind...
What actually is Hag's Identity?
Her character description is pretty on point for the Hag to be fair:
"The Hag specialises in creating a dangerous web of Phantasm Traps, to be triggered by unsuspecting Survivors. She can instantly teleport to a triggered Trap, striking the Survivor that sprung it. Lock down key areas, make rescues a deadly gamble, and end chases quickly with strategic Phantasm Trap placement."
Now, with this in mind, her design fits this goal well. Hag is burdened with the troubles of being a setup killer; she is slow to traverse the map at 4.4m/s, and so tends to have to forgo gens farther afield.
The way she makes up for this is by setting up and maintaining a large web of traps, that are quite hard to see in vast majority of locations and maps, that give her the ability to heavily punish careless survivor movement in a given area, both in defending locations like generators and hooks, and in cutting survivors off at loops. She herself is also small and quite hard to see, with a smaller terror radius, so is more difficult to observe setting up her traps.
If survivors are being careful with movement, Hag is massively slowing down all survivor movement out of necessity to avoid her traps, and always adapting her methods of approaching, pressuring and looping survivors based on what she currently has set up and available in any given moment, as well as what time constraints are currently placed on survivors (usually hook timers, but also healing, or searching for totems, etc).
Hag thus is a mix of an area control killer with decent abilities to hold objectives, psuedo map mobility and maintaining pressure between hook timings and totem defence; and a zoning killer that is capable of making a large number of loops unsafe, forcing survivors to leave and gamble into a previously set up and as yet unseen snare at another loop.
In many way Hag is the ultimate set up and pay off killer...
Fantastic, so what are her issues currently?
Hag has been directly and indirectly nerfed over the years, and has been hit quite hard via the changing landscape of the game.... there have been some things that have also benefited her as well, but usually the benefits came as a double edged sword...
1 - Trap Wipe Away makes her vulnerable to survivor stalking
The removal of the trap burn did remove flashlights as a pretty hard counter to her power, and is a good change... making this a universal wipe away mechanic is much fairer and easier to balance.
However the wipe away mechanic has also allowed survivors to undo her setup basekit, and while fine in theory, it gives her a similar problem to Trapper of having to deal with a survivor trailing behind her undoing her setup. At least before it was limited to survivor loadout that you could see in the lobby, and you could always take Franklin's to mitigate the problem if really needed, however now anyone can do it at all times, and is a constant threat.
Unlike Trapper, Hag is 4.4m/s and can't effectively push a survivor doing this away. Hag relies much more heavily on her traps for everything, so someone doing this punishes her way more than Trapper... which is really saying something... 😖
2 - Hook timer increase to 70s hurts her ability to exploit her survivor movement slowdown
Hag does have a reputation of being one of the worst hook campers in the game, and this would be something I would want to also address (see Survivor issues)... but it is undeniable that even if she isn't hook camping, this change hurt her quite badly, as even the most fair minded Hag's still need to exert some level of unhook time pressure... and this change hit her ability to squeeze survivor time substantially.
Survivors now have more time to complete gens, more time to snoop for and avoid/clear traps and generally limit her zone control effectiveness in her quadrant of the map.
3 - Maps got smaller (mostly Yay!) and brighter (eeehhhhh...)
As I say it's a bit of a double edge sword with Hag, the shrinkage of maps makes it easier for her to hold gens, no longer just a 3 gen machine, she can reach to 4 sometimes 5 gens with moderate effectiveness, which just is a boon for sure...
However... smaller maps do also mean survivors are more likely to see you setting up, and with maps being brighter as well, its easier to spot you and your traps than ever before... this amplifies the problems in point 1 where your traps are easier to shut down, and also further pushes point 2 as well, where smaller distances mean that survivors can take more time to comfortably reach the hook... likely even avoiding your traps entirely.
What I'm basically saying is... the Hag's game leans entirely on her power/traps probably more so than most killers, and if they are easily shut down or subverted, she suffers a LOT for it.... which leads me neatly onto...
4 - The S Tech
.... Yeah...
This is by far Hag's biggest problem. If a whole survivor team uses this and she doesn't have Rusty Shackles, the Hag is basically a 4.4m/s killer that doesn't have a power much beyond a survivor controlled teleport.
For those who don't know, the S tech involves pointing your camera to face the survivor and run towards your screen. The Hag's traps will pull the camera automatically to face the trap , and since the Survivor is already holding S, they will instantly turn and run from the trap the moment the trap is triggered.
This basically completely deletes all the Hag's setup value of her traps in an instant... a survivor can basically give Hag all the issues of point 1, but without even having to wipe away, or even look for traps at all... just blindly run around and safely remove her traps with little the Hag can do about it. It also completely pushes the issues she had in points 2 and 3 to the point of being absurd as well in the same way...
Some Survivor side issues
1 - Traps have no limitations on placement, particularly around hook.
Exerting time pressure and defending hooks IS a part of her game plan and design. It's even described in her killer overview:
"She can instantly teleport to a triggered Trap, striking the Survivor that sprung it. Lock down key areas, make rescues a deadly gamble, and end chases quickly with strategic Phantasm Trap placement."
So hooking a survivor within her web of gens and holding unhook pressure is absolutely a part of Hag's game... however Hag has no traps placement limitations, which can be pretty cool for creating trap gauntlets.... but unfortunately this lack of spawn limitations means that Hag can trap all around a hook with impunity… this playstyle is very lame and boring, but also quite tricky to effectively play around, especially in soloQ.
The last line says "strategic trap placement"... however there is nothing strategic about trapping the holy hell out of hook... and way too many Hag's fall back from the idea of maintaining their web, to instead just trapping hooks to oblivion and camping/tunneling players out... it takes no effort and no skill to do, and this gameplay should be limited in some capacity.
2 - Rusty Shackles is a universally disliked add-on that enables a lot of Hag's most unpleasant builds.
Every player I've ever talked to, veterans to newbies, casuals to sweats, meme players, theme players, whoever... nobody likes this add-on on Hag.
Survivors get no chance to react and even try and dodge when this add-on is in play, and it betrays the usual agreement survivors have with traps, bjt at no cost to the Hag. Normally Hag has to capitalise quite quickly on her trap trigger to get value (which is something we want to fix vs. S tech), and so this gives survivors a chance to react to the trap if the trap trigger isn't convenient to the Hag. You have a chance to move away if the Hag hesitates to take the trap.
Rusty Shackles completely undoes this, and due to that lack of warning Hag can take their time and often still get a hit with no chance for the survivor to do anything about it... and where this becomes a problem often, is this add-on enables Hag to exploit mean effects of perk combos very consistently (e.g. Weave Attunement and Franklin's was very oppressive on Hag).
Now admittedly a lot of Hag's nastier builds have been gutted since Knockout and Franklin's have been trashed... but the fact a survivor can't react at all will always remain a problem whenever some mean trick of killer perks becomes an option. Rusty Shackles is in every build like this.
My personal gripe is there is something deeply unsatisfying about it. Hag jumpscares are actually quite fun to me, and her traps creates a nervousness that is lacking a lot against other killers... and Rusty Shackles turns that cool alarming jump scare and instead makes it a very boring and just annoying. Despite the result being the same... a Rusty Shackles hit feels so much worse than a normal Hag hit.
Change goals and principles/discussion points.
Hag hooks range limit - The reduction of Hag's camping ability via the trap hook limitation seems counter intuitive to her identity, however I was careful to choose 8m, since her trap trigger range is 2.7m, she can still effectively trap pretty close to hook for preservation of her hook pressure, but she can't trap all around the hook in the Survivors shadow to make it so obnoxiously difficult to play around. It's still effective to exert hook pressure, but it does take more trap commitment and set up, that a single wipe away (rather than 3 or 4) can effectively counter for survivors two pay attention.
Increased trap count - Number of traps correlates to the effectiveness of the Hag's web. While there isn't much we can really do about the 10s hook timer increase (at least without strong arming it), what we can do is allow the Hag to be a little more liberal with her trap placement. More traps means survivors have to be more careful traversing the map, since there are more opportunities for a trap to be lying in wait ahead of you.
This has the added bonus effect of effectively increasing the effective range of her web, and making her a little less 3 gen reliant, and also rewarding Hag with effective trap placement by increasing the odds she can push Survibors into her Web a little easier.
Warded Traps - A straight forward change really, it simply limits Survivors from following Hag around and bullying her by neutering her traps. The 1s initial trigger and 3s activation aligns with her wipe away mechanic, so of Hag does leave it too long, she loses the ability to protect her warded trap. She can't m1 and run for example.
Obviously some effects, like her blocking add-ons and her Iri with the cooldown can prevent her from teleporting to the warded trap, but the ability to create a Mud Phantasm instead still keeps the mechanic functional in her kit when running these add-ons.
Reduced Camera Yank - Thinking about it carefully, this is the best number I can imagine to effectively gut this effect. The camera yank is a great little horror theme addition I'd love to keep, and this change doesn't effect how most survivors interact with the traps.
The problem with values any larger than this (say 90° for example, you can create similar W/D techs). 36° still does enough to disorient/spook the survivor/get the idea across, but trying to tech it comes with issues like you can accidently run into walls, and can't usually turn far enough for it to matter without really good reactions to recognise which way they turn and respond fast enough from the survivor in addition, which seems fairer all round.
Egg and Water Add-Ons - I wanted add-ons for the new ward mechanic and having 3 variants for her duration and range add-ons is just... why?
The only reason you use the eggs is for the purple block add-ons or for slightly better anti loop flexibility, and we don't need such small differences between them... also the numbers were ugly...
Similarly since range was changed basekit, we don't need such small subtle differences between them anymore.
Suggestions I avoided
- Increased to 4.6 after teleport (and 4.6 in general) - This is simply unnecessary if you don't have S tech. Hag can usually get a hit if she reacts immediately to a trap trigger, and if she doesn't, the decision to actually take the trap is a meaningful decision for Hag. It also is a key part of mindgaming Hag at tiles, where if Survivors know a trap is down, they can bait her trap/TP and create an effective mind game, and Hag in turn can mind game taking the trap at any moment over it's 6 seconds duration to go flr a hit as well. If she becomes 4.6 however, she can just take the trap anyway and then loop normally for a short time... and doing that, she isn't really playing the Hag game anymore.
- Increased lunge after teleport - Again this is not really necessary after removal of S tech. Hag can make good use of perks like Coup and even Unrelenting to go for big swings off of traps, and should be a conscious decision of her build. The zoning power and potential mind games of an activated trap in chase gives her plenty of tools to get the job done, and she still has plenty of options if she has been diligent in her Web setup (Which itself is stronger with extra traps and the ward protection).
Overall I feel like these changes give her some nice QoL, and bring her a little more up to date, while still maintaining the core of her identity (and removing the main thing that totally kills her viability)
It also removes some of the more frustrating and irritating elements of her kit for Survivors, to nudge her more towards the more fun and engaging elements of her kit and generally make her more interesting for all.
Thought and feedback more than welcome!
Comments
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The very few Hags I go against usually aren't difficult to deal with, even before being able to wipe the traps and no matter her add-ons in play. Her rarity makes her a noob stomper, like all less seen killers that have lots in there kits for survs to deal with.
However the reason I do not play her myself (and likely why most others don't either) is because of playing DBD with the controller. Those who play her with M&K universally rebind her attack to the mouse scroll wheel, to instantly swing as you teleport.
But the input delay using a controller prevents this, as each and every action with the controller has something like a third to half a second delay. You teleport, swing, miss, and the surv gains decent distance during recovery with a slower moving killer.
The answer to this is more robust options for the controller in DBD, dealing with dead zones in the sticks, response curves, etc. Instead, sometime this year the consoles are getting M&K support, which tells me there will be no changes to controllers coming ever. I do not believe many will stop using the controller, and with more than 70% of the global playerbase on the consoles Hag will remain seldom used and forgotten. Which means none of your proposed changes will matter then.
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Some good arguments I don't disagree with there, I always support console/controller improvements.
However as a console Hag/player myself, it's rare a survivor reacts fast enough to effectively get out of range of my swing when playing at tiles as I tend to trap in not immediately obvious locations. Ofc it is obviously impossible in animation lock traps. To be fair for console in general, you often don't want to swing immediately on all killers due to spin techs and not being able to turn fast enough, so this is something you often have to account for regardless on controller/console.
Usually my decision to swing immediately is tied to how ready I was for/fast I reacted to the trap, and/or if I have Coup or Unrelenting equipped.
Vast majority of occassions I've really struggled as Hag have been as a result of someone using S tech, because that player can not only make hitting them a pain, but they can constantly disrupt your web with impunity, and shut it down for all survivors as well.
Once that is gone, Hag can always be number tweaked/improved for console later... bur her fundamental has issues that need to be addressed before getting into such details.
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#PlzHelpHag
Yas this is a shameless bump... but if nothing else, something needs to change with the S tech...
Everything else would be nice for Hag to keep up with the latest changes to the game... However a single S Tech player can completely destroy your web and basically ruin your game... it's kinda no wonder so many Hags fall back to hook trapping really...
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I'm glad someone else also wants Hag to be improved!
Those changes could work pretty well.
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Arigato gozeimasu that man!
Killers like Hag, Twins, Skull Merchant, etc often get swept away in the noise, and its hard to get any discussion going for them... Not helped of course by the PTB being the talk of the town right now....
However it never seems to be a good time to bring them up in to the ring really, so we can but try. 😅
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Tell me about it.
Skull Merchant post can gain some traction, but someone like Hag? None.
I hate it when i make a post and no one responds, but that's probably universal.
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Indeed, Skully has the slight benefit of:
😏😏😏
Though hopefully we hear more about her rework soon... cause it definitely feels like momentum has slowed on that front... and in case of Hag amd Twins... there is no momentum to begin with...
Maybe we can talk Hens or someone into trying out the old Hag Weave Attunement and Franklin's Build with Rusty Shackles and the Iri... to get murmurs going again about her 😅
I'm pretty sure she can still do it, even with the Franklin's Nerf... but Rusty Shackles sadly doesn't demonstrate the problem 🫠
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i 100% support everything listed here, i love the idea of warded traps and i agree now with the 4.6 changes and how awful trickster feels to go against… i'm really hoping for some kind of change one day for my queen hag
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I have had a thought re-reading this, and since it's a free bump (plz help Hag!):
8m hook limit does put a rather obnoxious limitation on shack... I'm think 8m makes it impossible to trap the stairwell in basement.... but I can't think of a way to check.
- Artist has a 10m hook spawn range for her crows
- Skull Merchant has a 12m hook spawn range for drones
- Twins has a Victor spawn range of 16m.
Might have to be a compromise, but I feel the number should be somewhere in 6-8m.
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These seem like fair changes. Although I'm not sure if I'd remove the S Tech, as it offers some skill expression for survivors. Baiting a trap is probably the only interesting part about facing Hag. With that gone, she'd be even less interesting to face.
Instead, maybe making Hag 4.6 for a few seconds after teleporting would help. That way the only piece of interesting counterplay could stay intact.
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Always good to hear your opinion bro, but skill expression? I might need you to explain that one, cause my experience with it, S tech is the free-est, least effort middle finger to Hag and any killer I can think of... 😏
Even Skull Merchant had to a least press a button to use her drones... S tech is literally less effort than running around a Trapper trap 😅
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It may not require a ton of skill to do, but it's something for less experienced players to learn and master, which I feel is valuable. It also encourages interaction with the killer, rather than just wiping the trap away and going to off to do a gen.
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Urgh, I do want to edit to give a better constructed argument in that post, but since its broken right now... 😮💨
Yeah, the issue I have with S tech, is regardless of whether you know a trap is there or not, you can do it as you run anywhere you auspect a trap might be and have it as an automatic trap nullifier at all times. All the stuff about warding and maintaining a web for Hag gets completely nullified by the ability to do this, as you an juat run imto traos repeatedly and force her to deal with you. If the aurvibkrs had to do something then tjats a bit mirr reasonable, but it's entirely automatic, no need for the players to time anything or look out for anything.
Now if you know a trap is placed, with the changes I've proposed, the skill expression to my mind is running tangentially into the trap to.trigger it and timing your inputs to reverse your run away from it for the maximum reduction of loat diatance. That would take skill and awareness to do...
However with S tech, there is no need for any timing or awareness... its effectively an automatic trap dodge.
4.6 is an option, but I try to avoid that as much as possible because Hags gameplay is to maintain a web of traps and herd survivors into it. The decision to take a trap or not while in chase ia a mind game itself, amd she can push survivors away from tiles by setting a trap, and push them to traps elsewhere she already has. This is what Hag is meant to be... but if she becomes 4.6, she almost always takes it because she can play as a normal killer instead of playing like Hag.
I hope that makes a bit more sense why I'm against S tech, but if there is a gap in my knwoeldge on it, do.let me know 😅
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Funnily enough I was just updating my post to elaborate more when you replied 🤣.
When I say skill expression, I don't mean that it takes a bunch of skill to do. More that it's something that players can discover and learn. Failing multiple times, but eventually getting it right. I feel that experiences like that add value to the survivor role.
I should say that I don't play Hag. As shocking as that might be. So I may not understand the negative impact of some things on Hag's playstyle. But if the S Tech is disruptive enough to her, then I would accept it's removal. I just find FOV techs to be very funny as a survivor. So I would be sad to see any go.
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Thats fair, and I do like your point about encouraging engagement with the killer. 😅
I feel S tech is the root cause of a lot of the issues surrounding Hag. I'm sure you've experienced the hook camper Hag's and the Rusty Shackles Hag's? These sadly tend to be the Hag's you encounter 90% of the time, because any Hag player who knows what they are doing is actively trying to remove S tech from the equation... and these play styles are the ones that are often no fun at all to face.
These play styles are the only 2 playstyles that AREN'T vulnerable to S tech. Hook camper Hag is sat with a mindset of who cares if you disable a trap under hook? If I have 5 more traps there and I can already port to one of them, you haven't stopped me, my campnia still in effect, and you're gonna have to commit to in at some point. Rusty Shackles Hag you can't bait me with S tech because it disables it, you have to do it by hand and KNOW the trap is there. You don't even get a warning either, no attempt to even try and react to it if you don't see it...
These play styles suck for survivor... but because S tech is a thing, this is what most experienced Hag's do to avoid the problem. The Hag that's actually playing the more interesting and fun style, the one with traps set up all over in clever places that could jump out and scare you any time, that survivors can try to bait or disable to clear escape routes, where you're trying to assess where she's been and where she is trying to herd you to? No one plays that Hag... cause she can utterly baited and boned by 1 S techer messing with her web, so instead you get cheese Hag every time...
This is why I nerfed both Hook Trapping and Rusty Shackles as well in my rework, cause these are the playstyles I don't want to see on Hag, I want Hag to play for her web, to be devious and smart with trap placement.
I feel like with the S tech removed, the skill expression for beating Hag becomes even better. You csn still use the same strategy against her, even vs. her new wards... but you actually need awareness, timing/good reactions, and good inputs to bait her now. A skilled player can absolutely still do that, and I'd argue actually gets to do that... cause you aren't seeing Cheese Hag anymore.
For less experienced players and safer plays you have wipe away, but for aggressive and more skillful plays, you have the trigger and bait, with a large genuine skill component (also bear in mind Hag has to the trap react too).
I do understand the FOV tech is humerous, but think how much of a goof Trapper can be stepping in his traps. It's funny... but also kinda pathetic... and in the face of one or two S techers... that's what Hag is... a pretty pathetic 4.4 killer who gets bullied real easy. 😭
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Yeah, she definitely needs some buffs. Larry feels like he does everything Hag does, but better. Nerfing Cheddar Hag would definitely make her less obnoxious.
Hopefully the devs have a look at your suggestions. Then manage to implement them without breaking the game. Although Space Hag sounds fun.
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Standing on her own trap as it triggers when using the blocking mud phantom add-on?
🤣🤣🤣 🚀
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I won't lie, I kind of enjoy the bugs sometimes. Some of them are insanely funny.
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131 days encounting...
Apologies for the bump... but I was gonna make a new thread asking once again about removing S tech against Hag, and this thread still basically makes all the points I wanted to make and then some.
From the killer side, S tech kills the killer and makes it pointless to play her. She is total bully fodder for Survivors who know about it. While someone following her and removing traps is annoying, at least having to crouch up and wipe away takes times, but S tech just nukes her web playstyle from orbit.
From the Survivor side meanwhile, Hag always runs Rusty Shackles (because again, S tech can't be tolerated) giving virtually no chance to outplay a triggered trap while allowing some truly nasty builds; and/or she traps the holy crap out of hooks to proxy camp, because that's all you can do to prevent Survivors busting down your web with ease.
So, I have to ask, when are we going to do something about: -
- S tech (running into you screen with your camera facing backwards to auto run from traps when they pop)?
- Rusty Shackles, the ever problematic add-on?
- Hook trap spam, the playstyle that people do instead of playing Hag properly?
Hag can and alwaya does play so nasty, and is suxh an insanely unfun noob stomper for newer players or in soloQ, but she has to because of the ways people can screw her over. The fun playstyle of her maintaining her web, planning ahead, and pushing survivors towards her carefully prepped machinations is never the Hag anyone sees... and these changes would be the minimum requirement to change that.
I'd love my other changes too, but as a bare minimum, this killer needs these elements addressed.
Post edited by UndeddJester on0 -
When i last tried to play hag i got to a generator that was nearly finnished, with 2 survivors on it, they spread out in 2 seperate directions of the hallway and waited for me to chase either one. If i placed a trap the other would wipe it away and work on the gen, if i went for the other - same thing. If i didnt commit to either of them, the gen gets done, if i stay and protect the gen, the others get done by the other 2 survivors. It felt pretty helpless. And the ward effect you mention of not being able to easily wipe them without it going off within 30s would certainly help with that scenerio. And her biggest frustration point with survivors is the minefield around hooks camping playstyle which thatd also prevent. Sounds like decent changes
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Cheers! Indeed posing an actual threat as a 4.4 killer when people can so easily subvert your traps is a constant source of pain...
This is what always leads to Hag's playimg her in such nasty ways, such as Rusty Shackles, Mint Rag, Franklin's and Weave Attunement, and then trapping the hell out of hooks. It's effectively her equivalent of basement Trapper, her power can be shut down so easily, you basically have to force Survivors to play this game to pose any threat at all.
I also appeciate the response in general! Trying to get a conversation going about Hag sometimes feels like trying to sell car insurance door to door... even though it's something that ignoring it causes a big problem when it crops up, no one wants to hear it and would prefer you to just leave 😅
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I hear you lol ive been begging for shanoa as a legendary skin in every way possible since the castlevania rift, only for tons of people to say "we alredy have shanoa on yui tho?" Lol. Its tough trying to get ideas across to the community or devs, especially when it involves a character the community barely seems to care about.
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