http://dbd.game/killswitch
When are we getting Phase 2 info?
Comments
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This isn't currently part of the plans, but it's a piece of feedback I'd be happy to pass along to the team.
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these people unironically thinking the game will become better if they just massively nerf killer's macro skillcap like this
Camping, tunnelling and slugging are at the bottom end of the skill bracket, not at the cap.
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I see that as a problem too. I'm against killers being able to see if it's a SWF and against survivors being able to see what killer they're about to face for the same reason: too many people would lobby dodge. I think the idea of seperate Rank mode sounds good at first, and even I myself had suggested it in the past but, I realized that the only way anything like that would work is if there was something you could get in Ranked mode that you couldn't get in standard mode. Like special rewards or something. Access to certain perks/killers/items that don't exist in standard. Otherwise, not many people would want to willingly make their games harder.
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yeah, back in the pre AoT era your wait at night was 10 minutes for survivor. that's how it was for a good while when I joined at the Twins before Trickster. survivors waiting seconds is a relatively new development
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Thats less of a problem with tunneling and more of a problem with the points system. It can easily be fixed by giving you a higher percentage of the other things your teammates are doing when you are being chased in general, or even for that long.
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I think bloodlust is still not as good as its needed to be for M1 killers, people have too much confidence in looping that it shows bloodlust doesnt help to the point where people are actually scared of chain looping or continuing loops.
The crows were doing a good job but it was aggresive like the initial crow build up, just that.
The revert is horrible now people are back to prolonging games just because they are salty they lost the match with 2 surv left and 3 gens left.
Crows should get a buff to them where on 2nd and 3rd crow there is a initial scream and 3rd one gradually increases screams, and honestly they should make it so just holding repair or clensing totems removes 1 crow per action, value depends what devs decide to go for.
The maps generally have to become smaller in size or they should implement a system where m1 killers will get put in smaller maps and m2 naturally get larger maps by default.
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The only perks I added were the PT and BNP change. Healing was nerfed as a buff to hit and run, a base kit playstyle.
Even if you cut the list in half, like you appear to be trying to, it's still a way, way longer and considerably more impactful list for killers.
ETA: I'll also mention that your response here is going into a lot of backpedaling to try and justify changes. There's no need, since you started with simply listing patches.
Oddly, you also had to inflate the survivor list with at least 2 changes that not only haven't happened yet, but we also have no details on.
Equally oddly, you felt it necessary to point out the "base kit unbreakable" that never made it live and they announced was never going to happen. Why didn't you then also include the "+8 seconds to healing" that they equally tested, but never put live. (I didn't include this either, because the answer is that doing so is disingenuous). Almost like you were stretching to make it look worse than the reality, which is way, way closer to my list.
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Thanks allot for the comment back! Great to hear that the feedback (or suggestion rather) is getting brought to the place(s) they need to be at.
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We need a forum bingo sheet
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I think your original list also missed that survivors get less distance after being hit (another 6.1 basekit nerf to survivors)
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Does that mean Phase 1 is done, or is the Hiding Prevention and "Go Next" Prevention, still being worked on?
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To be fair, while I fully disagree with the person you're responding to, I also think this list is a little off.
For survivor you list six things, but in this same timeframe there are also an additional two that I can remember off the top of my head and an arguable third on top of that. So, for survivor I'd probably list:
- Basekit BT
- Anti facecamp
- 3-gen/excessive stall limit
- Hook timers lengthening
- Hook grabs removed
- DC bots
- Action HUD for what your teammates are doing
- FOV slider (this is for both sides and is more QOL but it does give a small advantage)
- Visual terror radius? (this one doesn't really give an advantage but it does bear mentioning)
Then for killer, I think a few things are questionable here. Listing the damage on gen kick twice because it was buffed is a bit misleading when similar changes only get one bullet point elsewhere, flashlight clicking was removed because of concerns about epilepsy that affected both sides, and it's a stretch to put DC bots in here because they affect perks- no perk is stronger than just not having one survivor on the field. I'm also not personally going to count BNPs being nerfed, since that's just one thing and didn't conclusively address genrushing (defined here as using builds designed to maximise gen repair speed, with toolboxes mostly). If we include that, any individual balance change to a perk or addon should be included, and that gets messy quick.
So for killer I'd probably list…
- 10 extra seconds on gens
- 10% buff to action speeds
- Survivor post-hit sprint shortened
- Bloodlust buffs
- 2.5% damage to kicked gens, later buffed to 5%
- Locker saves removed
- Gen-tapping removed
- Some maps smaller, some loops weakened, etc
- CoH and medkits nerfed (I wouldn't necessarily pair this with hit and run, those two things were too strong regardless, but that's splitting hairs, it helps killers either way)
- Survivors spawning together (great for early efficiency)
- Consistent and comprehensive trend for buffing killer basekits
- Anti-hiding (though its efficacy has ping-ponged impressively…)
- FOV slider (same as the survivor list)
I think this list paints a fairer picture, though I'm probably missing things here and there. It shows more conclusively the more accurate trend- both sides do get significant changes that are at least designed to help them out, but killers do get a little more (eight or nine things listed for survivor depending on how you count it, thirteen for killers) which reflects that our cutoff point here was 6.1.0, a patch designed to reign in a much more survivor-favoured state of the game.
It also includes multiple changes where the effectiveness is up for debate, which I think is fair- the intent was still to help that role even if it didn't really work out.The person you're responding to is definitely wrong about killers never getting anything either way, of course. I'm bolstering your position more than contesting it here, I hope.
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See, I don't mind the games being harder. I don't like it when it feels unfair. When I use a perk that gives me Undetectable or makes the survivor Oblivious, yet they still pre-run about a mile because their buddy that I just hooked told them I was coming their way. Or when I bring Franklin's, and the entire squad just… drops their items. When they all start pre-dropping because I used Endfury one time.
But it's not even just that. It's knowing where your friends are at all times.
"I need a heal."
"Come to the gen by shack, I've got Botany."
Then you have certain killers that just get destroyed by SWFs. Xeno, for instance. Comms let you set up a turret (or two), and have the survivor being chased swing by to gain some extra distance. The survivor being chased will start heading to the turret before the turret has even been placed.
Or knowing which generator to work. When I'm playing solo, I don't know which gen Bill was working before he got chased off. I need to use a perk slot to get that info. SWFs? "The gen in the jungle gym across from main is at 90%." I don't know to let Nancy get the save because she has We'll Make It. I don't know that I can leave Sable slugged because she has Unbreakable.
And none of these things are "comp level" communications. These are just things that you're naturally going to tell your friends over the course of the game. If you're in a group, you don't have to waste perk slots on getting information, because you have all the information you could want and then some. You can pile on the second chance perks, healing perks, and chase perks.
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No Survivor items were "nerfed into the ground", they were balanced because they were causing balance issues. Flashlights got changed because they caused seizures in people. Medkits were too strong with the old CoH meta and currently are lightly problematic with the overbuffed heal perks we have right now. Toolboxes have barely been touched though, and that's weird because they're hands down the most efficient, best Survivor item in the game. In fact, the best one isn't even a Very Rare, it's a Rare - and event toolboxes are all patterned on it, you know, the ones that Survivors like to collect lots of. At least I do.
Toolboxes have been long overdue for an addon and balance pass since 2016. Every other item has gotten it. Flashlights, maps, keys, medkits. Toolboxes are due for one too. Survivors are highly efficient these days. It's absurd to be able to do a quarter of a generator in 10 seconds, and Toolboxes are also currently the only item that does more than one key thing - they do sabotage AND repair, but buffing sabo didn't make people use them for sabo more, it just means people keep using them for repair and now they can also sabo.
Nobody thinks Survivors should "have no items". People just think that Survivor things, perks and items included, should be balanced. Currently, some aren't, and when you have four people stacking perks and items that aren't balanced against someone who just wanted to play some Pig today, maybe a casual player…
Until these stronger teams get sorted into their proper MMR again it's going to be like this. But that doesn't change the fact that some items and perks NEED adjusting. Survivor is not immune to getting their things nerfed any more than Killer is, and as proven by the recent spawn update and Go Next update, no. Survivor does not need more, in fact all it needed was for Survivors to coordinate and stay in the round working together. That's always been all Survivor really needed.-1 -
BHVR are already not doing it correctly because instead of changing the flawed design, they punish people for using it. Your very premise right here is already wrong.
"this isn't lowering skillcap, it's raising the skill floor".
This accomplishes both. You can accomplish objectively less if you dont optimize stages, dont mindlessly pick, dont leave good positions. This is the definition of a lower skillcap. There are less ways in my skill can be expressed and yield results because I have less options and leverages.
You are capable of less. The game isn't offering an alternative. The worst is that the game isn't addressing the actual core issue that most of these strategies propagate - onesided hopeless matches. It tries to script killer's macro skill expression and force them into playing in a streamlined way when it should be scripting the very flow of the match, making each stage (1v4,1v3,1v2,1v1) more fair even if the circumstances around it werent. 1v4 should be tremendously nerfed, 1v3 should stay the same or be buffed depending on how many hook stages killer scored on each person before getting a kill, 1v2 should be buffed, 1v1 should be reworked.
And speaking of raising skill floor, you kindly listed numerous buffs that killers got in compensation of the nerfs. Care to tell me, how many of these buffs added to raising skill cap and how many added to decreasing skill floor? What part of, for example, +10 seconds on generators made killers put more skill for higher reward? And what part of it just bluntly gave killers more time to stomp bad players? And how many of these buffs just added to survivors having to be "better" at the game to play around this, raising survivor skill floor?
"And to reinforce that people aren't as skilled as they think they are at this game: one of the biggest indicators of "mastery" in anything is being able to adapt. The better you are at something, anything, the more you can accept handicaps or restrictions and still perform."
They aren't really adapting, they're just making up for progressively increasing amount of missing options by leaning into the only consistent gameplan they have - slap 3-4 hook slowdown perks + 1 chase/info and win chases as fast as you can. If you can't, you lose and will eventually drop where you can.
Adapting means changing your strategy. I am adapting when I see dogshit healing meta and take franklin leverage + sloppy addon. I am adapting when I switch my gameplan from hit&run to tunnelling because people have strong reset. I am not adapting when Im losing an option and have to do the same thing but worse. Im just forced to try harder (or lose until my opponents get easy).
Speaking of that, you don't seem to get why am I calling this noobstomping. The reason is that for the whole "wholesome chungus no tunnelling/slugging/camping killer that plays only for chases" ordeal to work, the killers will need to be destroying survivors in chases, the 1v1 skill expressive interaction. This can only be accomplished in one out of two ways - unfair power or massive skillgap to consistently and successfully beat survivors in chases to get your hooks.
You can't have that when you're playing a killer with fair chase power and long average chase time vs knowledgeable player because your killer just doesnt work in a way that lets you instantly get near the target and kill them with an unavoidable skillshot. So you will need to remove or dampen down one thing out of the equation. The reality is that pretty much most killers except majority of S/high A can be ran for a decent amount of time as long as you have resources. So there you go.
For the killer to keep up without optimal macro strategies they need to be magnitudes better than the survivor at playing the chase. They need to be massively more successful as otherwise they won't have enough time to get to their 60% expected killrate as they would need to win a lot of chases before they lose the game to get their kills.
A lot of killers make up for having fair chases by having macro powers that give killers extra leverage to pressure people and make up for longer chases. You can figure that every new nerf to macro skill expression hurts these killers disproportionately compared to chaser onetricks.
And of course, since that's the goal to have people beating down worse players, we impose artificial handicap on killers so they can't just >4k3 these worse players. We don't think about the games where killers aren't facing marginally worse opponents.
Exciting gameplay of artificial difficulty while effectively legally smurfing.
Speaking of my personal experience, the games where I feel like I can play 100% fair on either of my mains is when survivors are visibly terrible and get hit by most of the tricks in the book. Beating down these people is neither fun nor difficult (though of course, gens are popping as the game goes on since im not applying pressure correctly), but I guess that's the kind of "chill killer gameplay" that we want - scripted and boring.
As I said, this whole thing is already culminating into shallow victories and hopeless defeats for killers and utterly boring one-sided gameplay for survivors because the only thing that is left for killers to play for is chase,chase,chase, while survivors can just rush gens and play for resources and good dying spots.
If you think this is healthy for the game because whatever reasons, it's your opinion, but this mentality developers are having and the design approach is why we're having such a massive gap between S tiers and everyone else, chase killers and everyone else and why killer role is becoming more and more a noobstomper role.
Yeah, we don't know what it is. It doesn't mean we can't make noise, especially when we got a glimpse of it with the chaos shuffle antislug testing that they had. It's better to talk about it as early as we can so that maybe the developer finally acknowledges that band aid systems and blanket buffs make the game worse for everyone but people who enjoy feeding their ego by getting cheap wins.
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somebody is missing the point.
i dont care if they nerf any of these strategies if they offer viable alternatives even if they take more effort, skill, etc. I am perfectly capable of adapting, if I wasn't, I'd be a blight main andy with 4 slowdowns.
but it's very clear this isn't the approach devs will be taking. They won't give options, they'll just make it easier to win when you would win regardless of implementing these strategies and would take away the few options you do have against tough survivors.
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I'm curious about something here- when you talk about "optimised macro strategies", and also then go on to talk about how macro strategies get nerfed and that harms certain killers disproportionately, is the implication that tunnelling is one of those macro strategies?
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are you trying to imply something? yes, im talking about tunnelling as well.
it's being nerfed because "muh muh tunnelling blight/ghoul so unfair" even though a lot of other killers in the game will struggle massively against fair opposition without tunnelling to some extension, as their powers are not designed for consistently winning chases and starting new ones in record times.
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I would if the game was actually fair.
I actually do that already and play dbd comp.
I dont really think the actual game needs to be balanced just like that, but I do believe that fundamental design should be more competitive instead of whichever abomination we're having with a streamlined gameplay and disproportionate effort / reward for both sides depending on the skill level.
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I'm asking because tunnelling is very decidedly not a macro strategy, and I didn't want to launch into a whole point about it without checking that is what you meant.
Assuming that tunnelling here is any variation on "chasing someone as soon as they're unhooked", of course. Some people do have much broader definitions that can cover some kinda-sorta macro oriented things.
Chasing someone off hook to capitalise on them being injured and out of position, especially with the goal of getting them dead as soon as possible, is extremely focused on just what's right in front of you. It has a long term goal, but it isn't interested in engaging with the game's wider macro until you've tilted it massively in your favour.
The macro skill expression of this game for killer is very broad and nuanced so I can't summarise all of it in one message, but the most basic, fundamental element of it is pressuring multiple survivors at once to slow down generator repair. One on hook, one in chase, one going to save, and so on. Tunnelling is the opposite of that- leaving everyone except the person you're chasing unoccupied with only a brief break for them to be unhooked.
The whole point of doing it is to get someone out ASAP, not to juggle the survivor team or create deadzones or keep up any form of pressure. You only engage with the macro after tunnelling someone out in most cases.
Macro strategies generally get buffed most of the time, albeit indirectly. Tunnelling is just a balance problem, not a macro strategy.
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if you put it this way, then yeah, its not very correct for me to call tunnelling macro strategy. I would call macro to be any kind of strategy you're implementing in 1v4, your gameplan overall. Focusing pressure in one point is that kind of strategy as well, because you're putting all eggs in one basket, enabling survivors corresponding methods of counteracting.
"Macro strategies generally get buffed most of the time, albeit indirectly."
they are not. the few buffs you could name are outweighed by nerfs. it's incredibly difficult to "juggle survivors" when they take very little time to reset themselves, marginally delaying the critical point where you pressure culminates into a snowball and making recovering from that much easier as well.
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It would essentially be the comp mode. There's all different ways to address and balance it. I assume every idea is just a starting point. But if you're not a comp player, than it wouldn't be the mode for you. It for sure wouldn't be mine either.
That line of thought doesn't ever help anything either. Because regardless of whether it was an afterthought or not, the game has had 9 years to adjust to it. And there was very little effort to bridge that gap until recently with the HUD. At some point everyone has to admit that BHVR dropped the ball when it comes to teamwork.
Don't forget second chance perks being heavily nerfed, when they're one of the only ways Survivors can defend themselves, and the heavy denial of endgame presence. Most of our perks and aids shut off once the gates are powered (which is what makes the "free escape" argument moot every single time—what about "free kills"?). Most recently, another endgame perk was nerfed despite having no issue with the game at all.
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Survivors' current ability to reset is very good, true, but broadly speaking that doesn't counteract the fact that many tools for enabling macro strategies have been buffed many times over.
Even without taking into account that every killer basekit buff is a direct boost to their ability to keep up pressure, we've also seen information perks buffed + introduced to help killers not waste time searching for survivors, chase perks buffed + introduced to help them end chases quicker, even some stuff like stealth perks buffed + introduced so killers can get the drop on survivors and shorten the time for the first hit in a chase.
Hell, there's even good potent answers to current reset tools. This wasn't an intentional change, but the best answer to Resurgence - Gift of Pain - is even a universal tool at the moment, every player has access to it. The whole game is encompassed by just not tunnelling, and a lot of it has been getting buffed lately.
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The problem is, so many killers in the game really can't engage the game on that level of macro. They take too long to start new chases, and take too long to get another down. So instead of rotating survivors out in a steady stream of pressure, what you actually get is long stretches of time where 3 survivors are pressuring gens while the killer is only pressuring one survivor.
Breaking off chases can help, but with current heal speeds Hit and Run isn't really viable. Survivors are healed 10-20 seconds after you drop chase. You never really get ahead or stall the game. You spent 20 seconds getting the hit, and it was healed in 10.
For instance, I can play Spirit with a fun, meme-ish FttE, Furtive Chase, Nemesis, Lethal Pursuer build and generally do well and win more than I lose. Spirit can get hits and downs fast enough to support that build. If I tried that build on, say, Knight? I'd get absolutely destroyed more often than not.
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Well, I don't think that's true.
For starters, how long it takes to start new chases is entirely dependant on the player's performance, not the killer's balance. There's a small degree to which some killers are a little slower because they don't have mobility tools, but even someone like Trapper can still get into a chase reasonably quickly if the player actually knows exactly where they're going and doesn't have to waste time looking for survivors.
Getting the down is definitely an area where killer strength matters, but you have to be scraping the bottom of the barrel for the worst five-ish killers before you get to a point where a skilled player can't get reasonably quick downs on most maps. Sure, your Trappers and Skulls Merchant playing on Badham are going to struggle hard but the average killer and average map are a lot more fair than they used to be.
That just indicates a few problem killers and a few problem maps more than it does the basic fundamental skill expression of the game not being functional. For every stumble they might've made on the way, BHVR's been doing a good job ensuring almost every killer can engage with the game on the basic level.Some killers have to work harder than others, and some killers might favour different builds to others (I've been playing Sadako who I think is really quite weak, and I've been swearing by Dissolution to help her way more than I expected), but it's completely doable.
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i dont think the buffs a lot of killers receive are comparable to the nerfs they get, as I already mentioned.
sure, if we say the game is being balanced for high tiers, then yeah, Im pretty sure singularity can hold up in pubs just fine and it would stay true even after another line of broad nerfs to hit&run and slugging, the things this killer actually excels at.
but then you look at someone like springtrap (who I believe is meant to play more as ambush kind of killer than blunt chaser, but alas) or dredge, not so much.
regarding what you suggested, I already do that, but the issue is that it's not really applicable to hit&run playstyle which I personally enjoy way more than scripted and low effort chase-hook-chase. Franklin is great for that though, but it's getting nuked next patch.
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They always intended for SWF it just wasn't ready for launch back in 2016. They could have either finished KYF mode or SWF in time and went with KYF, with SWF added in not long afterwards.
Imo they underestimated the effects of comms, but teaming up with a friend or two was always planned.
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Oh, please. Billy can get all the way across the map in under 5 seconds. A normal M1 takes more like 20. That's 15 extra seconds of gen progress, multiplied by 3 survivors. That's half a gen of progress. Killers with mobility can pressure the entire map, instead of one small part of it, and they can do it quickly. If you leave your small area of control as a killer without mobility, then you're just throwing the game. Even if I know that there's a survivor on the gen over there, the problem is that I'm going to waste a ton of time getting there.
Not only that, but strong killers can "waste" perk slots on info. Weaker killers can't. They need multiple slowdowns and Bamboozle is almost required, otherwise they're going to either lose every shack/main building chase, or waste a ridiculous amount of time at any tile stronger than a jungle gym. And don't even let me get started on exhaustion perks and the amount of time they waste for weaker killers, or just how powerful pre-drop + shift w is against them.
Good survivors who know what they're doing can run weaker killers for a LOT longer than they're going to run your Nurses, Blights, or Spirits.
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Everyone's threshold for what feels unfair is definitely wide and different. I'm not going to invalidate your feelings/experiences even though we may disagree about certain issues regarding SWF (mainly because I am a person that needs to go by evidence along with experience to properly form an opinion on something). But I dare say that there's many things in DBD that are unfair, and have always been unfair, and kind of are intentionally unfair. I do believe the game is not balanced - intentionally so. I know some people disagree with that idea, but the game has lasted much longer than any other in its genre so… perhaps crazy chaos/unfairness is the key lol.
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I bring good thing to my solo queue matches aswell. I can do that after having all those p100 surviviors.
After all, why not increase my chances of escaping?Comms are helpful, I agree. That's why solo queue players should have them aswell.
Game would die out if player's could not play with each other - that's a fact. Survivior is not bearable enough for solo's.
Now we have 8 min without a game as a killer, looking for surviviors? Would be more like 15 min if you make swf's life miserable.Also, a lot of times my solo queue team got accussed of swfing, because we were somewhat organized.
That's the case when MMR works and put you in a good team, if you're decent enough.3 -
FOV slider (this is for both sides and is more QOL but it
doesgive a small advantage)What does the FOV slider do for survivors? It only works for killers.
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Good catch, I got some wires crossed and thought it also applied to survivors as well. Scratch that one.
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How long it takes to get across the map isn't the relevant number here, though. It's nice to have - it's part of why Billy's so strong - but the real thing that matters is how long it takes to get to a survivor.
They aren't always on the other side of the map. Quite often they're on the same side as you are, even— especially as the play area shrinks, very few survivors think to stagger their gens so that doesn't happen.
I also want to contest the idea that info perks are a "waste" of a slot. They're tied for the strongest class of perks to bring, alongside slowdown, and they're very useful- and you also have it backwards on which killers can afford the slots. Slower killers have a much higher need for info perks because they can't really afford to spend time looking for survivors- as you point out, it takes them longer to get to them and start the chase, so they really should be trying to do that straight away without the downtime of looking for survivors first.
Multiple slowdown builds are, to some degree, a bit of a noob trap. They can work if you know what you're doing, but slowdown in the current state of the game needs progress on your objective to work— you'll get much better outcomes from only one or two slowdown perks and filling the rest of the slots with info and chase perks.
Your play slows down the game. Downing a survivor is very potent slowdown on its own. Bringing perks that help you do that will help you slow the game down more than slapping on four unconnected slowdown perks and floundering in chase and search— which the slower killers need more, not less.0 -
The worst is that the game isn't addressing the actual core issue that most of these strategies propagate - onesided hopeless matches
It does though.
When you have a "strategy" that is so hands-down completely, no-contest more effective than everything else, people overly rely on it. That's why people like me complain about "tunneling at 5 gens" because it's taking something that really should be a comeback mechanic, and basing the entire match around it.
People "feel they need to tunnel" because of exactly this crutch. They tunnel, completely destroy survivors who are at their skill level, and boost their MMR to a point where anything else that would be required of them is too much. They can't find survivors quickly, can't chase efficiently, can't read the loops, can't identify which pallets are playable, can't manage their kit well. And they are so, absolutely convinced that they need 4 slowdowns, that they are even failing the meta game by not bringing the perks or addons that would help them in those situations.
And, it appears we agree on that, because:
They aren't really adapting, they're just making up for progressively increasing amount of missing options by leaning into the only consistent gameplan they have - slap 3-4 hook slowdown perks + 1 chase/info and win chases as fast as you can. If you can't, you lose and will eventually drop where you can.
Yes, they will drop in MMR. That is actually a huge benefit of this for killers. Assuming the anti-tunnel mechanic actually does something meaningful for tunneling at 5 gens, instead of sweating their balls off every game to feel like they're drowning against survivors who are more skilled than they are… they should lose games until they settle into their actual MMR bracket.
This whole strategy is a crutch, covering up people's innate inefficiencies with the core game mechanics. And instead of looking at those and learning, or even admitting that they could have room to improve, they are going to use every buff, advantage, or new perk/ability to tunnel even more. When that doesn't work, they scream for regression, because, again, it can't be them being inefficient, the only answer is that the game is somehow tuned against them. But it's not. Demonstrably. The Devs specifically set out to make the game lean toward the killer, and every patch, every data point confirms that they've succeeded at this.
Care to tell me, how many of these buffs added to raising skill cap and how many added to decreasing skill floor? What part of, for example, +10 seconds on generators made killers put more skill for higher reward? And what part of it just bluntly gave killers more time to stomp bad players? And how many of these buffs just added to survivors having to be "better" at the game to play around this, raising survivor skill floor?
I really don't care honestly. The "skill floor" is largely a subjective thing, and I feel like your entire fixation with it is disingenuous.
You started by creating a weirdly inflated and wildly biased list, in an attempt to show "look, survivors got more (quantity) than killers" and implied it was unfair. When I posted to show that, no killers actually got a decent amount more, you're shifting the goal post again here.
Here's what really matters: 3 years of the devs making active changes to increase kill rates. Not because 60% is "fair" or "perfectly balanced", but because "they want the killer role to be more lethal". And all of those changes to the game have combined to do exactly that.
The game has been made easier for killers, by quality (and possibly by quantity too, but that's really beside the point). So the skill floor, overall, has gone down for killers, and gone up for survivors… Which is one of the main reasons why killers are being mismatched with survivor teams who are actually more skilled than the killer.
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"When you have a "strategy" that is so hands-down completely, no-contest more effective than everything else, people overly rely on it. That's why people like me complain about "tunneling at 5 gens" because it's taking something that really should be a comeback mechanic, and basing the entire match around it."
Tunnelling at 5 gens is a cause of a massive skill difference. For this to happen a person needs to be found very fast, get downed, hooked and unhooked before a single gen pops.
This should never happen, especially in pubs, if matchmaking was way more fair. This is what I am talking about when I say we're balancing for progressively bigger skill gaps.
Yes, they will drop in MMR. That is actually a huge benefit of this for killers. Assuming the anti-tunnel mechanic actually does something meaningful for tunneling at 5 gens, instead of sweating their balls off every game to feel like they're drowning against survivors who are more skilled than they are… they should lose games until they settle into their
actualMMR bracket.I dont think it's intentional, but pay attention to your wording. "Actual mmr bracket", not "actual skill level".
I dont like bringing up comp dbd because it immediately causes screeching, but look at it for an example of fair equally skilled environment. People, a lot of which play both sides obscene amount of time, have to slug, camp and tunnel and they struggle nonetheless in spite of having to deal with much less things than they would normally.
As I said elsewhere, I dont think DbD needs to be balanced for comp, but it trying to be the literal opposite is not healthy either.
Making killers legally smurf and balancing them further and further around disproportionate skill input, floor and ceiling compared to survivors is a road nowhere. Sure, some killers can be like that, but not all and not all of them need to be railroaded into this with backwards game design.
The Devs specifically set out to make the game lean toward the killer, and every patch, every data point confirms that they've succeeded at this.
Lean towards killer where? Where survivors are not capable of even remotely realizing their potential? This is what Im talking about when I call the killer noob stomper role and say devs make it worse.
Here's what
reallymatters: 3 years of the devs making active changes to increase kill rates. Not because 60% is "fair" or "perfectly balanced", but because "they want the killer role to be more lethal". And all of those changes to the game have combined to do exactly that.I see that you can't respond to what Im saying so you just accuse me of being disingenuous which is kinda a self report.
Killer role is more lethal on average, this is accomplished by making the role easier to play and more reliant on survivor mistakes. The buffs you've listed are doing exactly that.
So I dont really see how any of that is good unless you enjoy the game being autopiloted for you and you dont care about the pvp part of the game.
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The phases are a way of showing when we intend for different features and improvements to become available in the game. This doesn't mean, however, that we're necessarily "done" with any given feature from this list. We continue to collect feedback and bring it back to the team, so further adjustments can be considered should they be needed.
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These are some of the most unknowledgeable, bad faith takes I think I have ever seen, my guy.
My best friend couldn't play the original DBD due to a seizure disorder, now she can. The Devs even got shown that the flashlights were a problem and too bright and problematic in that they prevented the Killer from really doing anything in their first iteration. Flashlights needed the change, I know you probably ain't been playing for a long time but they NEEDED to change, and frankly your us versus them attitude about this is ridiculous when the whole argument was about the game feeling bad when multiple flashlights were stacked like this. Don't make me get the MCote clip of him as Hag against the Korean team.
Medkits were changed because CoH meta was too strong, and the only reason they're not a problem with this heal meta is BECAUSE they were changed. You must not have been here for that Meta; it killed hit and run as a playstyle.
Toolboxes are the last item that needs a balance pass, they haven't been touched except to give them stronger Sabo to encourage less use of them for generator repairs. That, my friend, was in 2024. It still did nothing to them. Commodious was 180 charges before because the game used to be a hide and seek simulator where gens could be reduced quicker and people hid more, so Survivors genuinely needed more ammo. As Survivors got more efficient, the need for 180 charges was removed. I remember because I remember the patch coming out for that.
Pretty sure I remember you being here by multiple other names too, because you've been banned for posting biased drivel like this before.
Now, Survivors are once again more efficient, and not much has been done to change this. 2023-2024 DBD was basically the Survivor equivalent of how it felt to be a Killer for the game's first 6 years, do not come and tell me Survivors, who there are four of, need more. They don't.
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You're gonna need to explain why mccote specifically said that part of the fun of the game is not knowing the people you are playing with.
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That would be covered in my opinion of them underestimating comms.
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"Yes, they will drop in MMR. That is actually a huge benefit of this for killers. Assuming the anti-tunnel mechanic actually does something meaningful for tunneling at 5 gens, instead of sweating their balls off every game to feel like they're drowning against survivors who are more skilled than they are… they should lose games until they settle into their actual MMR bracket."
You do realize that this would singlehandedly kill the game, right? Do you know how many games you would need to lose in a row to "settle into their actual MMR bracket?" Dozens. Maybe Hundreds. Do you honestly think that anyone is going to sit down and lose 200 games in a row? Really? That's weeks or even months of just straight losing. If that's the route Behavior takes, people will just quit in droves and the game will die. Killers will quit because the game is a miserable slog where you just get destroyed every match and then tbagged at the gates, and then survivors will quit when queue times start hitting the double digits during peak hours and even longer during off hours. People are complaining NOW about 2-3 minute killer queues. Imagine if every survivor had to wait 15 minutes to get into a match. 20 minutes.
No, if BHVR actually wants to get people to their "non-tunnel" MMR, then they should reset everyone's MMR back to 0, then let the chips fall where they may.
EDIT: Not only that, but with how loose matchmaking is in this game, MMR might as well not even exist. Just saying. I'll backfill into four baby survivors one match, then a comp team the next. MMR is basically worthless.
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Well, they buffed kicks twice, once in 6.1 and again about a year and a half later. That's not the same as implying that they set it to 5% and never looked at it again, since they obviously continued to change the value over time, and reassessed this feature again later.
I included the +10 seconds on hook. So...
Crow changes were left intact, the timers were nerfed. This system still assumes you're afk by default, it just now takes longer to punish you for it. It's absolutely not "completely reverted" since things like locker hopping and item dropping are still gone.
I was here during the entire bot discussion. There were absolutely discussions about survivors "disconnecting to prevent on hook effects" like blood warden. Denying that that is now gone, because of bots, is simply trying to rewrite history. I'm not implying survivors don't benefit either, but since the bots have also been nerfed to be more stupid since they were introduced, they're often a liability also for the remaining survivors. (Leaving the bot standing while the last survivor player bleeds out is particularly popular, and not really a benefit to the survivor, either)
We were taking about base kit changes, so I left out perks. The only perks I even mentioned were specifically targeted to buff hit and run, as a base kit play style that was largely considered "dead" due to, mainly circle. I might've missed some things, as @jesterkind pointed out, but I'm also going off the top of my head and not bothering to spend an hour researching for a forum post.
If you're going to go out of your way to talk about things that aren't base kit, like perk balance, that's a completely different discussion.
The primary point still stands that the overall balance of the game has shifted in favor of killers. Every patch, change, base kit, perk, add-on, whatever, has overall increased the kill rate. It's not necessarily been a direct upward line, and there's been some up and down, but definitively, by design and intent, and by the data, killers are up way, way more.
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Not really, the interview i mention is specifically him talking about the point of the game is and i quote: "you don't know who the killer is, what their power is, or who you are playing with and what abilities they have" specifically he is talking about your teammates as a survivor, as in, you do not know who they are.
That is heavily implying that the game was designed with solo queue as the only option in mind, and SWF was later added after.
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Also, the list is definitely more impactful for survivors.
No, it's not. Not by any measure. And that's my point.
Kill rates have gone up, across the board. Maps smaller, chases have gotten shorter. These are things the devs have given us literal data for.
Survivors are dying more often as a result. That's been the impact and the reality. But that's not what you mean when you say this.
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Over the years they've said repeatedly they always planned for SWF, just that it wasn't ready at launch in 2016. Back then the game was only on Steam, and survs wishing to team up would mad dodge lobbies until they found each other, which worked because of the small player pool and things like Discord. But not long after they added in SWF.
There's no doubt they considered lack of information a big chunk of the game's appeal and design, particularly with many of the perks. But once they ported the game over to the consoles (most with built-in comms) they stepped though a door there was no coming back from. And even now around half of all survs are in some form of SWF, mostly duos.
Not considering comms in all they do has bitten them in the rear lots of times that's true. But there's not much that they can realistically do about it either.
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So mccote lied in that interview?
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Misspoke more likely or was speaking of design philosophy in-general. There were VERY few aura perks at that point.
We know they had SWF in the works prior to the launch of the game. Whether or not they expected the game to last ten years after said launch is another story, I think.
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"We know they had SWF in the works prior to launch of the game"
Proof of that? Everyone keeps saying it, but i find nothing, only thing i found was the interview i mentioned where he specifically states part of the fun of the game is not knowing who you are playing with.
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Should probably be stickied somewhere with how often people still claim SWF wasn't intended.
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I think they described the game as he saw it then, and how he thought it would be going forward. The players themselves and technology changed it for him.
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