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Killers Returning to Hook Every Match
Comments
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You're still abstracting out from the point really heavily here, especially with the sneaking up thing. If you don't think that's doable, alright, I'll cede that point to you - the killer cannot sneak up on good players. We'll take that out of the list of examples of what the killer can actively do to give themselves an advantage, that doesn't change anything about my point.
So, the only thing that's on track here is questioning whether the chase is actually easier, to which the answer is pretty much just "yes".
Your error in reasoning here is that you're imagining the best possible scenario for survivors, a scenario where the killer only gets a noticeable advantage instead of a huge one, and basing everything on that. So, let's take a step back and work from the actual first step here.Someone has just been unhooked, and the killer is chasing them.
Absent all other context, the killer has a massive advantage here. The survivor is injured, being a one-hit down after ten seconds, and they're extremely out of position, the killer's right on top of them. This, unambiguously and with no room for argument, is a chase that heavily tilts in the killer's favour.
There are some pieces of context that may lessen that. For instance, the survivor MIGHT have anti-tunnel perks, each of which individually makes the chase a little harder. OTR forces two hits for a down instead of one, though you still get the first one for free, DS can give them another shot at playing a tile if they're downed near enough to one, and so on. None of these make tunnelling as difficult as chasing the unhooker, of course, but they exist.They could easily NOT have those perks, though. Perks aren't basekit. If we follow that line of logic, we arrive at an unavoidable conclusion - every survivor player is only allowed to have three maximum perk slots or the killer can just tunnel them out of the match. That is, obviously, a bad outcome.
Another piece of context is that they MIGHT have teammates who'll bodyblock for them, but again, that just changes the value. Instead of an easy chase for free, the killer gets to occupy multiple survivors and dramatically slow down generators for free. Slightly better, but still free value for nothing.
They also could easily NOT have teammates that can/will bodyblock for them, though. Even if they're willing - which isn't guaranteed - they might not be in position to do it, if they're clear across the map. It's also heavily killer dependant, since some killers excel at downing multiple survivors grouped up.
If we follow THAT line of logic, we arrive at "The killer gets massive value either way, and if you play against Leatherface, Legion, Trickster, etcetera, they also win outright".It's important to remain focused on what matters in this conversation. The only relevant question is if killers get too much for chasing someone after they're unhooked, and there's no way around the fact that the answer is "yes". Directly or indirectly via the threat of it happening, killers can get massive impact for not actually doing anything to engineer it outside of being near the hook.
Obviously, beating strong survivors is hard. It should be - they're skilled players. While there's a small degree to which that is relevant when talking about how to FIX the issue of tunnelling, it's not relevant to whether there IS an issue with tunnelling.
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They were designed to combat camping but also inadvertently buffed the skill needed for macro. Also I said "skill needed for macro became basekit" not "all skill needed for macro". The fact is the hook state changes did NOT match the gen speed increase changes. For every 1 second hook time is 2 seconds of gen time on average especially early game. Not needing multiple people for saves means more people working on gens. Sure you can chase someone away but then they plop the unhook and heal in 8 seconds and walk across the map.
It's undeniable macro has been overall easier for survivor over the years.
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I mean… I guess?
But that's still just the balance problem that required two people for saves being fixed. At best, it had the indirect knock-on effect of being able to be more efficient on generators sometimes. Hell, you could argue that knowing to capitalise on that is macro skill, though that is a little flimsy.
I don't think macro overall is all that much easier to execute on, just to engage with. I think maybe the difference between us is that I don't consider no longer needing to handle balance problems as part of the macro skillset.
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I get it. A lot of killer players — probably most — just play chill. They just don’t care about their 4k.
That’s totally valid. Different playstyles, different perspectives. Many don’t even want to reach super high MMR (especially with basic M1 killers or other "weaker stuff") and start facing really strong SWFs. I understand that. It’s completely fair. For many, it’s just more fun to stay in a comfy low MMR range, where you can casually play for 2 hook everyone and still maybe win. I totally accept that.
It’s not fun when you start running into people who abuse every little thing and know exactly how to make your life miserable
ike they exactly know how to mave that the chase doesn´t start, to deny you a window blocker, or practicing every little “tech” (which often are just bugs or glitches) in KYF until they’ve perfected them. That kind of stuff can be rough, for sure, but still, I personally enjoy more the challenge of going up against good teams. The ones who understand how to counter my ability, how to play around my perks, who really give me a proper challenge — rather than teams that don’t even realize what killer I brought, don’t know how to counter anything, and basically just let the match “happen” while hoping gens go fast enough to carry them. Those matches don’t feel impressive or rewarding.
(What’s the point of ending up in constant -2000h player babylobbies against people who can’t really challenge me?)
and. … you already often get casuals mixed in during casual hours anyway. So what’s the point of those matches where both sides just go through the motions, and no one’s really ready to fight?
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So basically… the first advantage, being able to control a hook at all, is something the killer earns by winning that initial chase. That’s why I always say: folks, the first chase is the most important—no free hits, no pallet greed, better to drop pallets early and play it safe. That’s the point in the match where the survivor team is strongest.
Once the killer has a hook, they definitely have an advantage, but it’s an advantage they’ve earned at that moment.
The Killer has earned that advantage by winning the first chase… (and the first person still has all the resources on the map available, plus every good tile to use).
Is that advantage sometimes too big? Especially with hooks in certain areas? Yipp, I get you on that. Those situations happen, and you can kinda predict where a “sexy dead zone” hook might be, and try to push survivors into those spots. It’s costly for the team when it happens—and yes, sometimes it’s way too costly.
At that point, “too easy?” — I actually agree with you on that.
But that’s the huge issue with generally poor map design (not that the killer plays around the hook) —there shouldn’t be absolute death zones or on the flip side super OP survivor RNG. And y, I agree that tunneling is way easier on some killers, and it takes very little effort. But many of those killers are actually pretty weak overall and lack control otherwise.
On most maps, a Bubba can lose 4 generators in the first chase, and I don’t find that too wild.
And that idea of “the killer doesn’t have to put in much effort just because they’re near the hook” — give many killers ways to play differently and still win, without having to rely on survivor mistakes or slip-ups, and that changes the game a lot
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The thing is, what the killer earned is that hook. If they want more than that, they should have to earn it again- and there are paths to that in the game right now, like dragging a lot of the team off generators by capitalising on the hook and spreading pressure.
What the killer didn't earn is having a survivor out of the match already, and while they can't force that literally the way they used to be able to… they can get there much, much, much easier than by chasing anyone else.
It's not a map issue because there aren't that many maps in the game where survivors have that many resources to burn, and those maps tend to be the ones that are unbalanced for regular play. Bring those maps in line, weaken tunnelling substantially, and we're in a much better spot.
The advantage that's too big isn't based on where you are on the map, really, it's based on the fact that you're getting a substantially easier chase with little counterplay. There are only a handful of maps that make a difference here.The cold hard truth is, you do not have to leverage the easy chase that comes with tunnelling to win. It's just a lot easier to win that way, and can cause trouble learning the fundamentals if you rely on it too much- I have a whole post about that particular topic.
People like to say "give killers ways to play differently and still win", but those exist. They're just noticeably harder, because they're not unbalanced like tunnelling is.1 -
Tunneling doesn’t just give a small advantage, usually it gives a very strong one. It’s not always the way to go, sure. But often, situationally, it’s simply the most efficient and strongest tool you have.
And… do you think survivors really care about pressure on the hook? If you push that too hard, they just keep working on gens and come back last second. So where’s the pressure when you start chasing a fresh hook? None. The fresh hook is in chase, three survivors feel zero pressure and just laser-focus their gens. Then you get the next fresh hook and… what’s next? The same thing all over again.
Y.. i mean.. um.. eventually all the gens get done, and eventually the exits open if you don’t build pressure elsewhere.
And regardless: y, I get a lot of casual lobbies too for certain hours (which is why my kill rate is very high -because I usually don’t take much consideration for those lobbies ). But you never know what kind of really and even the worst bad players people bring into the game. Usually not because of skill, but stuff like, “Oh, who wants to get chased? I’ll just go down upper main and then let’s have fun with some sabo plays)
And y, even if you’re thinking "survs are super bad", “no need to sweat this one” and letting some bad players slide — you never know what’s coming next. Nah, not on my match.
So am I supposed to just let these “we’re trash but we’ve got our perks” squads go for free, just because I’m not allowed to pressure the hook once I’ve earned it? Or when anti-slugging kicks in? Nah. That’s Nurse time from my side the moment bhvr bring this changes.
(And y — if I hadn’t immediately slugged again, that Ace would’ve sabotaged the next hook right in front of me.)-1 -
This is a scoring game. The better you play - the better is a reward, and securing a kill asap will penalize you. Read the emblem descriptions.
And if you feel a need to assert a dominance, to prove, to “kill”, and perceive it literally - I strongly recommend you to see a therapist
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Tunnelling is the strongest and most efficient tool you have because it's unbalanced. If chasing the survivor fresh off a hook wasn't significantly easier, it wouldn't be strong or efficient.
(It's not efficient anyway, it's just unbalanced enough that the inefficiency is difficult to punish.)
As for pressure on the hook, yes, survivors care. If someone's on the hook and someone's in chase, someone else has to go get the save- they could wait it out, but if they do, they're risking you getting the down quicker than they expect, which puts you in an even bigger advantage.
Note that this isn't foolproof. Survivors get to try and outplay you here, which they should, because it's a video game. There may be overtuned tools on either side, but those would need to be addressed either way, they're not relevant here.So, bluntly, of course you're allowed to pressure the hook. I mean, you're allowed to tunnel right now, we're talking in hypotheticals here, but hypothetically, of course! You've got a wealth of options for gaining pressure from a hook. The sole one even in contention is the one that is also a balance problem.
Chase someone else, chase the unhooker, proxy camp to delay (but not prevent) the unhook by chasing whoever comes for a save, hell, you could even hypothetically try to target the unhooked survivor at a later point than immediately after the unhook. People forget that there's an entire video game that is covered by "not tunnelling".1 -
Uh? Emblems don’t mean anything anymore — that used to be a thing back when you’d actually drop all the way back to rank 20 each reset. Then they switched to - only 1 colors and removed depipping, and at that point the emblem system was basically dead.
It also used to take you like half the month to grind back up to rank 1 back the days. Nowadays? You hit that in less than a week, and it’s just a few extra bloodpoints at the end of the month. That’s all.Emblems have nothing to do with MMR or anything else. Though safe safe, I do think they should’ve expanded on the emblem system instead of scrapping it entirely.
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This feels like a big assumption. Just because people don't take thier role in a video game as though it's a God-ordained task doesn't mean they're intentionally keeping their MMR low so their games never become hard. The MMR doesn't even seem to matter much. I'm average at 60% kill rate and I get 4 clueless soloq noobs one match, then a psychotic 4-man with complimentary builds with specific team roles the next. My survivor 4-mans, though not sweaty but still competent, get paired with both baby killers and pros. My 3-mans acquire soloq fourths that range from people who probably just started playing and spend the game hiding to fantastic players who merge into the group beautifully. There is zero consistency. I will continue to assume that if it can't find anyone in your bracket quickly it will just put you with anyone. I played a trial on Knight recently--didnt even have him unlocked--and landed myself two p100s. I didn't have a grasp on his abilities at all, but they sure did.
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ok. i´m always ready to share my pov.
Marigold was the first person I found. She wasn’t even good — free hit right off the bat.
Yeah, picking up there was a mistake, and the flashy save cost me. (I knew someone was there, but I had to risk it — otherwise she would’ve made it to a pallet.)
But sure — first chase, and nearly 3 gens done already. What now? Defend gens?What am I even supposed to do — try to build up Condemned while they just slam out the last two gens for free?
“Chase someone else.”
“Chase the unhooker.”
“Proxy camp to delay the unhook.”
“Go after the unhooked survivor later instead of right after.”Okay, cool. And what exactly would that have gotten me?
Chase David, who just wanted to show me how sexy the main building is?
Port away and go after Alan, chillin’ by shack?
Or maybe try to actually defend gens against an efficient squad?Please, do tell.
I’m learning.
The big bad tunneling killer is very open to learning.-1 -
t certain times of day, I actually agree with you. During typical casual hours (like afternoons or around 6 PM), you really do get a mix of everything — including a lot of kinda bad SWFs trying to get away with cheap stuff. But I mostly play EU nighttime (after midnight), and at that point you tend to run into the same players over and over again. You’ll still get some mixed lobbies in between, sure, but y — an entire evening can definitely look like that.
A few mixed lobbies here and there — but then it’s the same SWFs again and again. And… who’s surprised? Same story every time. Sometimes there’s that one random who ends up getting picked off first, usually without even the plan to fokus him. He just doesn’t have the callouts or the timing for leaving early like the 3-person squad that probably filled his lobby.
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So FYI I've only watched up to the point that Marigold dies because that's, I feel, most relevant and I don't have unlimited time, I do apologise.
The first thing we need to note is that this is explicitly a bad position you should be attempting to avoid. That's not to say this is a bad example - these things happen, it makes this quite a good example in some ways - but it is important to note that a good chunk of any advice anyone would give here is preventative, not reactive.
Y'know, don't be in this position. Don't get flashy saved, don't overcommit to that chase, etc. This is the situation you were in, so this is the situation we'll respond to - it just needs to be noted.The second thing to note is that you're playing a very weak killer. That's not to say you shouldn't be doing that either, but rather to note that there are a handful of killers who just have fewer options. That said, Sadako has options here too, so let's get into those.
While watching this I was initially thinking of a bullet pointed list - feint chasing Marigold and hit David while he's out of position, leave Marigold on the ground and harass whoever's going for the save, proxy camp Marigold to chase David before he gets the unhook - but honestly I think I can sum it up more neatly than that.
This is a hyper aggressive flashlight squad (at least, David is), so use that. They're going to put themselves out of position, it happens multiple times in this video; David was giving you the freest hits of all time, and it's only because of Sadako's lack of collision that it wasn't the best call to hit him and then use Marigold as bait. Broadly speaking, against teams like that, if you couldn't tunnel for whatever reason, that's how you do it. They're going to get cocky, they're going to give you free hits.Slugging is also quite a good call against teams like this. Whatever BHVR's doing about slugging in the future, they've at least said that slugging in situations like this is something they're trying to preserve, so that should hopefully remain an option going forward. They want flashy saves, ergo they'll be lingering around near a down, ergo you can get some free hits on them that way.
You mention defending gens but honestly I wouldn't recommend it. They're not your objective and you can't really stall them that much anymore, it's almost always better to focus on survivors and only use gens as bait.Obviously, these teams are going to be hard to beat. They're good players, they should be. Hard doesn't mean impossible, though.
Also again, a good chunk of playing against teams like this is trying not to be in this situation to begin with. Also also, again, part of the ideal outcome here is Sadako getting buffed/reworked to be better at handling this; multiple other killers wouldn't break a sweat here and that is a problem with Sadako.(As an aside what was the music playing at the start? I liked it)
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y well, that situation just happens. I start the match → I find someone. That’s always the situation. (The match wasn’t even that long.)
The only way to “avoid” that position is by dropping the first chase, but in my opinion, that only makes sense if the structure is really strong. Avoiding that first chase? I mean… she was super out of position.
Yeah, I should’ve avoided the flashy save (and brought better perks instead of meme stuff). That was a mistake. A costly one.But: David gave me a lot. He made a huge mistake on survivor side (just by not doing gens).
And ye, while tunneling I actively used Sadako’s lack of collision to my advantage so David couldn’t bodyblock me.
Any hit on David would’ve just meant free distance for Marigold, and I wanted her down.
I think if he got a clean bodyblock in there, that would’ve cost me too much.I mean, it’s all speculation, but if I had slugged Marigold and gone for David instead, maybe I’d get one hit, maybe, and then he’s out. And then there’s the risk that she getsnack up again with Unbreakable—or someone comes in with For the People and Buckle Up or whatever. All that good stuff we’ve all seen.
Or suddenly I’ve got two people with flashies trying to deny my pickup while someone else slams the last gens.
I’d rather just take the kill, make it a 1v3 situation. Because once 4 people are back on their feet… you’re not holding that.
At least not with a weak killer.Sure, a 1-2k might still be doable, but if I go in as killer, I want my 4k.
(Doesn’t mean I’ll always get it, of course.).. the song: slipknot - if rain is what u want :D
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But y... as soon as efficient survivors get a bit of breathing room and feel no pressure, an average match goes for like 10 minutes.
Where exactly are you supposed to find the time for multiple hooks and multiple chases?
And let’s be honest — it’s usually not the killer who’s setting that pace.People forget that there's an entire video game that is covered by "not tunnelling".
But this isn’t just something killers alone decided. Absolutely not. A lot of survivor groups have figured out that maximum efficiency wins the match. Survivors don’t play for longer rounds, more interaction, or fun, extended chases anymore. They stick to gens until the very last second and are totally fine giving free hits, free downs — sometimes even just straight-up committing to a gen right in front of you.
But then what? The killer is supposed to... what, be nice and completely ignore the hook? Be nice and go after the freshly unhooked survivor instead? I’m just tired. So tired. And honestly, I’m scared of any upcoming changes related to this.
edit: idk..
When I read stuff like that…
That the killer shouldn’t go back to the hook, that the killer should let a free recovery happen under the hook, that the killer is supposed to overlook everything—
but survivors can and should do this, can do that, are supposed to… and actually get away with it…I…
I really think the forums aren’t good for me.
I start up DBD, pick Nurse, and just go do unnecessarily unpleasant and very dirty things—
just because…
yeah, because—why even not, at this point?Post edited by oecrophy on-1
