My problem with the 60% kill rate target

Maybe if you came at it with this attitude from the start, nobody would've assumed otherwise.

Nah, I... I can’t anymore. I’ve read too many things I probably shouldn't have.
Maybe I’m just tired. Maybe I’m mad. I don’t even like “fighting” —but i have the feeling I have to fight.

And I don’t feel the need to speak for Survivors.
I feel like I constantly have to fight for the Killer side.

What are Survivors about to get?
Better MMR.. all the other upcoming stuff

Anti-slug.

Anti-tunnel.

More “basekit protections”… more restrictions.

What do Killers get?

Nothing. Or worse — the same restrictions, but turned against them.

It feels like everything is slowly turning into anti-Killer.

And I know exactly what many of my matches will look like once I'm not "allowed" to slug or tunnel anymore.

(I assume tunnel will still be the most efficient option in many cases — so people will continue doing it anyway, just while being punished harder by design.)

But what I do know is:
Against strong, well-coordinated groups?
A 4K will be impossible, unless they mess up badly.

And yes — I go into my matches with one goal:
I want my 4K. That’s what I fight for.

Y.. I`m the evil Killer. I know ..

but..

Survivors fight too. They sweat. They don’t give you anything for free. And that’s fine. That’s how it should be.

But when anti-slug, anti-tunnel, and eventually 50/50 balance people ask her for becomes the norm…

Then it feels like Killers are being forced to accept:

"If your opponents are really good — you’re not supposed to win."

Meanwhile, those same top-tier SWFs?
They always have a reliable win — as long as they play clean.
4 out, 3 out, doesn’t matter. They control the game.

And to make the stats look “balanced,” I’m supposed to enjoy stomping bad soloQ, casual SWFs, or random lobbies just to keep the average win rate in check?

Just to make the 50/50 charts work?
Even if that means I never have a real chance against the coordinated teams?

That’s what this is heading toward, isn’t it?

Anti-slug.
Anti-tunnel.
And on top of that, 50/50 balance?

but.. BUT:

I don’t want the satisfaction of dominating bad groups.
I don’t care about those matches.

I want a shot against the groups where every single player has thousands of hours and knows what they’re doing.

That’s where I want to be challanged.
That’s where I want a chance to fight — not a guarantee to lose.

It’s not about me feeling “uncomfortable” when it’s not all about me.
It’s about having basically no chance against some groups with the upcoming changes — and right now, it’s already a damn tough fight.

I agree… some maps are just way over the top — not because they’re big, but because of the missing pallets and lack of filler tiles.
But just because 2 or 3 maps are bad for Survivors, that’s no reason to call everything 50/50 or to sugarcoat all upcoming changes.

And smaller maps? Survivors actually benefit from those sometimes just as much as killers do.

(It’s always nice to have at least one teammate on a gen nearby — for a bit of cover, a fast bodyblock, a quick flashlight save, or just turning a situation into a "down into a palli moment. " That kind of support is something you really miss as a survivor squad on those still overly large maps)

Hiding? What good group even does that in 2025 anymore?

And gen regression?

"Back in the day, gens took about 10 seconds difference

But old slown perks were significantly stronger — like, way stronger

You can definitely feel the negative impact on killers today.

Survivors got a huge buff here too — let’s not pretend they didn’t.

And the biggest difference: that all came with MMR or shortly after. MMR doesn’t work perfectly, has a lot of flaws and issues, but do you know how easy rounds were compared to now? Against many groups it was just “chase someone else.” That was the main advice back then.That strategy basically died around the time MMR was introduced.

It can still work today, but it’s a huge gamble.
Back then, average groups were way, way, WAY more mixed.

Earlier you mentioned that it's a benefit to killers that they are 100% in control and don't split responsibility 4-ways with strangers.

Huh, did you not get the math? If every survivor in a group puts in their 25%, they reach 100% together (even a bit more, which is fine) — while the killer gives their 100% solo. To me, that’s almost a balanced scale, maybe even slightly tipped in favor of survivors. Which is okay, so the balance in 3v1 situations doesn’t completely break in favor of the killer

And no one likes option A. Which is why the developers can openly state that the game is balanced in favour of killers, why the stats constantly show killers coming out ahead, why we've got winstreaks in the hundreds (Sometimes thousands), and killers are STILL insisting they just can't win at all.

I also have a really high kill rate. I’ve tried to explain why — because the 100% vs 100% between both sides… it’s like: many survivor groups don’t play at full strength. One person doing “whatever” is already a 75 vs 100 (from my side, the moment I go all in) for me. And yes, I can win. I win very often. I have a chance against super strong groups. But that’s only because I have lots of tools survivors want to take away. I have my 80+ kill rate because I don’t always get those 100 vs 100 situations, where both sides play at full strength, but instead 1-2 survivors drop off and it becomes like 50 vs 100 while I’m still going all in and give form me side the full 100 percent… and because of all the tools I can use — like slugging, tunneling — all the stuff that’s supposed to get taken away with the changes.

But if that’s taken away, .. (anti slug, anti tunnel, more balance into a 50/50) then you have nothing left against strong teams... so basically, you’ve got really nothing.
With most killers, you’ll just be standing there watching this team win — nothing you can do about it.

The counterpoint for a tactic getting butchered is to point out that no one uses that tactic since its butchering anyway. Love that.

Nah, that’s not what I meant. That tactic just isn’t the most efficient. Back then stealth was easier because two people could carry the round while the rest did stealth stuff. But even then, pure efficiency and a more aggressive playstyle were the strongest way for survivor groups to win fast and clean. There were already super efficient teams .

Today, most teams understand this — whether good or bad — pure efficiency wins the round, and sometimes it’s even necessary with the pallet count now. Back then you could still compensate stealth (because you had double or triple the resources, better tiles, better windows). That playstyle was never strong and always meme imho. (but more possible because of the unbalanced amout of reccources u had)

But I was talking about good, efficient groups — not meme playstyles that waste so much time. (because of the strong loops, good tiles, and the abundance of strong pallets, you simply had time for everything back then — all kinds of things. Including a lot of stealth.)

But we're not talking perks. We're talking -basekit-.

Smaller maps are usually an advantage for survivors in the base kit — good teamwork can really hit hard there, good teamplay, nice blodyblocks.. which is also needed given the amount of pallets we have today.

And y.., back then survivors in the base kit were way stronger if they were good and used everything on the map right. But you gotta remember how unbalanced that was...

But killers also had strong basekits.. like the pre-nerf Spirit (or prayer beads (but we dont have to talk about the addons, basekit was much much MUCH stronger too), Huntress with multiple one-shot hatchets, insta-saw Billy, the old Nurse... even Trapper was way more favored on the old maps with the old grass.

edit: but yes.

survivor basekit used to be way stronger — so strong that the game felt more like a 1v1 in chase rather than a 4v1, where the killer actually needs strong advantages, downs, and hooks to create pressure on the whole team.

I mean.. survivors were just super boosted in the old days. A lot of groups simply didn’t understand that, and instead enjoyed other aspects of the game — they played more stealthy and never fully used their potential or all the tools they had available.

so idk.

Should we really be using some of that wildly unbalanced stuff from th past as an argument for today’s issues in the game?

The moment we are lookin in the past:

I mean, back in 2016 I could literally see straight through shack — it was so full of holes that you always knew if and when the killer turned around. With some old builds I could fully heal before the killer even finished wiping their weapon. With the old Brand New Parts, we could pop 4 gens in 30 seconds and then all escape through hatch as a 4-man 1-2 minutes in match.

A lot of stuff back then was super broken. Unfair. Totally unbalanced. And it got removed for exactly that reason.

Then MMR came along, and they finally the devs realized how broken their game actually was. (the loops, the tiles, the maps) With update 6.1, the necessary balance changes finally began.

but… beside this: DBD had a completely different pace back then i n most of the matches — different playstyles, different tactics. You really can’t compare it all that easily.

It’s never that simple to look at things from just one side or to idealize one side over the other.

Nostalgia is nice, I feel it often too.
But idealizing the past is dangerous.

Precisely what I'm talking about.

If you lose as survivor, there's three other survivors you can blame, before you have to resort to blaming the game, or yourself.

As killer, if you lose, you can blame yourself, or do exactly this: Just insist there was nothing you could've done about it, and it's the game's fault.

.. just wanna say first: as a survivor, I always look at myself first before blaming teammates. And at the overall situation.
Yup, it’s easy to just blame the team or the killer, but I know that a lot of it often comes down to me — like overextending loops, being greedy, the classic “one more loop” or “I can definitely make that pallet” stuff. So yea, lots of sloppy plays on my end sometimes.

That's caused this particular argument to take shape where a bunch of forum killers are insistent it is physically impossible to win, with none of them having the skill to back such a claim up. And it's really tiresome to see this argument regurgitated over and over and just drilled in like dogma.

It's Option B: Blame the game. And then demand it gets validated.

hh— uhm... big um,
Why does it always turn into a “you just suck, just get good” thing the second you lose as killer and say there was nothing you could do?

Like, ye— as killer I’m apparently supposed to play at 100% perfection at all times.
Never miss a shot, hit validation always flawless, can’t lose a single 50/50, gotta win every mindgame...

Meanwhile… how many “I misplayed but got bailed out by X” mechanics do survivors have again on their side?

Yeah, killers have strong tools too right now…
And sure, some matches feel straight-up unwinnable — no denying that.
But most of the time, you still have some chance — even if it’s just a tiny one.
And still, you need survivors to make mistakes. That’s just reality.

But if we’re really talking about 50/50 balance, and it’s always like
“we need this, and we need that to make it fair,”
and then you stack on anti-camp, anti-slug, anti-tunnel, anti-everything…

Come on. Seriously?

Are killers just supposed to stand there and watch every halfway decent group that understands the game escape… and just be okay with that?

So why did it cop so many nerfs, then?

I’m not on the dev team, obviously, but based on my experience, I can make a pretty strong guess as to why:

It’s probably just in favor of healthier overall game balance.

Against a stealth group, you always had way more time. Those matches were usually the easier ones.
Because let’s be honest — if you're hiding, you're not doing generators.

The most efficient thing in DBD is constant progress: gens, gens, gens.
Stealth players are often the ones who are just kinda “doing nothing” while the killer applies pressure elsewhere.

And as killer, I know where my pressure comes from — I’d rather get someone hooked and immediately start a tunnel than waste time checking bushes, lockers, and dark corners.
That’s where the hook into the direct tunnel comes in.
And if that’s happening, and the rest of the team is still deep in stealth mode with no gen pressure or proper support, that group basically dies because of stealth.

That was always the case, even back then. You always had the option to just ignore overly stealthy teams and not get pulled into that pacing.
The only difference was: there were just way more resources back then. Like, a lot more.
Sometimes triple what we have now — I remember counting 32 pallets on one map once.

So, the person getting chased for their life used to have way more tools to actually last in that situation.
But with all the killer buffs, all the pallets slowly getting removed, the strong windows being permanently shut (or literally replaced by open doors),
stealth kinda got nerfed indirectly too —
Because with every patch leaning more and more toward killer-favoritism, it became more important than ever that every survivor contributes efficiently to the team’s objective.
Everyone has to bring their 25%. And up, sometimes that also means sacrificing your own hook stage — because even hook states are a resource.

And especially in solo queue, that became a huge problem.
The more stealthy the match was, the more likely you'd have people doing the “super stealth for personal escape” playstyle…
…while the rest of the team slowly dies.

Yes, I know, that's the only thing you guys ever talk about. The 'literally unbeatables', the top 0.01%, the Team Eternals. Screw the rest of the game, let it all burn down, but If I, as a dead-average killer player, have to lose one match? That's awful, and survivors should lose more to compensate.

But yup, I’ll say it too:
It’s physically impossible to win if the survivor team plays perfectly.
Zero mistakes.
But… nobody does that. No one.
Not even Team Eternal, since you brought them up as an example.
Too much happens in a single match, and people are human. Humans make mistakes.

And that’s exactly where killer have their chance — they have stronger tools to capitalize on mistakes.
I’m totally fine admitting that if a survivor team plays 100%perfect, , I’ve got no shot.

But that just… doesn’t happen.
Everyone makes mistakes. I make them as killer — and so do survivors.

So yipp I'm pressing Ready against Team Eternal on the current state. (Yep, I’m from EU too.)

(cuz i knew, - mistakes can happen. and atm i can caitalize)

But with all the stuff that’s being asked for lately —
more 50/50 balance, more comeback mechanics, more of this, more of that…
and then throw in anti-slug, anti-tunnel, and whatever else is coming…

Like, how?

And it’s not even about the top 4% .. (or like u said 1% .)
if we change all this thinks like asked: It’s about your average groups — the ones who understand the game just enough and can run in a straight line for more than 3 seconds.
Even those start becoming a problem under these kinds of proposed changes.
Even when they misplay a lot. Even when they play badly.

But hey, we keep that survivor-side escape rate stat alive by matching killers against super weak, insta-down lobbies…
So the numbers still work.

Yeah... "just play better."
I know the line.
I’m tired.

No it didn't! Yeah, they had faster gens, but they also lacked a lot of protection that they have now. Swivel hooks, +10 second hang time, basekit BT, gen kick limit. Survivor basekit didn't use to be 'way' stronger at all, they've sidegraded more than downgraded.

Killers got way, way more powerful with a series of deliberate basekit buffs and nerfs to survivors.

But all of that, the entirety of this text:

Uhh... but like— every map, every window, and every pallet was part of the survivor base too, right?
And… what did we actually have back then?
Sorry, but I had so much "stuff" that protected me as a survivor, I could literally hold the killer for 5 gens sometimes— if he actually tried.
(Those days are just gone now… well, at least once the killer knows what they're doing.)

Back then, survivors were way stronger in their basekit.
There were massive nerfs over time — especially to pallets, windows, and the overall structure of tiles.
That alone heavily nerfed the survivor base.

And yeipps— killers were made weaker too, for a while.
But then MMR hit and get involved… and it showed very clearly:
The moment you get a few good and efficient people together in a match, those 5-gen games stop being a rare mixed-lobby fluke — and start becoming the norm.

So … all these changes were honestly healthy balance decisions.
They just made it more and more obvious how broken the game used to be in favor of survivors in old DBD.

Is all a distraction from how wrong you are to claim that killers got 'nothing'. You can't say 'Killers got nothing', and then when I point out a washing list of improvements made to killers, retort with 'remember when survivor was strong?'

Is all a distraction from how wrong you are to claim that killers got 'nothing'. You can't say 'Killers got nothing', and then when I point out a washing list of improvements made to killers, retort with 'remember when survivor was strong?'

Huh? I never said killers got nothing. They’ve received plenty of buffs — and many of them were important to actually bring the game into a more balanced state.
You're taking things out of context here.

What I did say is that with things like anti-slug, anti-tunnel, etc. coming, killers are getting nothing to compensate.
Not that they’ve never received anything in the past. (Same goes for survivors, by the way.)

But what we got were necessary balance changes. That has nothing to do with the fact that what’s coming next is about to throw the whole thing back into a completely lopsided state — unless killers also get something in return.

You were referring to that like:

Killers have gotten so much in 6.1 and onwards. Hatch nerf, Medkit nerfs, toolbox nerfs, improved gen regression, shorter on-hit sprint, shorter on-hit cooldown, quicker actions, smaller maps, hiding nerfs, updates to weaker killers...

But the second the devs turn their attention to survivors, 'killers get nothing!'.

After almost a decade, the one biggest complaint from the survivor side might finally get addressed, and forum killers pull out the 'I am feel uncomfortable when we are not about me?' meme.

I am feel uncomfortable when we are not about me?' meme

And I responded that it’s not about feeling uncomfortable — it’s about the fact that even with all the balance changes that favored killers, we still can’t create a situation where upcoming changes or calls for “more 50/50 balance” don’t end up pushing the game back into a state where, as killer, you just can’t do anything again.

You were the one that tossed in CoBruption meta to claim that killers' gen regression hadn't improved.

Yup... so what do we even have today? Scourge Hook? You need hooks for that. Only top killers get those quickly and consistently. Good teams don’t give them to you that for free. (Sure, in weak lobbies you’ll get Scourge value after Scourge value while they keep feeding you...)

Buthalf decent players? They hold first chase longer, don’t rush for instant unhooks, and keep the pressure going, denying you tons of perk value that only bad or casual groups hand over.
Dead Man’s? Good players don’t just instantly drop every gen. They tap an “unimportant” gen somewhere to block some irrelevant one for 30 seconds, giving the team breathing room.
Deadlock? Casuals just sit next to the blocked gen for 30 seconds... while efficient teams just rotate and push another gen 30 meters away.
Pop? Got massively nerfed.

etc..

Did they, or did the fodder just quit?

Because what I started to suspect after killers got buff after buff after buff, only to turn around and become MORE insistent that the game is unwinnable, is that the game didn't actually get harder…

There's just fewer weak opponents left. The party petes were starting to quit. So killers go up against better opponents.

And do the killers then adapt to better opponents by, themselves, improving their gameplay?

Or…

With most killers, you’ll just be standing there watching this team win — nothing you can do about it.

Did they pick Option B?

Y, on this journey, a lot of casuals have either quit or gotten way better. It’s a good thing because survivors now actually have to improve their gameplay—no more easy rounds. Makes it harder for killers, but the game’s more balanced and skill-based overall.

Did they pick Option B?

And … about Option B — how exactly are killers supposed to win when matches are already super close, and then all these changes people want (anti-camp, anti-slug, more comeback mechanics, 50/50 balance) get added? I’m genuinely curious.

Now apply that to killer.

sure, happy to

It’s really not that hard, right?
If I play badly as survivor — go too YOLO, misjudge something, get too greedy or take risky plays, mess up my chase — then yup, the consequence is that I’ll probably die that round.

Sure, I can still try to recover, give it 100% in the next chase, especially if I notice my team is actually trying... but in the end: I don’t know how long I’ll last. I don’t know how long I can keep playing clean. If I make a mistake — it happens. Sorry, team. I just hope I bought you enough time.

Same goes for killer:
If I misjudge things, mess up my chases, lose too many mindgames, fall for dumb stuff — the natural consequence is that I’ll probably lose that match.

That’s just how it is, right?

But you don't. You're happy to demand better from your survivor gameplay, but NOT from your killer gameplay. So you instead resort to the argument that you -cannot- win, even though you obviously can.

I’m not demanding anything — who am I to make demands? I don’t expect anything from survivors or killers. Play however you want. Go for it. Have fun with whatever works for you.

But you also can’t expect to win if there are a lot of misplays — whether you’re playing killer or survivor. That’s just how it is.
I mean, at the end of the day, DBD is a PvP game.
I’ll still give someone a headshot in tarkov or hunt:showdown even if they’re clearly memeing.

One.

The hatch.

Everything else has nothing to do with 'misplays'. Getting tunneled, camped or slugged are not things that are in the survivor's control, and therefor they cannot be their 'misplays'. They are things that the killer unilaterally decides.

And no, going down is not a 'misplay' either. You are not supposed to hold chase indefinitely. That's why infinites were removed, why Bloodlust is still here.

kinda sweet that you brought up hatch… <3 because, well… hatch is actually one of the few things I do still have quite a bit of control over as killer.
Hatch is something I can deny you in most matches. If I want it, it’s usually mine. That situation tends to lean heavily in the killer’s favor.
I was more thinking about other stuff, though.

But yup, totally agree:
If I tunnel you, it means I want you. I’m not half-committing.
You can’t really control that — you’re gonna go down, just like in any regular chase.
The only difference is, you’re starting that chase already injured (which sucks for you and benefits me),
and the tunnel just keeps dragging you closer to death hook.

So at that point, it’s super important your team is doing gens — or at least trying to take hits or do something.
It won’t fully stop what’s happening, but it can buy a lot of valuable time.
And your team really needs to use that time while you’re the one getting tunneled.

Slugging and proxy camping, though?
You can usually deal with that a bit better — there's more you can do in those situations compared to tunneling.

In the end, it’s a matter of how much your team pushes forward, because the timer is ticking.

Gu... I've seen the whole 50/50 balance and more comeback mechanics thing mentioned multiple times in this thread already — and I was specifically referencing that in my comment.
(You can scroll through the replies I was responding to if you're unsure what I meant.)

For example,..

“Fully agree with you, there should be catch-up mechanics implemented to prevent the easy snowballs.”

Or this line:

“In theory, these snowball matches would be much less frequent if the kill rate target was a fair 50%.”

xcept 50/50 balance, comeback mechanisms and 'more of this, more of that' aren't on the menu.

The devs blatantly came out and stated that they balance the game to make survivors lose more and this is, what, the second thread in YEARS, and it's not even arguing for 50/50!

The only thing people have been asking for is anti-camp, anti-tunnel, anti-slug, to limit the way in which the killer can just bar people from gameplay and ruin the game for everyone else. Survivors have been losing for ages, and the only complaint is about HOW they lose, not THAT they lose.

I keep hearing that survivors have been losing for years.
But whenever I ask people for their stats, it often turns out they have a solid 50–60% escape rate.
I mean… maybe I’m just asking the “wrong” people, I don’t know.

But yup, i mean.. as i said already.. stats don’t tell the full story in my opinion — they don’t show what actually happens during the match.

And sure… anti-camp, anti-tunnel, anti-slug — I understand the desire for that.
But then… where is the killer supposed to get their pressure from?
Or is pressure only allowed in insta-down lobbies now?

t's a motte-and-bailey.

First you try to take the more reasonable position that the game is unwinnable when survivors play absolutely immaculately. But then you try to swap out the 'immaculate survivor team' for a 'halfway decent group'.

And that's where your argument becomes fallacious, because while the top 1% of swiffers can be argued to be unbalanced, possibly even 'unbeatable', you can't make the same argument for 'halfway decent groups', since the vast majority of them get routinely stomped. We -know- survivors, across the board, are losing the majority of their matches. Even the high MMR 4-man swiffers of nightmares do not average an escape rate over 50%.

But you don't need them to, because you set up the perfect DBD gods in a hypothetical 4-man team of doom and then go on to suggest that Bucko & Pals with 300 hours between them are exactly as problematic.

It's a motte-and-bailey. Flipper between two different positions and pretend they're the same.

The 'halfway decent group' is not a problem for a competent killer.

First you try to take the more reasonable position that the game is unwinnable when survivors play absolutely immaculately. But then you try to swap out the 'immaculate survivor team' for a 'halfway decent group'.

That’s not exactly what I said.

what I said was (to quote myself):

But yup, I’ll say it too:

It’s physically impossible to win if the survivor team plays perfectly.

Zero mistakes.

But… 

nobody

 does that. No one.

Not even Team Eternal, since you brought them up as an example.

And that’s exactly where killer have their chance — they have stronger tools to capitalize on mistakes.
I’m totally fine admitting that if a survivor team plays 100%perfect, , I’ve got no shot.

But that just… doesn’t happen.
Everyone makes mistakes. I make them as killer — and so do survivors.

So yipp I'm pressing Ready against Team Eternal on the current state. (Yep, I’m from EU too.)

(cuz i knew, - mistakes can happen. and atm i can caitalize)

But with all the stuff that’s being asked for lately —
more 50/50 balance, more comeback mechanics, more of this, more of that…
and then throw in anti-slug, anti-tunnel, and whatever else is coming…

I also said that I’d currently hit ready against any team. For now. In the current state of the game.
Because — and I’ve said this before — killers can still heavily capitalize on team mistakes.
But that includes all the stuff a lot of survivors don’t like: tunneling, camping, slugging.

And my final point was this:
If these upcoming changes really go through — where killers can’t tunnel, camp, or slug effectively anymore, and they don’t get anything in return — then killers will be powerless.
And we’ll be forced to just sit there and watch even "mediocre, average teams" escape.
Maybe hope for 1–2 kills at best.

your answer to this was just:

But the second the devs turn their attention to survivors, 'killers get nothing!'.

That's still a terrible argument, because the entirety of the past couple of years, that massive care package IS the compensation for the upcoming changes.

Prior to 6.1, it was generally considered acceptable to buff killers in exchange for getting rid of tunnelling, camping and slugging. Then 6.1 rolled around, we got the killer buff part, and we never got the compensatory anti-tunnel, anti-camp, anti-slug that was supposed to come with it. We got slap-on-the-wrist basekit BT and a NERF, of all things, to what was at the time the ONLY anti-tunnel.

The entire washing list of killer buffs were supposed to be balanced out by anti-slug, anti-tunnel, anti-camp, but those changes were delayed. Now we're finally (potentially) getting the compensation that survivors were supposed to get.

It's like two kids both being promised a present, kid A gets theirs a week early, and then when kid B finally gets theirs, kid A throws a tantrum that B got something and 'they never did!'

You're the one ripping things out of context. You can't argue that these changes are being made against a blank slate and just ignore multiple years of shifting the balance further in favour of killers, just so you can demand extra goodies when survivors finally get parity.

Uh, what you’re waiting for has already happened a long time ago?

all of that actually happened—just like BHVR promised. They never said they would completely remove tunneling, camping, or slugging. BHVR delivered what they said they would.

Patch 6.1 came out in July, and pretty early on, the promised anti-tunnel change arrived in the form of free bt. Later on, the anti-camp mechanic—the self-unhook near the hook—was added as well.

This already happened ages ago.

Everything that was promised at that point has already long made its way into the game.

That is proven by literally nothing, and all data and statistics point in the opposite direction. What you're talking about is forum killer dogma. It's a story with nothing to back it up, and no one is allowed to question it.

proof 1:

normal "not this good average" group.kinda meme perks,.. No impressive chases, no top 1% player performance you like to lean on. Michaela makes a huge mistake by giving insane double pressure with a down right near the hook.
Yup, slugging not allowed, right? Camping neither? And tunneling definitely not. Yup. how so?

2.)

good SOLOQ lobby..

Not many mistakes on the survivor side, but got heavily hit by the killer-sided event mode + a really, really bad survivor map + in the end an overcommitment on the cover on the Sable.

3)

Super close draw. It would’ve been a win if David hadn’t wasted so much time with the whole “I chase you, killer” stuff and instead focused on gens after a certain point.

That means the game didn't get harder at all, you're just not left with any survivors at your own skill level because they all got 'balanced' out of the game.

Skill level? DBD isn’t rocket science. Eventually, almost everyone in the lobby knows the important stuff, just hopes for a good map + good RNG, a lucky win or loss in a 50/50, some advantage for their side—and just grinds it out.

By improving.

Or, potentially, by going up against survivors of their own skill level again once they return to the game.

Either way, you may have to deal with losing the occasional match. But at least it won't be as bad as the devs saying you -should- lose the majority of your matches, and people on the forums then telling you that you should lose -even more-.

Sure… you can always improve.
But skill in DBD just isn’t rewarded that much.
What’s the point of perfecting Huntress crossmap shots if you get no real value out of them and the survivor is already back on their feet by the time you get there?

DBD, on both sides, is more about efficiency and pressure than raw "skill".

I’ve been playing pretty actively since almost the release — +10,000 h —
so what kind of survivors am I supposed to face that truly “match my skill level,” just so I’m allowed to have an opinion on whether anti-slug, anti-tunnel, anti-camp, or a general shift toward a more 50/50 state is good for the game ?

At what point do I have the right to form an opinion about the fact that the stats are difficult — not because of lack of “survivor goodies” — but rather because of what I personally see as the core issue (which I’ve already outlined in this thread): the matchmaking system being far too lenient or in some cases outright non-functional?

Like I already tried to explain in my post about the 25+25+25+25 vs. 100 from the killer's side...

and no one is allowed to question it.

Sure, anyone can ask. Go ahead — why not? Just ask.
But if you say “It’s a story with nothing to back it up” … then what exactly do you want from my side? What are you expecting? Just ask. Ready to share.

Mind showing me how you win against people who kind of understand the game — without using any pressure tools whatsoever?

But for some reason people mistakenly think that camping and tunneling are also optimal pressure. It's pressure on one person, yes, but not on the team. The camping or tunneling killer isn't leaving the survivor in time out on a hook and going to push someone off gens, they're standing around doing effectively nothing and hoping that the survivor team is either uncoordinated or inexperienced and panics.

Are you talking about the matches I shared?
Which specific situation are you referring to?

Do you mean the Trapper match when you say “standing around”?
The one where the slug was near hook?

Leave the hook and the slug? For what, exactly?
A free unhook and a free pickup — just to kick a gen once — all while letting the full team reset?

That would've been a guaranteed loss.

or how do you see the chance to turn this into a win?

And how exactly are you supposed to win without using any of those pressure tools?Genuinely open to improvement tips here.

and..

Sure, things were different back then.
The answer used to always be: "Just chase someone else."
That used to work really well.

But that strategy basically died with the introduction of MMR.

Yea, MMR doesn’t work perfectly — not even close. It’s not as strict or accurate as it would need to be (that’s what I talked about in my previous post),
but it does make sure that you don’t get the same kind of lobbies we had back in the day anymore.

Like, those full-on 100-hour-lobbies from the old days? Those are pretty much gone.

MMR isn’t great at separating casuals, stealth players, PvE-focused players, etc...
But it does broadly prevent completely new players (like under 1000h people, the true newbies) from ending up in your lobbies.

So in that sense, they now have their own little "protected bubble" — something that just didn’t exist at all back then.

But all in all, this is really only indirectly about slugging, tunneling, or staying close — it’s more about the point of how much these tools actually keep a lot things stable

Ok.. i understand what u mean, but:

Just to clarify one thing up front:
The "perfect survivor team" scenario wasn’t something I brought in to support my argument or strengthen my own position. That example was introduced by someone else — not me — when they mentioned (multiple times) the top 1% teams like Team Eternal.

My response wasn’t meant to say “see, this proves my point,” but actually the opposite: I was trying to take that whole idea off the table. My point was that this kind of perfection doesn’t exist, and that we shouldn’t base balance discussions around it. It’s not a realistic standard — and I was hoping to move away from that kind of framing, not use it for leverage.

Now how the argument starts to drift

That's exactly why I feel misunderstood at that point… because that was never MY argument. I never brought that up — someone else did. I was just responding to it, and more in a way where I was kinda distancing myself from it rather than agreeing with it.

You're saying you are okay with something happening that never will. Every player regardless of role will make mistakes. The idea that the killer is capitalizing on survivor mistakes is also a bit iffy, if the survivors take the killer on a long chase is it because the survivor was good or did the killer made a mistake?

And then we get to the Bailey, the more controversial position arguing against something.

Ok. From that point on, I’m with you. That was a statement I made — that one’s on me. But of course the killer does not only react to survivor mistakes. That’s nah..

The example you're giving also needs some nuance. If a survivor keeps me in a long loop, that's usually on me — in most cases.

1. I failed to recognize dangerous RNG early enough from a distance and committed to something that’s now costing me hard.
2. I took a loop I know how to play properly, but messed it up. That’s on me. Misplayed — my bad.
3. I couldn’t see that right next to the loop I thought I could win, there’s an OP jungle gym into another OP jungle gym chain. I couldn’t have known. Not my bad, just bad RNG — unlucky. Nothing I can do, just gotta deal with it. Costy again.

/Same way survivors sometimes just have to accept they spawned into a dead zone. Nothing they can do either. It’s just one of those ‘unlucky’ situations

1. If my macro at that point sucks — that’s on me.
2. Still on me.
3. You *!xs!!"xsxs! game... better maps and RNG fix when?

And this is where that point really comes into play.:

The idea that the killer is capitalizing on survivor mistakes is also a bit iffy,

...I never said: ONLY. But the moment survivors make mistakes, I, as killer, benefit from that — a lot.
Look: the moment I misjudge something, like taking a chase that ends up being too costly, or making mistakes during that chase... for me, that just means: reposition and move on.
Sure, if I don’t recognize it early enough and stay in that situation too long, the next mistake kicks in. And stacking too many of those — that’s how you lose the match.
But if I do catch it early, then as killer, it just means: reposition and try again.

The moment when a survivor makes a mistake that leads to a down, I can capitalize on that way more than survivors can on my mistakes.

For me, overcommitting or misjudging a chase usually just means repositioning and trying again.

on the other side: for survivors, one bad read or a mistimed vault can already mean a hook state, pressure on the team, and a major shift in momentum. It’s not just “reset and move on” — it’s a whole new problem, cuz.. that turns into a team-wide problem now.

The moment this point is reached, it gets super costy now — that’s when the killer really starts to maximize profit from the situation. If they capitalize on it.

That’s what I meant by the killer capitalizing on survivor mistakes. Many groups give you plenty of those opportunities, and every mistake after that — bad pathing, unsafe unhooks, whatever — just adds to the survivors’ problems and costs them dearly.

A mistake by one of the 25% usually drags the whole team down and often causes a bunch of new mistakes on the survivors’ side. And suddenly, the whole team isn’t playing at 100% anymore

At that point, I as killer get the unfair leverage to put not just one, but the whole team under pressure

Survivor mistakes are exactly what you need. That’s how you win.

That’s why I’m not a big fan of these ‘stats’ or making balance decisions based on them as long we dont see a better mmr. Because one mistake from survivors often leads to so many more mistakes that can quickly crumble the whole game for the survivor team. And most of those are totally avoidable in many cases.

But that’s exactly how it goes in a lot of matches.

Thing is, DBD has a huge playerbase that doesn’t see it as a real PvP game, more like a chill, casual ‘after-work’ thing — a few skill checks here and there, some fun with friends on voice chat. Because of that, survivors end up stacking a snowball of mistakes… and yeah, they often get mad when they run into a killer who’s actually serious, playing properly, and punishing every little opening they give

kill rates are high cuz of this ..

Huh? Different? There’s been a bunch of stuff thrown around in this thread that I’ve already argued against (even quoted some of it a few comments back). Some say survivors need more buffs and a shift to a 50/50 meta, others want more comeback mechanics, and then there’s the usual “slugging, camping, tunneling are the real evil bad problem” ...
So yea, I’ve pushed back on a lot of these points already. Not sure what exactly you’re referring to though—care to clarify?

or do you mean my general point where I cautiously voiced some criticism (about things coming with phase 2), while the discussion — which somehow almost always pops up in a bunch of different topics — suggested that tunneling is actually the root problem? Also, are you talking about my last disussion with Croger?

So y, which changes do you mean exactly? The ones that are pretty much guaranteed to come from BHVR, or the “fictional” (out-of-some-post-here) suggestions I’ve been trying to argue spezific against from a killer perspective?

quick clarification to the quoted stuff :The quote wasn’t about smaller, isolated mistakes that a killer can quickly recover from by repositioning early and not committing to costly plays.

Of course, in those 'I play super bad, make tons of mistakes' situations, get mindgamed, messed op to many loops, lost to many messing up my ability on top multiple times, yup I should lose 100% if the survivor team is decent — no question.

I’m alone in my role. It’s on me. Survivors have it harder at that point. -

not collapsing as a group and avoiding snowballing. They need to stay organized and focused — simply because they have to coordinate a bit.

I only gotta keep only myself organized and focused.

You explain, pretty well, how a single mistake can doom the survivors while the killer can get into a mistake and still reposition and recover.

On survivor side, it’s not just one mistake. It’s a chain reaction of fails.

One down is just one down, one hook just one hook.

more stuff need to happen that a single hook snowballs into a real 'snowball moment

It’s only when chaos breaks out and new mistakes escalate —unsafe unhooks, poor pathing around hooks, too-early unhooks when I’m clearly proxy camping, neglecting gens too soon, too many people rushing the unhook, no sense of when or how to trade if necassary —

Compare this to one of your comments from the first page of this thread

I want to play super bad, make tons of dumb mistakes, feed the killer early, misplay everything so that the killer even gets the chanceto snowball...

...but I still expect built-in comeback mechanics to save me from the consequences.

Free of charge, handed out generously by BHVR.

This was an exaggeration of a person's desire for a comeback mechanic into an over the top take on what they were asking.

It doesn't create a lot of goodwill for reading your takes later in the thread.

like I said, y. If you want to flip my comment to my side:

as the killer, I should just as much lose if I play super bad, make tons of mistakes, and mess everything up. Sure. I don’t expect any comeback mechanics from BHVR if I fail to apply early pressure. I’m not asking for gens to suddenly slow down just because I’m struggling. I don’t expect to get a free Lightborn because some flashy safe denied my first hook even though three gens are already done. Or that my first hook in that situation gets automatically locked from sabotage attempts by survivors just because it’s the first hook and gens are already progressing. I’m not asking for comeback mechanics on the flip side. No.

Back to the concept though, why is it good game design? Even if we say the killer should win more than they lose, which is its own argument, why should one side be so heavily penalized by a mistake while the other has opportunities to recover?

y but you are playin a 4 vs 1. no 1vs1 . Thats it.

The killer has to be the power role in this battle.

A lost 50/50 for the killer just means repositioning, but for the survivor it’s an immediate costy hit. - 1 health stealth.

Survivor mistakes have to be costly — not just to punish the individual who messed up, but to put real pressure on the entire team. That’s how asymmetry works. One player slipping up creates ripple effects, forcing the team into chaos and bad decisions.

If survivor errors only hurt the player who made them, the rest of the team could just carry on, and the whole 4v1 tension falls apart. The killer’s strength lies in exploiting those chain reactions, breaking the team’s coordination.

So making survivor mistakes costly isn’t about punishing one guy — it’s about maintaining that fragile, high-stakes dynamic where the killer’s pressure forces survivors to constantly adapt or crumble.

In asymmetrical games like this, the killer needs more tolerance than the survivors. If killer mistakes were punished as harshly as survivor mistakes, the game would lose its balance: the killer wouldn’t be able to apply enough pressure, and the 4v1 dynamic would collapse. Asymmetry means uneven roles, and the killer needs to be the “power role” as a solo player—not just putting pressure on one person, but exerting control over the entire team.

The goomba fallacy got brought up in the forum recently and being we're doing fallacies I'll throw that in. Lots of people have ideas on how to improve the survivor role, if you want to lump them all together then yes, it would probably make an unfair game. But not all of them are going to be done and no one is suggesting that all of them be done.

Something like anti-slug could be too powerful, it probably won't be, but we won't know for certain until we actually see the design or, at a minimum, are discussing a specific suggestion.

I know. It’s not about treating all suggestions as one big package — I’ve pushed back against individual ideas too.
(And yeah, it’s just my opinion, other people can see it differently.)

Everyone has different ideas and proposals. Some people will like one, others won’t. I’ve made suggestions myself — ones that don’t directly punish the killer.
Not every suggestion has to be “anti-” something.

And y, I’ll p keep pushing back against these “anti-killer” suggestions.

Unless one comes along that genuinely convinces me — then sure, I’m open.

But too many of them aim to strip away pressure tools, one by one.
They slowly chip away at what makes the killer feel like a threat — until you’re just some presence on the map, not the danger you’re supposed to be.

In my view, the killer should be the power role.

And that's all well and good, but that also means that tainted perspectives need to be called out.

Your opinion on these tactics will always be skewed by your extreme reliance on them. People who don't overly rely on it might have a clearer picture than you do. And that needs to be called out, too.

Y, but let’s be real — that tactic has proven to be the strongest, most efficient, and most reliable option available. And even then, it’s not a guaranteed win. It’s just the best shot you have in a game that’s stacked against the killer in coordinated settings.

Its not just "my opinion" at this point:

J

That tactic has proven to be the strongest, most efficient, and most reliable option available. Just look at any comp game from the past few years — camping, slugging, and heavy tunneling are basically standard practice. It’s not even subtle anymore; that’s simply how killers stay competitive at that level. And all of this happens despite strict survivor perk limitations — no Dead Hard (or just one per team), no Decisive Strike, no Off The Record, shoulder, red syringes, no double Exhaustion perks, a limited map pool, and no medikits, flashys or BNP allowed.

I mean, ye, we didn’t want to focus on comp games or the top tier stuff, only "the normal matches" but in these matches it’s clearly shown that this is the strongest tactic.

They really don't, they certainly pick who they listen to and don't just jump on the majority bandwagon. Often to the forums' chagrin, like sticking with the Clown changes, or refusing to killswitch Streetwise.

But this 'seriously reflecting and asking deeper questions' also seems like a deflection, like a stalling tactic. If they come to a conclusion you don't like, you can always claim they 'didn't ask the deeper questions'.

Maybe they did, and you just don't like the answer.

t’s not about who asks the “deeper questions,” but about the fact that certain patterns only become clear when you actually analyze matches properly. And there are plenty of recorded games that provide meaningful data for this — allowing you to ask: What options does the killer have in this situation? What about the survivor? Are the gens being done too slow or too fast? Are the chases too short or too close? Has the player ended up in a zone where they can’t do anything at all? And in the early game — when that really shouldn’t happen — are there areas with no resources available?

I can open a Kill Your Friends lobby in 3-4 tries today with Window of Opportunity equipped, and my mate joins as Billy. After a few attempts, I’m pretty sure I’ll have a recorded game where there’s literally no useful resource nearby (yay, insta-downs thanks to RNG). Meanwhile, my mate rushes me down as lethal Billy.

It’s not that hard to analyze rounds and situations and say: This is bad design and can’t be countered. Sure, both sides get stuck in uncounterable situations sometimes — that’s part of the game. But in the early game, which is always the most decisive phase, these things can be identified and addressed.

I mean, the devs knowthe killers and their limits, the survivors and their limits, perks and their limits. They could easily realize — not by opinions, but by simple analysis and math — that some things are just flat-out broken.

Take the Hag match for example. One thing that immediately springs to mind for me is that it takes you much longer to get your second down because two survivors are blocking you in order to try and take the heat off of her. They likely wouldn't be doing that if you weren't tunnelling, giving you access to quicker downs. Which in turn means you can rotate faster, which means Nicolas Cage is gonna get less free time on a gen.

might have gotten the faster down in that specific situation. But on a macro level, an early 3v1 is exponentially more efficient than a slightly faster down on a fresh hook. You trade a few seconds’ advantage on that down for removing a player from the match much sooner, which slows the overall pace of the game significantly. A fresh hook means "nothing".

and the team in this moment?

the fresh hook surv is further away from the death hook, so the team feels less pressure — they know it’s their first hook. Everyone can freely push gens… they know they have some breathing room. No need for cover or accepting that we lost a player yet.

Thirdly, again: A match that includes camping, tunnelling and/or slugging cannot be used as a basis for arguments about how matches would go without these tactics. Every decision you make causes survivors to react, which in turn causes your decisions to change, which in turn causes survivors' reactions to change, resulting in a domino effect that ultimately massively changes the match's landscape.

You can often still win, of course. In many rounds, you could “slow down a bit.” Normal lobbies are just normal lobbies. But there’s always this expectation from survivors that the killer should “go in less hard” than they actually can… and for what, really? You can think, “Oh, super casual lobby, I’ll play chill early on” — only to still face all those ‘survivor fun’ perks that you can actually counter pretty well by applying strong early pressure.

Sure, you can “slowly and friendly” pick apart some teams, but the moment you do something that those typical casual lobbies don’t like — even if it’s just coming back for a hook when someone blindly rushes to unhook right in front of you — the reaction (especially in casual lobbies) is exactly the same as if you went all-in right away.

And honestly, what’s the point? I mean, you’re the killer, not a teammate. You pick and use the strongest tools you have, just like survivors do on their side.

Sure, I’d rather just play my round normally and chill than constantly facepalm over what’s happening again and who’s feeling “totally unjoyed” this time. And if it’s not something really nasty from the killer kit like slugging or tunneling, there’s always some “evil” perk popping up that’s supposedly totally wrong and unfun.

but all in all:

but often you just have to.

just play more M1 against better players, then you’ll see for yourself where the limits really are.

Are you joking?

You expect a balance change specifically designed to curtail the overbearing power of camping, tunnelling and slugging to do away with anti-tunnelling, anti-camping and anti-slugging measures?

I've said it as a joke before, but you're actually bringing it out here: 'Anti-tunnel measures are fine, so long as they don't hinder my tunnelling'.

Yeah… I do!
You know why? Guess what: I still get hit with all those perks the moment I don’t tunnel. You hook someone, walk away, and boom — the freshly unhooked survivor runs straight into your next chase. DS and Unbreakable locked and loaded, blocking you in the middle of a chase with someone else… and then what?

• Pick them up? – Sure, enjoy eating my DS.
• Leave them on the ground? – No problem, Unbreakable. And if not, then anti-slug measures will just pop them right back up.

End result: you’re stuck in a “I can’t pick up, I can’t slug, I can’t do anything” situation.
Or you just have to eat the DS — as a thank you for not tunnelling.

So tell me… what’s the point of these perks if they just get used aggressively against the killer the second I’m not tunnelling/camping/slugging/whatever?

Anti-FACEcamp.

Camping is still perfectly doable. It's why anti-camp doesn't kick in at all if there's other survivors near the hook. All this measure really accomplished was teach people how to camp more effectively!

And that's part of the problem of your opposition to these measures: They haven't even been outlined yet! You don't know what you're agitating against, you're just afraid that your time is up!

Ye, I’m scared of the changes – but not because my “time is up.”
People have always demanded stuff, changes came, people adapted… or they quit. That’s just how it’s always been.

If BHVR goes all-in the way you want – making tunneling basically impossible – that just means: no M1 killers for a while. Nurse only. (Which, btw, most killers in my MMR are already doing.) You think people are gonna like that? Guess what? They won’t. And BHVR will eventually walk it back once they see it’s not working.

’(Cause a lot of groups just turn basically unkillable if tunneling, slugging, and camping are completely off the table, but everything else stays exactly the same.)

And honestly, I don’t think you’ve watched much of the dev streams. What we’re probably getting is more like no-collision after unhook (which would actually be a good thing – no more blocking with free BT) … plus something like free OTR or DS or whatever.

My guess? Once “anti-tunnel” drops, you can still tunnel just fine – it’ll still be the most efficient way to play. Killers already chew through those perks right now. We see them constantly. All this will do is give survivors more slots for “fun perks” … and survivors will bring them.

That’s just gonna make even more killers play in ways survivors don’t want. And if they somehow remove camping and tunneling completely, the way you’re dreaming of… how long do you think it takes before everyone sees it doesn’t work? How many players will leave or switch to the “only top” killers?

And if that were truly a problem, we'd probably get adjustments to that, too, but there's barely any complaints about that stuff! It's always, always, always just a generalised complaint of 'I lost, fix it'.

I'm absolutely on board with nerfs to hook denial, but I also feel like I'm the only one on the forums that has that stance!

It’s not a problem right now — and that’s because the killer actually has the tools to deal with it. The exact tools you want removed.

If someone tries to sabotage me — just look at my Huntress games:
I can slug. I Proxy.
I can take out the sabo player with direct tunneling whenever the opportunity arises.

Right now, what survivors bring to the table isn’t that bad, because the killer’s base kit — independent of perks — includes counters for all of it.
It only becomes a real problem if everything you want gets removed.

You can already kinda see what a problem that could turn into in matches with people who, no matter what happens, still try to be “super nice and friendly” and just take everything that’s thrown at them. Always playing by the “rulebook.” And when they finally complain about feeling powerless, the answer is always the same: slug… tunnel.

And those complainers get quiet again. Because right now, that stuff works. But what if it really goes 100% how you want it to?

Show me your math then. Let's see you compile

every

single

factor

in your 'calculations'.

The examples you want me to include just don’t work…

the penalty for having more people on one gen? Survivors know that. That’s why nowadays people do single-gens. And my math doesn’t even include toolboxes, brand new parts, etc. Healing? When? Why? With most killers, you stay injured. Healing is often not efficient because of the time loss.

People are whining right now because they want to bodyblock and cover during tunneling, or because someone’s on a dead hook. But if you play on fresh hooks, most survivors won’t heal anymore against the majority of killers. Why would they? They only heal if the killer is putting insane pressure (which usually comes from tunneling or proxy camping), so they can take hits or trade.

and say it again:

The examples you want me to include just don’t work…

You can’t just throw inefficient stuff into the calculation. By that logic, I could also say, “what if the group clears all bold totems before touching the first gen…”

You gotta base it on the situation that the team plays efficiently.

I mean..

If I start adding inefficient stuff into this equation, I might as well include: “What if the killer just strolls around the map for 30 seconds checking RNG, then casually drops by the survivors to politely ask if their little squad is ready to slowly start the whole kill process?

Based on what though? Are we discussing game design, as in what would be the best elements for the game, or we discussing desires to win all the time?

What I really want to say is: It’s not about wanting to win all the time. But I want to keep the chance to WIN — even against efficient groups. (forgot to quote u my last post)

And it doesn’t even have to be the really good SWFs. Even average players squeeze every bit of efficiency out of the round. Everyone gets it: it’s about maximizing efficiency wins — survivors included.

If you think the stuff killers have is too strong from a design perspective, what about the efficiency tools survivors have?

And no… this isn’t me whining about “gen speed being broken” or anything. But that’s only because I also have my strong tools for applying pressure.