My problem with the 60% kill rate target

Nowhere. I just think it’s kinda sad that a post that’s supposed to be about stats — how accurate they are and all that — just instantly devolves into the usual “it’s the Killer’s fault” thing, led by the whole tunnel talk.
And ye, I’ll admit it: proxy camping, slugging, tunneling — sure, that affects the stats. Strongest tools in the Killer’s kit. Baseline stuff.
But… why is it always just that?

Why not, in the same breath, talk about how it’s barely even worth trying to defend gens anymore? You turn around once, and you’ve got three people — injured or not — sitting right next to your chase on a gen. Play something weak and they know your limits here. They know. They know that even if you drop chase right now, you’re not stopping that gen.
I can live with that, as long as I’ve still got my counter-pressure tools. But why is nobody talking about matchmaking when one side is clearly having a bad time? Or about certain perk synergies that are actually too strong? Nope — it’s always the same topic. And that’s me, the second I play Killer.

And honestly? This post… what’s gonna happen?

At some point it’s just gonna fade into silence. There’s not gonna be an “agreement” between us. Its just the normal us vs. them thing. This community is just too split. I’m not gonna stop doing what I do. They’re not gonna stop fighting against it and asking for more “goodies” that make my experience worse.
This community is, at its core, too divided. Nobody’s willing to give up even a piece of their kit or what they have. (Myself included) There’s never gonna be a “we” between Killers and Survivors. A single voice. It’s just not gonna happen. I’ve known the game and the community too long to believe otherwise.

Players will always push back against whatever frustrates them the most.
Killers go after gen speed, “OP” survivor perks, or now the new fog item.
Survivors go after whatever frustrates them the most — new Killers/abilities they can’t counter (OP), or yup, I KNOW… the big bad camping, tunneling, slugging.

Don’t get me wrong — things that frustrate people should be discussed. Especially new stuff (Clown, fog, Conviction, whatever) — you need feedback to balance things after release. (A PTB is just a test environment; you can’t see all the problems right away. Look at Ghoul — still a huge mess.)
But when it comes to stuff that’s been in the game forever and kinda balances each other out — gen speed vs. the “evil” slugging/camping/tunneling — there’s never gonna be middle ground. One side will always want to take something away from the other. And nobody’s willing to give.

There’s never gonna be a “we” here.

Which is a shame, because I do see things both sides could actually benefit from together. Where Survivors and Killers could go to BHVR with one voice.

Like…
Better MMR.
Better servers (ye, it sucks to get tunneled and eat that 3–4 meter hit through a window — a Survivor has one chance when injured, and it sucks to lose it to latency).
Better hit registration — huge difference whether you get smacked 3 meters around a corner, whether a hatchet still connects, or whether as Killer your hit actually lands or not.

Better tools for SoloQ, so the gap between Solo and SWF isn’t massive.

Sure, if you only look at stats, you might say:
“Well, what’s the difference? Escape rate’s about the same.”
But when you actually watch the games, you see the difference clearer.
SoloQ lobbies sometimes just get crushed. 5 gens up, dead zones, no calls, insta-down, proxy camp, tunnel, out.
SWF: early callouts, more frustration from being found at bad spots, but overall way more organized, longer games.

A lot of SoloQ losses happen because they just get steamrolled — not just by the Killer, but also bad teammates or throwers. Hence their escape rate.
A lot of SWF losses happen because they get too cocky, too greedy, overcommit to saves, play overly aggressive.

In SoloQ, the game is often decided early, 4–5 gens up.
In SWF, it’s often in late game where they all die to a NOED camp (just an example).

SoloQ has more frustration. SWF usually has the better game.
Solo players see stats like “top SWFs don’t escape more than me” and just think “so everything must be unfair.”

But a good SWF plays very differently than typical SoloQ. Many don’t even care about escaping — they enjoy the aggressive style way more (because the efficiency meta is boring… early call, early run, early drop).

Where SoloQ ends up in an unwinnable position because of a missed callout, SWF avoids those spots — but gives Killers more openings for counter-pressure through their aggression.

So no, you can’t just go: “SWF and SoloQ have the same escape rate, therefore Killer OP.”

And since we’re on the topic of the “nothing I can do — insta-down” situations that impact both sides…

Better, fairer maps for both sides would be a win for everyone

But nope.

These discussions always end the same way:

The evil Killer tunneled, and that’s the root of all evil.

I never said they are too strong or what your opinion on them is. Its an example of something that once upon a time was too strong, got nerfed, but is still part of a game and that some players, not all, think should get more nerfed, but that doesn't mean they would be completely removed.

keh..

alright, if I read him wrong, fair play — my bad. Asked him already if in my Nurse game that’s straight-up tunnel camping, since one survivor was right near the hook with me and I had line of sight on it… 1 dude was farming the hook right in front of me. So, does that already count as camping + tunneling?

Like, if it’s legit for me to hang tight near the hook, deny the unhook, punish the guy trying to save right under my nose (and "tunnel" the unhooked?), and slug the everyone’s clearly in my sight — then y, can i in this situations keep my "goodies?"

I just don’t wanna lose them, you know? I’m not just gonna let everything happen right in front of me just ‘cause I’m “not allowed.”

A lot of SoloQ losses happen because they just get steamrolled — not just by the Killer, but also bad teammates or throwers. Hence their escape rate.
A lot of SWF losses happen because they get too cocky, too greedy, overcommit to saves, play overly aggressive.

In SoloQ, the game is often decided early, 4–5 gens up.
In SWF, it’s often in late game where they all die to a NOED camp (just an example).

SoloQ has more frustration. SWF usually has the better game.
Solo players see stats like “top SWFs don’t escape more than me” and just think “so everything must be unfair.”

But a good SWF plays very differently than typical SoloQ. Many don’t even care about escaping — they enjoy the aggressive style way more (because the efficiency meta is boring… early call, early run, early drop).

Where SoloQ ends up in an unwinnable position because of a missed callout, SWF avoids those spots — but gives Killers more openings for counter-pressure through their aggression.

So no, you can’t just go: “SWF and SoloQ have the same escape rate, therefore Killer OP.”

And since we’re on the topic of the “nothing I can do — insta-down” situations that impact both sides…

Better, fairer maps for both sides would be a win for everyone

Y, but what’s the “right” play when someone goes down, two people instantly rush me with flashies, the guy on the ground has conviction + plot twirst, and while I hit one of the flashy players, I turn around and the downed person is already back up?
Yup… bring Lightborn, sure.

was a good quickswitch at 6 seconds — as I do as surv. (so i wasn´t even mad) But if they had been downed in a pallet… I get it, survivors have their new toy. I’m fine with that. But I want to keep my toy too.

That situation was completely uncounterable for me no matter what I did. Picking up was impossible, slugging was impossible. I was just stuck. I want to keep the right to get my pressure back later in the match — maybe in a “cheap” way? Damn yes, it´s cheap.. But that Conviction into Plot Twist combo is no less cheap.

dvd at this point isn’t always a “skill game.” A lot of the time it’s about who brings the strongest stuff and stacks it high. And yeah, even so: you’re right, I hate the randomness. I don’t want to risk something like that happening mid-game after I’ve “gone soft” once. I take every bit of pressure I can get the moment it’s there.

i mean.. what do you even do in these situations? Do you just let everything happen to you? Or do you tell yourself, “Yohh… if that happens, I’ll punish it, but otherwise I’ll play soft”?

Okay, fair.. but: big BUT: what if you’re playing super soft and then something like that happens on the last two gens, and it flips the whole match? Does that “Yup, one or two kills are fine” mindset kick in? You can have that mentality, sure, but I play for the win. And for me, that means the whole team. Doesn’t mean I’ll always get it, but losing a match I felt like I had under control because of something like that… and losing the entire round just because I didn’t put on enough pressure early?

lot of things start happening the moment you give them “breathing room.” You need that constant pressure on the team.

But y, like I said up there, and like I’ve said elsewhere before: it’s just not worth having big debates anymore. The lines have hardened so much over the years, that whole “us vs them” thing—it’s basically a concrete wall now.

Breaking through that, finding some middle ground? Total waste of time.

So what’s left? Game on, chat off, and just full-on “I don’t care” mode.

So just.. i don´t care. Why not?

You're not paying attention.

It's the logical conclusion from you claiming that healing is inefficient.

In both cases, the reward is the same: The chased survivor gets extra distance. Except in the case of a heal, it doesn't require the involvement of a second survivor for an extended period of time, and it gives the on-hit sprint, which adds a lot more distance.

Given the same competence and resources, the healthy survivor will give you a longer chase than an injured survivor getting a bodyblock from a teammate. And if said bodyblock is indeed a DS/UB one, the bodyblock costs the survivors far more time, since the bodyblocker has to get into the chase and then pick themselves back up once they go down. AND it costs two perk slots, while healing costs zero.

If healing is inefficient, the DS/UB bodyblock is even more so.

In a situation where one person is hooked and the killer goes for the unhook, that unhooked survivor is usually pretty close to where the chase is happening. If they’re running Dead Hard + Unbreakable, or Conviction + Plot Twist (which is currently a better choice), and they know which way the chase is going, they can aggressively bodyblock if it makes sense.

What happens next? The killer has a few options: try to go around to avoid hitting the bodyblocking survivor, hit and down the unhooker (which is harder), or just accept the block.

If the blocker goes down, the survivor still in the chase gains a lot of distance and saves their health state. Now the killer has to decide whether to pick up the bodyblocker—who just effectively saved the chase—or slug them. It’s a lose-lose situation.

If the killer picks up the bodyblocker, Dead Hard triggers. If they slug and keep chasing the survivor far away, that survivor can trigger Unbreakable—or even get a fast rescue from a teammate. And all this happens simply because the killer didn’t tunnel immediately.

Then you will not prove that the game is unwinnable without these tactics.

Take your pick.

Except you were insistent that your arguments are NOT based on the perfect teams, or even the team Eternals! This is a full-on return to your motte-and-bailey: Make the outrageous claim that the average match is unwinnable without tunnelling, and then when asked to support that claim, you swap out the average team for an impossibly immaculate survivor team!

Need I remind you that the entire baseline argument you came up with is that we can't have anti-tunnel, anti-camp and anti-slug because it would make matches against average teams unwinnable?

So what is this 'calculation' doing here, when it cannot brook even the slightest bit of inefficiency, to the point where there's not a single heal, not a single step out of place, not a moment of hesitation?

This level of 'efficiency' doesn't exist. You've admitted as much yourself. So why is this 'calculation' here?

(Picked this match because we played super, super inefficiently and badly — plus the biggest mistake this guy made was letting the recovery heal happen and NOT tunneling right away.)

No Team Eternal. Just duo queue with my friend and me. Normal chill evenin lobby. Totally not warmed up and really trying (2-3 short rounds before he has to go to work)... from his POV, where the recording starts, my mate already been tunneled once. At that moment, he’s just getting a Shoulder of Burden unhook from the cute random fengedi.

The killer made the mistake of patrolling too long and didn’t deny the heal after the unhook—didn’t tunnel right away. So he let a heal go through... watch the HUD. We were super inefficient on the gens, our Claudette barely did anything this round (hello bold totems sometimes). I was busy with cover now and then, also not really efficient. We played really badly and really slowly. Max too. He went down once totally unnecessarily. Just removed. You know, those “short rounds before work.”

y sorry nemi, let this unhook happen with a free reset was to costy for u.

Sure, this Nemesis made mistakes—as we all do. No one played perfectly. And y, we were super, super slow. Just W-shift and drop early if it’s getting hot. I’m the main, he got confused by me once near the end, which was costly. But then maybe he could’ve gotten a kill (I would have been there to block, with my Flashbang ready if needed). So what else could Nemesis really have done?

Or, alternatively, you could not tunnel, and avoid all the countermeasures!

This complaint is basically 'anti-tunnel makes tunnelling slower'. Which is the exact point of anti-tunnel measures.

You do realize people use those perks aggressively against you, even in the moments when you’re not tunneling, right?

I ask you again: Is there anything I could've said that would've changed your mind on this?

idk.

Buddy, I've seen complaints about No Mither and Invocation: Weaving Spiders. Whether you can deal with it or not is not a requirement for something to be complained about. The reality is that most forum killers just aren't focused on these armed-to-the-teeth 4-man swiffers with rampant unhook denial, they just want to stomp lowbies harder. Which is why the focus is always on gen speeds, rather than the things that set these high skill teams apart from the rest

Those kinda accusations just put me straight into “whatever - i dont care” mode real quick. That whole “us vs. them” vibe is stuck way too deep. What’s even the point in trying if .. whatever i say.. or do.. i´m the bad killer that only wants to stomp on scrubs? Like, y, guess I’m always the bad guy who just wants to crush noobs…

on on this way:

No Mither and Invocation: Weaving Spiders are my final boss

Is there anything I could've said that would've put your conclusion out of your head?

Nah, doubt it. It is what it is

He does… but as long as I’m not on the death hook, I usually don’t care that much against most killers (situationally I want the heal, depending on the situation and the killer). But generally, I have enough game sense to notice when the killer switches and leaves the gen, so I don’t need that “hit- boost” to get a good setup.

Sure, if the killer is applying pressure and wants to take someone out of the game, then I want the heal. That’s when I move. I don’t give my teammates away for free. (You can see that in the Nemesis round—I’m there for Max exactly when it gets “tight,” especially when he’s on the death hook. I was there)

But when the killer goes for fresh hooks, I see zero need. I usually have enough game sense to avoid an insta-down, even when injured, and I know when to run and in which direction, so I have something to work with.

Of course, you can play differently. Everyone can play how they want. And a “super nice playin killer” will be happy about the less pressure coming from your survivor group then, safe safe.

And that'll help you win if you don't unga-bunga tunnel into it.

You’re assuming survivors are bad .. the " insta-downs. " That’s just another gamble — a dice roll. What about the survivors who don’t give you that and actually know what they’re doing?

Exactly. You had no intention of seeking out a middle ground.

You were in an 'I don't care' mode from the very start.

I’ve suggested plenty of things survivors could take on the flip side. Stuff that mostly only SWF would feel, while casuals and new players wouldn’t even notice. A lot.
But you all just wanna keep your toys, and I’m the only one who’s supposed to give up mine.

y..

I tried to find a typical average evening lobby experience—basically what most matches look like for the majority.

Nemi made mistakes. So did we. He asked about the "average hours" and wanted to exclude the "top percent" (which he always starts by leaving out). So I tried to find something I’d call "super average" (super slow gens + average mistakes on both sides) — no idea, most of my rounds are usually a sweaty mess on both sid.es anyway. But i tried to find 1 that’s basically how I picture a normal average round, since he suddenly wants to exclude the others.

I’ve already shared other POVs where I showed clearly: you can’t win without tunneling. But he just kind of brushed them off like they don’t matter.

The’s talking about average lobbies and average experience. Okay, fine. Here’s a super average match for you.

Y he was talkin about "Not the top" .. so y. he talked about "the normal matches.." and idk, that was just 1 for me. (we were sooo super slow and chll @ surv side) but y.. Missplays on the killer side vs missplays on the survivor side + a super slow game… I mean, he has 500 hours, I have 10,000+. It’s hard for me to imagine what kind of lobbies he’s thinking of when he always talks about excluding the “top percent.” What lobbys else is he talkin about? I already told him about rounds where both sides make few to no mistakes. I don’t know.

(But I’m just trying to put myself in his shoes when he talks about it.) The best thing would be if he shared his POVs from his matches, but he doesn’t want to do that. so y. idk.

edit: And I always find it hard to buy into this whole “top percent” argument he makes. For me, that “top percent” doesn’t really exist… (its not hard to reach this point if you want to) Also “Team Eternal” he keeps bringing up (I’m EU, I’ve had people from that group in my lobbies before multiple times, i mean… idk.. ). But DBD isn’t rocket science. At some point, you’ve seen it all. Then it just becomes an arms race on both sides — who brings the strongest stuff and who puts the most pressure.

But I’m trying to get into his head and see things from his erspective. Like, I’m really trying.

I mean, once he talks about “average teammates,” it should be allowed for the killer to mess up things too… not just survivors: yes, killers: nah.

Normal smart play in this situation: deny the reset immediately and get the quick down — that’s the pressure you need right there. Not running all over the map checkinglgens or chasing a fresh hook first while still having all 4 people up, because of Firellius "dont tunnel" rule.

Y, not my fault. I wrote in detail about why I don’t think judging things based on stats alone is all that good or meaningful, and why I think it doesn’t really work in the current state of the game to just look at the numbers. But there’s always someone who pops in with the whole “everything bad in this game happens because a killer is tunneling” take, completely ignoring everything else

to quote myself:

. I just think it’s kinda sad that a post that’s supposed to be about stats — how accurate they are and all that — just instantly devolves into the usual “it’s the Killer’s fault” thing, led by the whole tunnel talk.

To bring the discussion back on topic from the whole “evil killer tunneling” thing: tunneling is definitely a strong, efficient strategy. safe, safe. — so I’m gonna use it. Everyone can play however they want, it’s legit, so that’s fine. Just to steer the thread back on track — the debate about whether tunneling is needed or not really drifted too far, and that one person was right. We can continue that in a private chat if you want, I’m open for it!

Yes, tunneling has a big impact on kill rates. But on the flip side, killers often let people go, play by certain self-imposed rules, stop at two kills per game, or intentionally play “soft” with hooks. That impacts stats just as much as efficient tunneling.

But, back to my orginal point (page 2 I think?) , the biggest problem for me is still the not-so-great MMR system (I explained the 100-100 2). Because that causes entire groups to get crushed if one player underperforms. That, for me, affects kill rates way more than whether killers use efficient tactics or play “loose.”

Many rounds are basically decided because MMR doesn’t work right, and two people end up in a group that should never have been matched with that killer — and then get completely overwhelmed, handing out 4Ks.

DbD isn’t what it used to be. Two survivors can’t “carry” the whole match anymore once the killer gets good. Just 1 or 2 overpowered players in a team can wreck everything. That’s why looking at stats isn’t really worth it as long as the matchmaking isn’t working properly. In my opinion, stats don’t mean much in this case — you always have to watch what actually happens inside the match while good matchmaking is missing.

Until we get better MMR, stats just don’t say much. Just my opinion. Better MMR, better maps, and some reworks have a way bigger impact before you can make any real call about whether something is too strong or too weak.

Because: no matter how weak the killer is, if a survivor spawns in a dead zone with good map structure nearby — and no filler pallets between you and them — that survivor will die. even if it’s a Trapper or a Hag. Instant down.

Exactly, good hit registration and better servers. That often decides whether you get a down or not and plays a big role in those stats.

for me those are still the main points (like I explained earlier)… it’s not that I tunnel. Proper MMR, proper hit registration, proper servers, proper maps… only then am I willing to take things like “kill rates” seriously when judging if something is too strong or too weak. Just my point of view.

to summarize my point from page 2 again:

In DBD, each survivor only brings 25% to the team, while the killer has full 100% control. A lot of survivor teams start off below 100% because matchmaking is off or some players mess up or play weak. That puts pressure on the ones who could bring their full 25%, forcing them into risky spots — like hook trades or covering teammates. Their own 25% that they could bring gets heavily weakened because one person in the group couldn’t bring their 25%. Suddenly, the whole team doesn’t function at full strength anymore. That’s why so many groups fall apart — they don’t consistently bring their full game. Matchmaking needs to ensure every survivor can actually bring their 25%. If the killer spots and punishes those weak points, those teams die fast and the kill rate skyrockets.

Once the killer capitalizes on that… this team is dead. It heavily influences the kill rate. But balance decisions are being made based on these kill rates while issues like matchmaking, better maps, and proper hit registration haven’t been fixed yet? IDK.

I think it’s tricky.