http://dbd.game/killswitch
I'm amazed that killers are surprised by the changes
It's not uncommon for killer mains to have an average kill rate of 70%. Some even with 80%. The concept of "win streaks" should never be possible in a competitive pvp game with mmr. The game just became an ego boost for killer mains where survivors were just supposed to be punching bags for a killer's enjoyment. Survivors no longer wanted to play and were leaving the game in droves. The devs are finally taking action to level the playing field, and now killers will finally see what their true skill level is. In the long run these changes will make the game more enjoyable for everyone though, except streamers who can't boast about 1k win streaks anymore.
Comments
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"Survivors leaving the game in droves" Source: Trust me bro
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Don't you know? Killer queues (except for 2v8) are like TWO WHOLE MINUTES!
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First of all, the steady increase in player numbers suggests that people have not been leaving the game "in droves"; while I'm sure there have been Survivor players who've left because of not enjoying the game's current state (in spite of the bufs Survivors have rightly received), it doesn't help discourse to exaggerate.
Second, kill rates have been inflated across the board by the changes to Endgame Mori and the Abandon feature, as well as the Go Next phenomenon in general: I've had many more games where Survivors have just peaced out of entirely winnable scenarios, and I don't really see the point in letting bots escape, especially when they're usually worse at the game (this does raise the question of how much merciful Hatch escapes were influencing kill/escape rates.
Third, kill rates as a blunt statistic are not very informative by themselves: I just checked my stats and my highest KRs are on Wraith and Trapper, because I played them as a beginner and got a load of 4ks against baby Survivors who didn't have any perks and didn't know how the game worked, before I reached the MMR cap and those Killers becoming effectively unplayable. Meanwhile the more 'accurate' average of around 60% for my mains does not come from usually getting 2 sacrifices per trial with the occasional 3rd, but from having a rough split between 3-4k matches and 4 man escapes complete with teabags at the Exit Gate. My experience may not be universal, but then neither is the experience of the pro DBD player who gets ridiculous win streaks on S-tier Killers (I suspect the problem there is with the Killers they play, not with Killers in general: I've not seen someone complete that challenge on Skull Merchant).
Finally, few of the changes proposed will actually affect the status quo. While I'm generally in favour of the anti-slugging changes– though the specifics may become problematic– the anti-tunnel changes will not bother the best Killers in the game and not help the worst. It doesn't matter that gens become unstoppable and Survivors get a buff to repair speed if a cracked Nurse or Blight can still kill everyone at 4 gens. An Onryo does no better with basekit Pop and BBQ if Survivors can still effectively ignore her power and clear 3 gens before she gets her first hook.
If these changes do go through as described, and the numbers are actually meaningful, it probably will cause a drop in kill rates, but only in the Killers who already struggled to secure kills without tunnelling (who also tend to be the ones more accessible to newer players, players on console and players with disabilities). In that case, I hope it prompts BHVR to have a deep look at those Killers, the flaws in their designs, and the changes that could be made to them and the game more widely to close the gap between top and bottom tiers, so there's actually an incentive to play anyone other than the top 5.
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I agree on the kill rates people have been posting, especially because its frequently accompanied by 'but the survivors are incredible!'
It's like how we commonly get posts about the survivors being too strong, accompanied by a video of a killer winning, but the survivors almost won!
Even if a killer is really good at the game, if they are hitting survivors who are really good at the game as they claim, then their kill rates should not be so far out of BHVR's target range
I definitely agree on the streaks. If there were only a handful of players who ever pulled this off I could see it, but if someone came on the forum and was like 'I just won 10 games in a row as killer!' we'd all just shrug. The expectations for what it means to be a power role are way out of whack.
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I'll take things that will never happen for 500, Alex.
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???Which things will never happen??? My post is like 5 paragraphs, you have to be more specific if you're trying to drag me
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In that case, I hope it prompts BHVR to have a deep look at those Killers,
Sorry, I thought I quoted it. This will never happen. They've kept low tier killers in the garbage can for years. At best, they'll give killers like Trapper and Hag half an addon as basekit and call it a day, like they always do.
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Oh right. Yeah, I hope they'll be more radical and proactive at addressing Killer and Map balance, but I suspect they'll be at the back of the queue behind the next 30 Sable skins and the Pizza Hut collab featuring newest Killer The Annoyance.
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Exactly. They'll make some number tweaks that don't address the core issues, pat themselves on the back, then go back to deciding what perk to give survivors as a basekit next.
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There were certain content creators and their orbiters who after previously slugging every match (until BHVR was forced to add the option to leave matches) have now started to hard tunnel at 5 gens in every game. I have warned them that like with the whole slugging everyone tactic, they will force the devs hand so they have to introduce extreme methods to stop tunnelling.
Sure enough… the devs have been forced to finally do something and honestly I am happy to see it finally happen.
Most killers don't tunnel hard like this but as per usual, it is a small minority that ruin things for everyone
Post edited by MaTtRoSiTy on8 -
That's funny. I see a lot more bully squad content creators than slugging content creators. When will those bully squad creators be getting their nerfs? Oh, wait! I forgot, they're actually getting BUFFED this patch. Because killers have to worry about survivor satisfaction, and survivors are allowed to be as mean spirited and toxic as they want.
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Just FYI, hatch escapes and DCs dont count towards escape rates
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Its almost impressive how many inaccurate statements you managed to cram into one post.
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But Going Next does.
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Mandy confirmed awhile ago that they could distinguish folks going next just fine. This was back when people were questioning if Skull Merchant's high killrates were because of folks letting go on hook.
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Source that hatch doesn't count in thrir stats? I never read that anywhere.
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Uh huh. And then they showed that they couldn't actually do that when they released the "Anti-Go Next" patch.
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How does this happen do you recon
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If the go-next system is too overzealous in detecting and removing games from the system, you realize that's only going to artificially decrease the kill rate by falsely removing kills from blowout games, right?
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Yeah, if you're playing an A/S tier killer and hard tunneling as a rule, you almost have to be bad not to win 80%+ of the time. It says nothing about your skill if you do, other than that you're not utter dogwater.
I think people really losing their shiz over this dev update are really upset for one of three reasons:
- Going through the bumpy process of learning how to play killer differently might not be fun
- Discovering that they aren't actually amazing at the game and were largely benefitting from busted stuff may hurt their ego
- They main low tier killers
For points one and two, this reminds me of when 6.1.0 dropped and absolutely exploded the entrenched (and largely busted) surv meta. A lot of people said it was the end of survs, and everyone was going to leave. A lot of "cracked" surv players quickly discovered that they were not nearly as good as they thought they were, and there was much wailing and lamentation.
And ultimately the game has been better off for it.
The same sort of thing may happen here, and I wouldn't be sad about it.
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So, small clarification. DC's aren't counted is correct.
Hatch does count as an escape as far as kill rates go.
However, Hatch is basically ignored in MMR and is considered a draw, so your MMR isn't changing if you hatch escape, which is where I think the mix-up comes from.
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I agree. I'm personally excited to see what stays, is changed, or removed before live. This is a healthy direction to take and I'm confident that BHVR will buff killers in other areas if they under perform due to these changes.
As a p100 nemesis main with only about 65% kill rate, I'm super curious to see what changes in my games. Thankfully, I'm sure enough cry babies will quit the game giving me back instant queues so I can practice again more.
It won't stop me from throwing the game to tunnel out stars members however
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Are you incapable of getting downs or wining games without tunneling or slugging longer than 90 seconds? Because this patch really doesn't affect you in any negative way unless you tunnel or slug longer than 90 seconds.
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The average player in dbd is very bad. This is why kill rates mean very little. They aren’t very representative of balance. The only reason you don’t see win rates as high on survivor is because of those same bad teammates pulling you down. IE if you made a 4 man swf you’d see the same win rates.
The context of wins for either side is more important than just if they won or lost. This is how statistics get misinterpreted.
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Of course I am. I'll probably still win half or more of my games. You know, the ones against potato survivors that aren't really satisfying because I know I only won because the survivors were garbage. The ones against good survivors that actually do gens? No, you can't beat a good team that's actually trying to win without a bit of tunneling or slugging. The gens go too fast. You have to slow the game down somehow.
But these changes won't affect me at all. I'm not playing this slop. Y'all can have fun with 15 minute survivor queues and sweaty Nurses, Ghouls and Blights over and over again. I'll be skonging.
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Nothing will happen if anything I want to get fast killer queues again, remember before 6.1 with old dead hard and old gens, killer queue was instant and getting 4k was something special it felt really good
now it's whatever hard tunnel someone quickly and you get free 4k in most cases, boring game I really hope bhvr don't overnerf everything from PTB, finally a good patch I was losing hope
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Sure, and Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
They have to balance the game around the player base they have and the way matches actually play out in reality - not some theoretical edge case where all the survivors are perfect and the killers mediocre in every match. Saying a kill isn't a kill is ridiculous - the killer still won and the survivor still lost.
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The irony. Instead, you want them to balance around 20k hour Blights and 20 hour solo queue.
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Odd that the same streamers calling survivors bad are the ones who cried and cried when mmr was first introduced (and actually somewhat worked) and they couldn't do 50 winstreaks on every killer while reading chat and listening to music.
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Are you suggesting every killer except cracked blights going against baby survivors need to tunnel to win? That's pretty ridiculous.
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Lol. You keep trying to use this "gotcha," no matter how many times I clearly explain it to you. Maybe I should use smaller words?
Against good survivors, mid killers need help. Perks no help. Perks go boom! Daddy Behavior make perks baaaaad. But game too fast. Mid killers not get downs fast. Mid killers get survivor out of game when gens go pop! Mid killer now get in trouble when they do that, which makes mid killers sad. Now mid killers no want to play no more. Mid killers still beat bad survivors. But lose when survivors no play like potatoes.
Did that help, or should I start drawing pictures?
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If these are queue times, you realize that the side with fewer players has quicker queues right? There's a reason killer queue might be 7 minutes, and that's a factor of your mmr bracket, how many killers are head of you, but most importantly how many survivors are playing to decrease the amount of killers ahead of you. The less survivors, the longer you're waiting.
edit: not sure why my quote to the "trust me bro" didn't go through, but this was not directed at you @ratcoffee
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No gotcha - you're the one who keeps positing that some killers can't win without tunneling and then pretending like that's not what you said.
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You’re strawmanning my point. Also, there’s a big difference between losing because I played bad and losing because of balance problems. Both are a loss, but one feels significantly different than the other.
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Not sure what streamers you’re referencing. Don’t think I saw any of this.
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Even if you disagree with the changes, I think we all had a sense that BHVR had to do something.
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I'm not one of the best players but ive 100%ed the achievements and can play every killer on the list competently. And know how to loop decently enough. Ive always went into round just to play for the fun of it and hope to win. On survivor you know you are going to lose but might end up losing afterall, while on killer i hope to get lots of hooks and maybe even kill most of em if not all but ill do it honorably. What ive always been confused about is most killer players believe they should win 100% of the time based on their skill alone. Which makes no sense because why would the survivors even bother to try if they are supposed to lose every time? The killer wasnt meant to win every time but most killers end up doing anything necessary to win every time which has lead to both sides hating eachother so much. Not saying the survive with friends swat teams abusing 3rd party communication in the background to not only win easier but bully the killer player while doing so - doesnt help with all that either. And thats what killers try to base their "balance" off of is hardcore swat teams, while regular random que with no communication just gets stomped on most of the time. Anti tunneling and anti slugging fixes sound pretty reasonable this time to me as i alredy play the killer the way they are trying to enforce. But 1 thing will always be out of balance and thats the swf teams. I can understand random duos paired together where only 2 of em communicate at a time, but full teams are what really drive killers over the edge and the balance of all perks in the game all over the place. I think they should fix something about swf teams someday
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Might end up winning afterall* the edit system is still broken lol
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What evidence do you have that survivor players are “leaving the game in droves”?
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Yes, some killer players have higher than average kill rates. But some have a lower than average kill rate. Just like on the survivor side some survivor players escape more frequently than others. This is called a skill curve - some players are better than others. You can’t balance a side based on the fact that the top performers do better than the average player. All that does is make the game miserable for the majority who are not in the top percentiles of performance.
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Yes and most of them end up dead at 5 gens.
I get it, tryhard 'bully squads' are irritating and very unfun to deal with but they almost always aren't actually good at the game. They are just tedious to deal with, no doubt about that.
Despite the claims of certain content creators who claim they are at God tier MMR and always face the top 0.0001% of survivors, reality is most of the player base are unskilled casuals. It just sticks in our memories more when we face 'those' kinds of teams.
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True, but you don't throw water on an electrical fire. These changes have been teased for a while, but the severity of things across so many elements instead of trying any of the changes independently and seeing how they affect player attitudes and adjustments in stages absolutely reeks of appeasement. They still have a PR disaster very close in the rear view mirror, and if you can get 4/5 players to get enthusiastic about the game very quickly, thats very effective damage control.
I actually like some of the ideas in the patch, some are even reminiscent of suggestions I've made in the past, along with many others who articulated them better. As things stand, there is tremendous room for abuse in some of the systems, and I don't trust them to have closed those loopholes before presenting them. And I hope they won't refuse to work with the community when problems come to light.
This patch looks like it could be survivor's own 6.1. And we all remember how many oversights caused that patch to be absolutely miserable for survivors for no short period of time. Like usual, I'm just praying they learned from their mistakes for once.
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So, if the killers throw a tantrum now, changes should be made to please them?
I think we all agree that tunneling needed to be addressed, slugging is more debatable in my opionion because you can tell that is up to survivor to help each other, but from there to introducing such drastic changes that will have a profound impact on part of the roster is a stretch. Some killers are going to become unplayable, those "buffs" after a hook doesn't help them at all… What can a Hag do with an aura reading on the other side of the map? How can she stop now an unhooked survivor from triggering all her traps? If the slugging meter is cumulative, won't all survivors get up before Charlotte arrives to take them? These, and many other situations, were not considered.
I can think of better ideas than introducing these underlying rules and active punishments. They already have the cages that transport the survivors to a location unknown to the Killer; they could have applied this for the hooks. Punishing players for how they play is not good game design; it is, in fact, a confirmation of the failure of their design.
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I mean, isn't that exactly what happened to Fog Vials?
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Personally, I think they should've separated the slugging and tunneling changes into different patches.
I just think it's better to focus on one major change at once, rather than multiple.
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Easy. It's almost as if there is a current 2vs8 event going on where a lot of people want to play killer which screws up the queue times for normal mode as well.
So pointing at the killer queue times right now to argue that survs are leaving makes 0 sense.
Also dbd is still on a player high after fnaf release with above 100k players average. So I don't see survivors leaving unless y want to argue that everyone that recently joined only plays killer
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I don't remember the killers doing stupid things such as abandoning the match because someone used a Fog Vial. Anyway, are you really comparing removing infinite uses from an item (that were never justified) to rendering a large part of the killer roster unusable?
I know you claim to be a killer main based on your comments, but I don't remember seen you give in to their concerns a single time, quite the opposite.
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Its always interesting to me that fog vials making the game literally unplayable for some people gets lumped in with "tantrums," but this never seems to apply for something like, say, the overbrine meta and how much that absolutely destroyed the survivor experience. Can we please stop supporting this rhetoric that either side's valid complaints get lumped into whining in an attempt to discredit lived experiences? Asking for a friend since the nerfs to fog vials didn't even address the accessibility issues around the item, and just ruined it for both sides and turned it into web clutter.
Yep. I don't necessarily have an issue with the theory behind most of the changes, but BHVR are notorious for overlooking things the community experiences regularly, focusing their efforts on a unilateral approach instead of considering the butterfly effect they create, doubling down on unpopular changes if they refuse to scrap their work on them (though this one goes both ways, as they have thankfully reverted things like the twins rework,) and take long periods of time to fix things if they require more than a simple adjustment. To put it frankly, I want to have faith they would be able to incorporate changes on this scale cleanly, but their track record does not instill a lot of faith, and the oversights already provided (90 seconds total enabling basekit UB for the entire match?) don't leave me with a lot of hope.
There's still room for a lot of this to change, but its going to be interesting seeing how long it will take for players to break aspects of these changes, and how much of a one sided effect it's going to have on the player experience. I want to be wrong but I don't think I will be.
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BHVR doesn't really care about accessibility. That's kind of the thing. They only care when they get bad PR about it, see colorblind settings.
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I said we should fix the bugs with fog vials then reevaluate.
Instead, BHVR gave into the demands for them to be gutted and destroyed an item less than a month after it came out.
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