http://dbd.game/killswitch
I can’t believe survivors are ok with being treated like this
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(Gets unhooked), (OTR activates), (gets healed by rescuer in under 10 seconds).
"Wow, I've still got 70 seconds of invincibility! I'm gonna go screw with the killer for perk value!"
(Body-blocks killer in another chase), (Gets exposed by Ghostface), (purposely takes the hit but doesn't go down due to OTR god-mode).
Killer ends up getting significantly punished by the abuse of a so-called "anti-tunnel" perk.
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Thanks for the offer, but I’m good :). I was mostly trying to make a point to the forum members who so often claim how easy playing killer is but have never provided any evidence that they actually play killer themselves.
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People are just playing out of habit. Not because the game is anywhere near fun.
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but have never provided any evidence that they actually play killer themselves.I've seen people take this challenge from you and others. The issue is that it never gets them anywhere. Part of a standard of asking for evidence is that if its provided the requesting person should either change their views or provide counter evidence of their own.
So you're asking people to take time to record and upload a few matches that inevitably won't actually get them anywhere. Why would they do that?
The never provided evidence goes both ways. I want to see the legendary MMR some killers talk about where they face match after match of nothing but cracked survivors.
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There have been like two people, ever, who actually responded when I posed this challenge to them. Even just taking a simple screen shot and posting some killer stats would be sufficient in a lot of cases. There are some forum members who tend to be more sympathetic to the survivor side but very clearly play a lot of killer as well, as evidenced either by their knowledge or actually posting their stats. I respect that a lot.
What really grinds me is the folks who come here with the sole purpose of stirring up “us vs them” toxicity, using literally every single post or comment to demonize the other side, claim that BHVR loves the other side and hates their side, etc. It’s super toxic and divisive but I suppose as long as it’s not breaking forum rules, nothing we can do other than try to call them out on it in a respectful way.
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I am on the same servers. These times can vary very quickly. The website has social media where they leave a log. On Dublin for example, just 16 hours ago Killers had 6 seconds and Survivors 3 minutes. Just one snapshot doesnt show the general trend.
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Deathgarden was so heavily survivor-sided that I played two matches and never touched it again. If, in game with that name, survivors swarm the "killer" and stunlock him after only DAYS of the game being playable, that's a problem.Deathgarden went through a few different versions so not sure which one you played. I played Bloodharvest and while the Hunter took a few games to get the mechanics down, they were the much stronger role, though the version before that was very different.
Also though, not even the point I was discussing. It wasn't about strength of the roles, it was about the 'kindness of players' and that Deathgarden had a mercy mechanic were killers were expected to let scavs back up instead of killing them in return for more points.
The problem is just that instead of tweaking the basics, they make increasingly powerful but boring killers. How many Houndmasters, Vecnas, Draculas or Chuckys have you seen lately? Because they are boring.And how many Trappers, Hillbillys, Spirits, Onis, Doctors? Because they are weak.The only old killer that is good AND fun AND fair is Huntress.You're combining fun and strong which makes it harder to discuss, but you're saying Billy and Spirt are weak?
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"I've got a fantastic gameplan: I'm not going to do any gens, and I'm just going to run at the killer instead!"
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Do you think Matthew Cote walked into the meeting room and said "you know these anti-tunnel and anti-slugging changes we proposed even tho we only cater to killers? Well the community didn't like the execution and wanted different kinds of changes to help with these issues, so while we work on these we should hyperbuff slugging and tunneling and lets do that by keeping the rework of two perks we reworked for the PTB, and further adjusting one two weeks later?"
I know it sounds really stupid and outlandish, but this is a legitimate approximation of what happened.
They put out anti-tunnel/slugging changes, shifted the core function of two counter-perks over to the basekit of these changes, got backlash, removed the changes, and then consciously made the decision to not restore the core function of these counter-perks. And they haven't committed to reversion, either, just making some vague mention of 'changes', which notably aren't even in the first patch.
Again, this patch was supposed to help survivors deal with tunnelling and slugging, and instead wound up deleting two tools they have to deal with it.
Just as a reminder, you said this:
If they had playtested this patch without the anti-tunnel changes and had listened to those playtesters, it probably would have gotten reverted.
But we have tested them now and so far, in their communication, they haven't made any mention of a reversion. This isn't some 'oopsiedoodle' by the dev team, they consciously decided to gut these perks.
This is still one patch. Yeah this one is Killer sided. That doesn't mean there is a trend for Killer sided updates.
I don't think I said that.
Devs kinda did though.
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I believe this statement actually starts with the phrase "hold my beer".
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For the last 3 years, we've been led to believe that queue times were the most important thing in the game. But that hasn't seemed to be the case at all lately. Part of me wonders if that was just an excuse.
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Let them kill their own game, it deserves it at this point. Survivor is the worst dogwater experience in any pvp game
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"But we have tested them now and so far, in their communication, they haven't made any mention of a reversion. This isn't some 'oopsiedoodle' by the dev team, they consciously decided to gut these perks."
There is a difference between PTB, and live. There is a reason they put Clown on this PTB instead of just adding slower yellow activation time to live.
"I don't think I said that.
Devs kinda did though."
The post has said this. And by saying that you think the devs did say they do Killer sided patches you admit that you believe that too. Based on two perks being changed.
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Pictured: Disgusting SWF
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Because there's no challenge in it and I feel bad doing it.
I've got two options for playing Killer. I can either handicap myself to allow the Survivors a chance, which doesn't feel good for me since I'm not really playing the game, OR, I can go full tilt at a bunch of random and absolutely slaughter them with no resistance.
That isnt fun and it's hardly PVP. I don't like to beat up on less experienced players.
Killer is undeniably easier than Survivor, by design. A rather large flip from when I started.
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The post has said this. And by saying that you think the devs did say they do Killer sided patches you admit that you believe that too. Based on two perks being changed.
No, based on Peanits saying 'we're balancing in favour of the killer'.
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I literally do. It’s brain dead easy, hard tunnel one person out slug 1 constantly out of the remaining 3, rinse repeat win 99% of your games.
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The most important thing in the game is clearly feedback from Otz and friends(other content creators).
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Could you provide a source for that quote?
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It was recently pulled up again, but it's the 60/40 killrate balancing. It was in a patchnote announcement.
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People say this about the queue times, but the killler queues in my time zone at night are instant. There's often a bonus on killler. That's when all the friends are partying up. It's the ability to play with friends that's keeping the role alive. If something bugged out with he partying system and no one could join together the game would then collapse. I don't see there being enough people willing to endure soloq to keep it afloat.
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If, during peak hours for the game, the queue times for Killers are horrid, then that means there are not enough Survivors playing versus the number of Killers playing. In all dying games stuff like this fluctuates - it's why we're talking about the peak hours, when the majority of players are playing, when we bring up queue times. Queue times during this point are the biggest indicator of how well or poorly a game is performing - the fact there are so few Survivors who even want to play during peak hours is a problem that should actually be taken seriously.
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I get it, I just haven't experienced it despite hearing about it a lot, and I play just about everyday, somewhere between 5pm and 5am. My survivor matches tend to take longer to queue up. Maybe it's my region's server idk.
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I just stopped playing for the time being. I am not ready to uninstall yet, but other games get priority now.
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Easier than Survivor? By what metric? 70% of Survivor gameplay is literally just running from Point A to Point B or holding M1. You can be terrible at running the Killer or countering their power and still win pretty regularly as Survivor- I do it all the time.
You have no such luxury as Killer. Your objective isn't an inanimate object on the map that you hold M1 at- your objectives will actively run away from you and drop pallets on your head. If you can't win chases, you'll invariably lose badly.
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That's fair. I normally play during peak hours when I play Killer (I'm usually doing other things at night, like the current patch of HSR, for example), so I experience it quite often. The shortest amount of time I've found a match was 5 minutes, while the longest was about 10 minutes - to be honest, I thought my wifi had crapped out or something and it hadn't told me when that happened.
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Yes, the Survivor's gameplay is severely limited and simple, but it's not like it's easier than Killer because of that. There are plenty of builds that Killers can use that make playing Survivor a nightmare, plus various Killers whose base kit alone make it simply too easy for them. Yes, on the weaker Killers you have to work more, and maybe it's just a matter of skill, but I've never had trouble as Killer. My kill rate, at least according to their stat website, is 65%, and that's without running meta builds or even using add-ons. Again, I get this may just be a simple difference in skill, but Killer is simply too easy.
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My kill rate is similar, but I've almost never felt like a Killer match was actually easy. I had to work for those kills. If at any moment I wasn't paying attention or I made a mistake, it'd cost me.
Whereas in many if not most of my Survivor matches, including the ones where I escaped and/or we got 3/4 people out- I felt like I could basically just turn off my brain and hold M1 for the majority of the match.
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Easier to get a favorable outcome, its relatively easy to pick up someone like Ghoul or Wraith and do quite well. Very difficult to play Survivor, partially because of the team-based nature, but also because of the learning curve.
Regardless, we see it clearly represented in the stats.
Now, if it had been 2018-2021, I would have agreed that Killer was more difficult, but that simply isnt the case anymore. Killer has been made far easier and far less punishing.
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Just because a role wins more often doesn't make it easier.
Shin Megami Tensei 3 often feels hard because you will lose quite frequently (Especially on the hardest difficulty), but as I continued to play, I realized that a lot of your defeats will be due to random factors entirely outside of your control.
It's common for a random encounter to kill your character on the first turn, before the player even has a chance to fight back. And it's often possible to make no mistakes when preparing for or playing a boss battle, but still lose because the RNG was feeling unmerciful.
Does that make SMT3 a difficult game? Being defeated by random BS through no fault of your own? Because that's largely what makes playing Survivor "difficult", especially in solo queue. It's a team game, and a lot of the time you simply have to hope your team doesn't let you down, even if you played the game virtually flawlessly.
Besides, DbD has had a near-60% kill rate throughout almost its entire lifespan. So using your logic, has Killer always been almost exactly as difficult as it is now? Have all the myriad changes to both sides throughout DbD's entire history had no significant effect on the difficulty of playing either role? Does that sound credible to you?
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Killer used to be balanced around a 50/50 style, now it is not the case.
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Okay? So are you going to address anything else that I said?
Is playing a slot machine "difficult" because you're more likely to lose than to win? Because pulling a slot machine's lever has about the same level of difficulty as holding M1 on a gen.
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Bro you could spawn survivors on hook at the start of the game and these people will still call killer hard and dbd survivor sided. There’s no point
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I am on mobile; it will take me a moment.
Yes, even artificial difficulty is still difficulty. When two sides have different rates of achieving the same outcome (a win), it is fair to say that one side is more difficult to achieve that outcome.
I think you are underselling how difficult good Survivor gameplay is, especially in the current era of DBD. Not only do you need to be good enough to either stall or prevent a tunnel, which is a lot already, but you also need to either have a great team of equally skilled players OR somehow be good enough to win despite it. Even focusing on the Solo aspect, you need to have map knowledge, perk knowledge, Killer knowledge and strategy knowledge to be able to succeed consistently.
Killer is a bit more straight-forward. There's still a huge knowledge barrier, but the skill required to execute successful tunnel-outs or camps is drastically less than it takes to counter those tactics.
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There is always a point in discussion.
When people stop talking, criticizing or discussing; we get half-baked bad ideas.
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… honest to God, is this actually a problem for you? Because while I've had some premade survivors that were frustrating to face, what you're describing has never been a problem for me because it's so damn obvious what's happening that I just don't touch them unless they intentionally get into smacking range. If they spend 70 seconds running next to me to take a hit, that's 70 seconds there's 2 survivors in chase, which is good for me. And if they're stupid enough to get into range and get hit without me having to chase them, that's value for me, not for them.
If anything, I'd say in your situation you're the one supposed to be punished because you saw a recently unhooked survivor make a beeline straight towards you and your first thought was "wow, they're so dumb, I'm going to waste time stalking them. I'm so smart".
If that isn't getting outsmarted, I don't know what is.
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Saying "artificial difficulty is still difficulty" is twisting the definition of "difficulty" to be almost meaningless. Again, by that definition, playing a slot machine is difficult.
Survivor takes skill to win in the same sense that killers like Cannibal, Legion, and Wraith take skill to win with.
Most of Survivor's basekit abilities are easy to learn and not very difficult to master. Again, 70% of Survivor gameplay is literally just going from Point A to Point B and holding M1.
The challenge of playing Survivor (Much like playing an easy-but-weak Killer) at higher skill levels mostly comes from working around the built-in limitations in their kit and squeezing out little advantages from the few places that do allow skill expression. Doing gens and healing takes roughly the same amount of time whether you're a new player who's just learned to hit skill checks or a tournament-level Survivor. So the main difference between a good and average Survivor is the other 30%- running the Killer, doing saves, doing bodyblocks.
So which is more difficult- a role that needs to play skillfully roughly 30% of the time, or a role that needs to play skillfully roughly 80-90% of the time? Because about the only time a Killer doesn't need to be expressing their skill in some way is when they're carrying a Survivor to the hook, downing someone out in the open, or camping the hook during the endgame.
There's almost always decisions to be made- where to patrol, who to chase, how to run a loop, how to use your power, when to lunge, whether to break or leave a pallet, whether to slug or hook somebody, whether to proxy camp or commit to a new chase, whether to kick a generator or keep moving, whether to tunnel or spread hooks, whether to leave a Survivor with an injury or commit to a down, whether to hit a bodyblocker or try to path around them. And the answer to all of those questions will vary depending on the circumstances the Killer finds themself in.
A Killer easily makes hundreds of little decisions in real time throughout a match, at almost every stage of the game. Whereas a Survivor, for a significant percentage of the match, will be doing nothing but holding M1, keeping an eye out for the Killer, and keeping an eye on their HUD. There's no real decisions to be made, apart from planning your next move after your current task is done.
Saying the latter is more difficult is patently ridiculous.
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OTR isn't 'god mode' any more than a survivor being at full health is 'god mode'. Just hit them twice. Seriously, why do people treat endurance like it's some unbeatable thing?
Annoying sometimes? Maybe. God mode? Ridiculous.
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Well, ask yourself why pre-nerf Dead Hard was so popular and powerful, even at the highest levels of play.
Even a single extra health state can decide the outcome of a match, particularly against Killers that already struggle to get hits in a timely manner. When you're playing Killer, every second counts.
This is also one of the main reasons why overtuned healing perks like pre-nerf Circle of Healing were a problem, by the way. When Survivors can consistently heal injuries faster than the Killer can make them, things get pretty brutal for the Killer.
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Pre-nerf Dead Hard was more for making distance. If anything, it's new Dead Hard that's more centered around endurance. Aside from that the circumstances around OTR's activation are a little different from Dead Hard.
My argument isn't that it's useless or anything, just that it's not the state of invincibility that some seem to portray it as. It only protects against one hit - that doesn't qualify it as 'god mode'.
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It's not god mode, but you wouldn't know it from how some Survivors use it. Survivors tend to play a lot more boldly with OTR than without it, I can tell you that. One factor in that is that instead of being injured and needing to heal, Survivors only get Deep Wounds and need to Mend after taking an Endurance Hit. And since you can Mend yourself without assistance, it generally takes a lot less time than healing.
To understand how impactful an extra health state can be, though, I think it's helpful to think about how snowbally DbD is as a game, how small advantages can compound to have a big impact.
Let's say for the sake of argument that it's the start of the match, the first survivor to be chased (We'll call him David) has Endurance (e.g. From pre-nerf Dead Hard), that the Survivors split perfectly on gens, and that once a chase has started, it takes 15 seconds per health state for the Killer to win the chase.
So, the first chase starts. One survivor is being chased, and the other 3 are all doing their own individual gens. So, how much time does David's one extra health state buy for David's team? Since it takes 15 seconds for the Killer to take a health state, that's an extra 15 seconds before David's team has to go unhook him (Which means one of them has to stop doing gens), and an extra 15 seconds before the Killer starts chasing someone else (Which pulls another one of them off the gens).
So, David's Endurance bought his team an extra 15 seconds where the rest of his team is free to do gens. So, that's a total of 45 seconds of gen time. That one use of Endurance cost the Killer half a generator.
And that's being generous with the chase times- 15 seconds is a pretty short time for most Killers to take a health state, and there's no guarantee the Killer will be able to finish the chase after Endurance activates- the Survivor might make it to a strong main building thanks to the Endurance and force the Killer to drop chase.
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You simultaneously hype up Killer gameplay while downplaying Survivor.
Working on the wrong gen is disastrous. You need to know which gens are which and what to work on. Skill expression. You need to be able to identify and break 3 gens. Skill expression. You need to rotate effectively. Skill expression. You need to unhook correctly and then make a judgment call. Skill expression.
Just because you dislike the role or find it boring does not mean it can be simplified into "70% no skill".
For example, it makes perfect sense even to a new Killer to tunnel. They wouldn't call it that, but they'd see an injured person off of hook and a healthy person unhooking and choose the injured player. Same with camping. If people are in the area, a new Killer will park their ass right next to hook.
These are obvious plays that the game seems to encourage. Survivor gameplay is much different. Perhaps less mechanically intensive but no less skillful.
The skill is in different areas. You seem to be conflating mechanical skill as the only type that matters, which is simply wrong.
Post edited by Pulsar on20 -
Are you sure about that:
Coz its still like that. This is one of the rare days the extra server is on too
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I am sure. If you keep checking at the same time of day, it's going to stay the same. In the late evening for example killer reguarly goes down to 6 seconds.
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Hello! 👋 I’m not the original person you replied to and I don’t believe we’ve ever conversed before. Nice to meet you.
I’m just hoping for some clarification on what you mean here, to ensure I’m not misunderstanding. Are you saying that the survivor role is only difficult 30% of the time, and that 70% there is no skill involved?9 -
Let me rephrase that:
Billy and Spirit have a very high skill ceiling, making them good when the killer player is good, and terrible if the player has not practiced them a lot. They are powerful, but hard to pick up because you need a lot of experience with them. Unless you focus on mastering them or play really a LOT, they are weak (in your hands).
I have been playing DBD since pre-nurse, but never really touched Billy, back then I played mostly Trapper. Yesterday I took a swing at him. It took me several matches until I realized that he is basically unplayable without the Counterweight add-on, and that's just pre-game decisions. Misuse their powers one times too often, and you lose the match with no comeback because it costs you so much time and can end you up in the wrong corner of the map.
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You have to identify the right gens to work on… and then you spend 90 seconds standing still, holding M1 and making no meaningful decisions.
You have to identify and break a 3-gen… and then you spend 90 seconds standing still, holding M1 and making no meaningful decisions.
You have to rotate correctly… and then you spend 90 seconds standing still, holding M1 and making no meaningful decisions.
If you genuinely find that difficult or stressful, maybe video games just aren't for you.
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agreed, we should go back to 60 second gens
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If you aren't looking to have a thoughtful and in depth discussion in good faith, I'd appreciate a warning that you are looking to vent, not discuss.
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Splitting hairs again, soz. But Dead Hard has always been more of a skill perk. Most people would panic and bump into walls using it and in the wrong hands Sprint Burst or Lithe were always more practical. The main issue was that DH was being used to win palette races, so it was nerfed so that Killer wins those more often than not.
Now, like @MDRSan said, it's about endurance and it requires even more skill to use. I'd say its only rival in that department is Hyperfocus, but that's a lot more boring to use so you never see it.
He's right you know. Gens are boring, but if you think there's no tact in deciding which gens to work on and when, you don't get it. In a lot of ways, DBD has shifted focus over the years to where the macro play is more on the side of Survivor and the micro is more on the side of Killer. Which makes no sense, but y'know.
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