http://dbd.game/killswitch
So... when is the anti-tunnel and anti-slug measures BHVR promised is coming in...?
Comments
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Judging by community feedback, bully squads aren’t a problem because it’s fun for survivors. It’s like how killers can’t complain about generator speeds, without people telling them that gen rushing is a hyper specific thing, and they weren’t “really” being gen rushed.
And remember that a lot of ragequitting threads get closed for breaking forum rules, and a lot of comments about ragequitting get closed for breaking forum rules.
And are you seriously saying you don’t see people over exaggerating the Go Next false positives? You don’t see people saying things like “I can’t believe people keep getting punished for getting tunneled out of the game”????
Go Next should be allowed to be more harsh, without people constantly complaining that it “already has too many false positives”.
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I'm not going to feed the troll here, but just to also point out:
And why isn’t bully squads on the official roadmap?
It's not on the road map because it's been addressed directly every time.
Boil over buff reverted very quickly when it was a problem (2 weeks).
Base kit light born on locker grab to effectively delete double locker saves.
RPD library was reworked to have a hook, which was then immediately abused by killers, before they finally deleted the upper library entirely.
Infinite locker glitches got kill switched same day and fixed.
Hooks respawn to make sure there are no dead zones, even if a survivor died on hook.
Maps are smaller to mitigate hook dead zones. (Admittedly, current pallet spawns is messing with this, which is actually 2 issues once they fix pallets).
So yeah, there's no road map for "bully squads" because they actually fix it, and quickly if it's actually an issue.
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It's always been like this with threads about survivor concerns. People who don't even touch the role can't stay in their lanes. I remember having this exact same conversation a couple of years ago.
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The thread was started regarding the anti-tunnel and anti-slugging changes. You derailed it into ragequitting. Now you're derailing it into bully squads. You can't just make your own threads about those topics?
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And this is exactly what I’m talking about. If killers complain about bully squads, they get told it’s not a real problem.
And if killers complain about gen rushing, they get told it’s not a real problem.
The main theme is killer problems “aren’t real”, and BHVR shouldn’t spend time fixing them, and instead, all the time and effort should be spent on making the survivor experience better.
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The point isn't "killer problems aren't real", the point is YOU on a thread about survivor issues trying to derail the entire discussion to talk about anything but survivor issues.
If you think that bully squads, or gen rushing are a problem, make a thread about those issues to discuss it. Don't repeatedly derail a different thread talking about problems that are impacting predominantly survivor players. I don't think anyone in this thread is saying that killer is a perfect role and that there aren't issues there that probably need to be addressed by the devs.
But this isn't the time or place for those conversations, especially when they're only brought up to draw attention away from issues other people are having.
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You responded to a comment literally listing various fixes to bully squads with "BHVR never does anything to fix bully squads!" while also proving AmpersandUnderscore's previous comment about derailing the thread about tunneling. I am truly flabbergasted here.
Also, if "most" Survivors play out their matches, that would imply that ragequitting isn't as big of an issue, meaning that the current penalties are doing their job just fine. So why are you advocating for harsher punishments?
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Judging by community feedback, bully squads aren’t a problem because it’s fun for survivors.
No, it's not a problem because killers don't care.
Aside from you bringing it up exclusively to derail threads about tunnelling, how often do you see complaints about bully squads?
It’s like how killers can’t complain about generator speeds, without people telling them that gen rushing is a hyper specific thing, and they weren’t “really” being gen rushed.
Because every single time, it comes down to 'gens got done and I lost, fix it', with nothing further to add. It's people taking an issue with the survivors having the ability to win the game at all, and that's not something that can be 'fixed'.
And remember that a lot of ragequitting threads get closed for breaking forum rules, and a lot of comments about ragequitting get closed for breaking forum rules.
I can't remember what hasn't happened.
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The forum is not made up of killers and survivors.
Whatever opinion you post, someone will disagree with it. That's normal. An individual disagrees with you.
People complain about tunneling. Someone will disagree and say its not a problem.
People complain about gen speeds. Someone will disagree and say its not a problem.
People complain about Nurse. Someone will disagree and say she's not a problem.
People about SWFs. Someone will disagree and say they aren't a problem.
That's how a discussion forum should work. Different people have different views that are usually pretty nuanced and people can't just be split into two camps. It just creates a strawman fallacy and no real discussion.
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Because we’ve had multiple people on these forums, admitting to frequently ragequitting, or admitting they have a friend that frequently ragequits.
Making a thread doesn’t work, because it will get derailed by people telling us the problems aren’t real.
And we’re even being told in this thread that ragequitting isn’t a real problem. And if people create threads to complain about ragequitters, they get derailed too.Notice the theme here? Anything survivors do is “not a problem”
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Anything survivors do is “not a problem”
For the most part, survivors are pretty much cornered these days, and the only thing they can do is gens. Anything else isn't a problem for the killer side, because that would actually be more beneficial to the killer than it is for the survivors. A survivor not on a gen is not helping their team, unless they can save the poor sod that is being tunneled by the killer.
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As sad as I am to say this, while the forum is meant for discussions, feedback and opinions, all of us are currently just feeding the fight (I gave up trying after seeing like a dozen thread get derailed like this and three get entirely closed).
When reasoning with the mentality that "not enough innocents are being punished to matter, so the punishement system is fine, also most people are lying about being innocents and getting false-flagged and are actually frequent ragequitters." There's really no point to continue trying after several threads.
This thread is about the anti-tunnel system (and how it can be properly implemented next time so it doesn't mess with normal gameplay and create lose-lose situations) and its consequences when it eventually comes back out of the metaphorical oven. What are our thoughts?
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Making a thread doesn’t work, because it will get derailed by people telling us the problems aren’t real.
How do you know it will get derailed if you never make a thread?
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As far as the tunneling reduction system is concerned, the only thing that really needed to remove was the removal of the blocking or regressing gens if a Survivor dies before six hooks. That may have taken it one step too far. Aside from that, the system was fine, IMO.
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Because other people already made threads that got derailed and deleted.
You’re still dismissing killer concerns as not a problem. It’s the whole mindset that killer problems “aren’t as important” as survivor problems. And if someone tries to talk about anything involving survivor nerfs, they get told the camping/slugging/tunneling update is more important T and should happen first.
Considering what happened to the phase 1 changes, the phase 2 changes shouldn’t be punishing innocent killers. Which means anti-slugging shouldn’t happen if the killer is forced to slug. It also means that none of these changes should be allowed to be weaponized by survivors.
It also means acknowledging the fact that a lot of survivors are going to complain that the changes aren’t enough, and will still claim that survivors are ragequitting because the changes weren’t enough.
It also means acknowledging that the phase 2 incentives were absolute garbage, and nowhere near good enough. Killers got nerfed BBQ, that was completely unreliable, easily dodged, and often showed zero survivors. It was horrible.
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What are our thoughts?
My main question about this is what problems are we looking to fix?
I saw an awful lot of panic, and basically zero actual experiences with how it played out on the PTB. Probably because they pulled the plug instantly without actually testing much.
The main things I think need to change would be:
Base kit tenacity is not necessary (moving while recovering, specifically). It punishes legitimate slugging (short term) because they can both move and recover, and for excessive slugging it's going to be long enough that recovering and then moving isn't a problem. It's backwards and unnecessary, but removing that isn't a huge deal either.
Elusive should also include not attackable. It isn't enough to just lose collision, you need to basically be not attackable or it defeats the whole point.
Most other things I saw were on the level of "but plot twist and no mither counters corrupt intervention" where, yeah maybe, but no one actually does this. Specifically, the panic over "but survivors will die to give the others the buff", which is a huge net loss for the survivor team, and no one will actually play this way outside of testing to verify that, yes, this loses you the game.
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Survivors would just weaponize that version of Elusive. If there is a survivor under an undropped pallet, the Elusive survivor could just stand next to it, and the killer would have zero counterplay because the killer isn’t allowed to hit the Elusive survivor, but the Elusive survivor is allowed to pallet save their teammate.
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Your mistake was telling survivors to stop picking paper and to start picking rock if they know killers pick scissors all the time.
Survivors don't like being told to think about perk choices, and don't you dare ask them give up a chase or gen rush perk.
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It took one of the lead devs of DBD getting publicly bullied on a livestream by an instablind flashlight SWF for instablind flashlights to finally get removed after they had been in the game for way too long already.
The best part is, he queued in the public matchmaking queue for a random game, and he did so shortly after saying instablind flashlights weren't a major problem.
Within a month, instablind flashlights were dead and Hag (the killer he played that match) got a few buffs.
During the infamous Chandler Riggs stream, BHVR was very publicly embarrassed by their lackluster security measures to the point that they had a fix pushed out within a week after the stream, but the issue had been in the game for literal years by that point with no action until it made BHVR look bad.
There are at least a few other instances I'm not thinking of right now where other things only got fixed after years of being broken only because an incident publicly embarrassed BHVR to the point they had to take action.
My point is that just because BHVR doesn't think something is a problem doesn't mean it's not a problem.
It just means the problem hasn't resulted in BHVR getting publicly embarrassed yet.
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This is a lot of words to say literally nothing.
I know about those instances, and those are specific.
So I'll ask again: what, exactly, are the problems with the anti tunneling/anti slug systems are we looking to fix?
Because so far, the only thing I have seen, and the only things that people can bring up is "don't do it or I'll quit". That level of entitlement isn't something the devs can fix beyond continuing to cater to it. Which is what those people want.
So, what actually happened in PTB matches that we should talk about fixing? Video of it happening would be great.
Because "don't do anything" is all in hearing from detractors. Literally zero constructive anything, and nothing actionable.
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I won't pretend that people don't leave winnable games all of the time, but if you develop any game sense with DBD you learn when a match is over and when it's not with only a slight margin of error. I think that's something that's missing from the conversation a lot.
The thing is any time those sorts of systems that are commonplace in other games have been implemented into DBD, it's a disaster. DBD has always seemed to do better with systems that don't really appear to be viable in most PVP games. Plus, beyond the problems presented with the genre alone, the game also isn't in a balanced enough state to handle systems like that.
If you want to try them anyway, you have to think of it like this: a Band-Aid can fix a boo-boo, but it can't fix a gash. You need to address the larger issues first before simpler fixes have any impact.
I know I get a lot of heat for it, but there really is some psychological component to Killer mains that I don't fully understand. But it does manifest often times as looking like main character syndrome. And I think appealing to that as strongly as BHVR has for the last several years is really aging the game incredibly fast.
I believe fun is lacking, so naturally I think most players don't have fun. They want to have fun, but that's not the same thing. As far as most players not quitting early, I have no idea how to answer that because it feels like the opposite argument you were making just a few posts ago.
You can't address behavior, only the tools used. We saw the evidence of that with anti-go next. Those tools can be addressed and they often have. With camping/tunneling/slugging, it's a little different. We did have the tools and now we don't. It's time to address that.
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Do you personally think the majority of survivors or frequently ragequitting?
Because if you don’t personally think the majority of survivors are frequently ragequitting, even though some of their games are frustrating, then why is it they can’t manage to play through their games?
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Your arguments in particular are so biased and so out-of-touch (even with yourself) that people are finding it harder and harder to take any of your arguments seriously anymore.
So you may be correct that if you tried to start a topic about bully squads, you may not gain much sympathy. But that's largely because you show less than zero empathy for other players in general.
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I wouldn't say the majority. At least not anymore since the changes. But I also don't think it's a rare thing either.
Those are two different arguments. Ragequitting is a symptom of what I already said is the biggest issue: a lack of fun. There are multiple ways you can express that. I'd say most of us here would know exactly what I'm talking about when I say, "play one trial, sit in the menus for an hour". There's also ways to give up in the trial without leaving, including sitting on a gen until you're ripped off of it, antagonizing the Killer for fun, sandbagging, refusing to touch gens and focusing on side objectives only, AFKing, etc.
As to why they stay, Survivors are historically resilient. Those first two weeks of 6.1.0 were BRUTAL and yet they still queued up. Even now with all of these anti-health health changes, they're still queueing up. A lot less for sure, but they're still here. However I think expecting them to stick around forever without throwing them a bone (or giving them something like the pallet update which we all know isn't gonna last for long) is unrealistic. The anti-tunnel/slug system was putting a good step forward toward solving that problem, but we saw how that turned out.
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Has the conversation been detailed because people are trying to justify slugging and tunneling against 'bullying' or 'toxic' survivor squads? That, because the viewpoint is that until they fix bullying by survivors, tunneling and slugging can't go away?
...And even though, as others have pointed out, they have made adjustments to help resolve squad's that are bullying, it's not fun to play in a game where everyone rage quits against a slugging or tunneling killer. Or that it's completely justified to slug and tunnel; people should be forced to stay in that game?
Post edited by joeyspeehole on3 -
It's wild that you said this and then the champion of derailing and distracting, right below your comment, again shifts to some irrelevant topic.
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No, it's not a problem because killers don't care.
This is true for me. I couldn't care less about bully squads and I dont know who really does. Honestly, I wish I'd land one, but MMR doesn't seem to feed them to me anymore. I can't remember the last time I saw one. Bully squads are a noob problem.
But tunneling, I do care about. I see it every time I play survivor. It's more common, effects players throughout MMR levels, and is harder to deal with.
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I don't care much for bully squads either, and they are not common to see.
Every so often I might run into the odd team of flashlights + head ons, but they are really easy to play around.
And like you said, tunneling is a huge pain-point, especially among survivors. I don't tunnel when I play killer, and I honestly have no intention to do so either, because I know how terrible I feel as a survivor on the receiving end.And lastly, tunneling is absolutely zero fun.
Zero fun often leads to DC's
DC's leads to eventual penalties
Penalties ultimately leads to people quitting.
Solution = Make tunneling less effective, and in turn, less prevalent.4 -
idk i've started to believe there's an bias by the development team against survivors there's many examples like fog vials, but also how tenacity and OTR were nerfed even with no anti tunneling or slug changes but they didn't nerf the killer perks that also would have been affected by those changes but they did that to survivors lol.
many such cases, they're piling up now actually.
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I assume they're biased towards money, and the killer role does the selling.
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I have also noticed a trend with content creators on Youtube for instance often release more killer-biased content instead of survivor-biased content. And with those kinds of loud prominent voices, it is easy to get drowned out as someone who is advocating for good survivor changes.
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The phase 2 changes were completely out of control, and the people that thought they were fine as they were, are the real biased people.
I can’t even imagine being so survivor sided, to think the phase 2 changes would have been healthy for the game, if they went live as they were on the PTB.
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And people are asking for the same mistake to be made in phase 2. Half backed solutions that hurt the game more than helps. Instead of making bad changes and ripping them out a week later, lets test thing out in the PTB where issues can be discovered and resolved.
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I couldn't care less about bully squads and I dont know who really does. Honestly, I wish I'd land one, but MMR doesn't seem to feed them to me anymore.I had one a little bit back (first game on killer in a while actually). Three survivors with flashlights, head on or background player, flashbangs, slow leaving lockers, etc. while the 4th did the gens.
It was fine. I get that some people feel like it breaks the 'immersion' of the killer role as survivors don't just run away, but in terms of game mechanics it has more elements to the gameplay.
I also 4ked with Sadako because only one person on gens gave me time to push until they made a mistake. Probably should have been just a 2k, but they went all out on a 4e.
Bully squads are a noob problem.My only issue with them is the ones who don't even try and win and are happy to intentionally stay at low MMR to bully new killers, but this is likely an incredibly rare occurrence.
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I think this term gets thrown about far too liberally. I don't consider aggressive playing to be bullying. They're just confident, coordinated, and capable. I dont approach survivor like that but good for them.
And I think it's as you say, many killers want survivors to scatter in terror from them, not just defiantly stare at them.
My only issue with them is the ones who don't even try and win and are happy to intentionally stay at low MMR to bully new killers, but this is likely an incredibly rare occurrence.
This is the only thing I consider a bully squad. They're going for weak, new killers who don't understand how to deal with sabos, pallet saves, or flashlights. It's not bullying unless your victim is weaker than you.
I probably do come across these teams sometimes and they're simply so ineffectual that I don't even notice. Running Lightborn (and currently Weave and, sometimes, Forced Hesitation) makes these plays not just useless but detrimental, because I see them behind the rock with the Weave and the Hesitation slows them down for me to hit them.
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To piggyback off of this as well, the results typically aren't the same. I'd be willing to bet bully squads lose more often than not because of the amount of resources it takes to maintain that playstyle, while hardcore camping/tunneling/slugging (at least in my experience) wins more trials because of how difficult it is to combat while cranking out all 5 gens and opening the gates.
It's essentially "I really hate dealing with these a-holes but at least I stomped them" vs. "I really hate dealing with this a-hole and there was nothing I could do about it". That impacts players very differently.
I would agree there too.
Of course you couldn't because I don't think you care about Survivor. I don't hold that against you either. But I'm telling it like it is.
That's where I think pulling it overall was a good idea. What shot their credibility for me however, was how quickly they pulled it and how some of the Survivor nerfs still made it through anyway. Personally it reads less like they want to encourage health and more like they don't want to piss off the wrong people.
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They needed adjustments, which could've been tested on the PTB.
Instead, the screeching and crying won over, BHVR instantly pulled them, and I doubt we'll be seeing them for quite a long time.
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They needed way more than minor adjustments that could be quickly figured out. They were so far out of control, that they need massive reworks.
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Very untrue.
Simple number tweaks would have fixed the system.
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Incorrect. Considering the massive amount of backlash and negative feedback it got, minor changes absolutely would not have fixed the system.
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If we based everything off of loudness of feedback, we'd have a very different game.
I did not say minor changes, I said simple.
They are not the same thing.
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By that logic, reverting the PTB was a simple change that fixed the system.
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I know I get a lot of heat for it, but there really is some psychological component to Killer mains that I don't fully understand. But it does manifest often times as looking like main character syndrome. And I think appealing to that as strongly as BHVR has for the last several years is really aging the game incredibly fast.
I'm going to disclaimer and say that I fully recognize that this isn't a blanket statement, but it does seem to apply to a small, select (and insanely loud) group. I take that to be what you meant too, but just for anyone else reading, to be clear.
I read it as an ego thing for some people, or possibly narcissism. Some takes on here just don't make sense unless you consider that select individuals begin with the premise that they are "Max MMR" gods at the game, and are entitled to win every match.
If they lose, or even struggle, in even one single match, it can't be that they have to improve... That's impossible, because you can't improve on perfection. The only solution to this is that the game inherently must be unfair.
And, because this is a wound to ego (or in some cases narcissistic injury), it gets expressed as pure emotional response, usually anger and outrage.
Which is also why this group is dead set against anything that isn't a pure killer buff or survivor nerf.
They've deluded themselves into believing that the game is broken already, because the only other option is that they, maybe, possibly, might not be as good at the game as they think they are.
And that's not even something they can consider.
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And got us back to a system that was wildly and loudly hated, which by your own logic, means we MUST change it.
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My feelings exactly. I do understand that the blocking etc was purely so a 3v1 is no longer simply a loss, that the 3 survivors do still have a chance. That's still necessary but ill leave the devs to work out the logistics on that one.
Re anti-slug, I actually thought it was fine to release as is and then make adjustments later (the primary pain point, based on feedback i saw, seemed to be the basekit tenacity).
So you're aware of how much it sucks, yet made it your own personal mission to do the same to other threads?
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I'm curious what tweaks you have in mind here, can you go into more detail?
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It's not the same level at all. If the phase 2 changes had gone live, there would have been massive queue time problems, and the entire chapter launch would have been a disaster. It would have cost BHVR a lot of money to have all that happen on the launch day of a new chapter.
The game is actually stable as it is right now.
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I've had conversations with friends about this. The killer role, being a solo power role that is essentially the central focal point of the match around which everything else revolves, attracts a certain sort of person. It has to be a minority. I'm far from the type, and many killer players express a sort of performance anxiety on the forums. I just like horror, and I was a killer-only player for awhile because I did so bad at everything in survivor that I didn't want to be damaging to a team. I preffered being responsible solely for my own outcome. But some of these people have projected themselves onto these killers in kind of a creepy way and any threat to the identity they associate with winning as them is earth shattering.
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Yup, I'm similar. I played the game for about two years before I touched killer for the first time, mostly because of the anxiety.
But I enjoy it now mostly because I can at least mostly have some input about how fun the match is for everyone. I generally don't sweat, although if the survivors are going for a more serious game I'll step it up and give it my best.
But I think the biggest thing for me is that I don't get bent out of shape by losing a match. Maybe it's because of all the time I spent dying on survivor, or I just look at it differently: if the match gameplay is fun, I don't really care about the final scoreboard.
That whole "don't mind losing occasionally" is something that varies by person, and everyone gets fatigued by losing streaks, but some people do seem to get set off completely by one game out of dozens of wins.
I think for some people it's ego, some it's, like you said, over committing to the role. There are, thankfully few, but unfortunately more than zero, players who confuse "playing as your favorite emotionless psychopath" with "playing like your favorite emotionless psychopath".
And, still others, who take the power role too far and consider themselves to be in control of the devs also, which is where the "nice game, be a shame if anything happened to it" mentality seems to come from on here.
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Elusive is the only one that needs some more changes, stuff that isn't simple number tweaks, so I'll start there.
Give it the Incapacitated effect as a placeholder. This prevents Item usage.
Remove auto-aim. Seriously, you shouldn't have auto-aim in the first place, but it shouldn't gravitate towards a Survivor who is intangible.
Hook Obscurement:
Keep the hook states counter, update the HUD immediately on unhook, but keep everything else. The HUD should always be accurate, and reward keeping an eye on things, but we don't need a dinner bell to sound and let people know to come back to hook.
Unique Hook Bonus:
20% Total Progress
15% Haste until a chase starts, keep the breaking pallet or damage state restrictions as well.
No changes to the info.
For the "too good for this treatment crowd":
20% Current Progress.
No Haste, No Info.
Seriously, they do not need much help.
Tunneling Penalties:
Survivor dies before the 5th hook; Survivors get a 30% Repair Speed Bonus.
If you do decide to tunnel someone out, gens become uninteractable until the Survivors need to complete one gen. Hefty punishment but not completely taking away hope from either side.
Slugging:
Get rid of Crawl and Recover, revert the speed changes. That's it. I would NOT have put this all in the same PTB.
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