The Decimated Borgo Realm
Recently, we released a quality-of-life update that adjusted how pallets were laid out across certain Realms. We'd love to dig into the specifics of what you like and don't like to help inform future adjustments.
In this thread, let's focus on The Decimated Borgo Realm. How do you feel about the quantity of pallets here? Are there specific areas you feel have too many or not enough pallets? Share your feedback here - the more specific and detailed you can be, the better! Bonus points if you can share screenshots!
And as for this poll, overall, how do you feel about the current state of pallets in The Decimated Borgo Realm?
The Decimated Borgo Realm 349 votes
Comments
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honestly not the worst one, I have seen some instances of two pallets back to back on a tile that run a straight line into each other so there’s no mind game to be played. Just eating pallets.
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Borgo didn't need anywhere near that many more pallets, what it needed was the gym spawns to not have the single pallet no window borgo tiles.
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This one we can clearly see the changes but I don't mind tbh. I think the distance between pallets need a small change.
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Some loops feel a bit safe and should be touched up on but otherwise the amount of pallets doesn't feel overwhelming
-1 -
All I want to say is to please understand that a middle ground is possible when balancing maps. Actually try to make the maps fair for both sides. The goal should be to avoid creating more maps like the Haddonfield we had for the past few years. Shoe box sized maps with no pallets are ridiculous. Neither side should load in and feel disadvantaged from the start of the match. It feels terrible.
10 -
Most of the pallet density I've found on this map feel entirely filler, I've seen no strong tiles spawn in what used to be dead zones.
-1 -
this one is fine, both maps needed it. Shattered square feels a bit too safe at times but other than that, good job!
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Shattered Square did not need it, forgotten ruins is still heavily in the killers favour from the size of the map alone.
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Shattered square went from the most pallet barren map with a few windows to a pallet at every junk loop. Suggestion is to turn down the dial on the pallets on Borgo a tad. It needed more pallet loops but not to this extreme.
Yes, not all are safe pallets but the ability to chain another one 10 meters away is the root of the problem here.
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Shattered square didn't need any more pallets, the problem has been always forgotten ruins. Shattered is now pretty punishing for killers who can't eat pallets for breakfast.
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I think it is very important to realize Borgo as a realm is very split and can't be answered together. Forgotten Ruins needed the additional pallets and is completely fine with more, but Shattered Square is currently a nightmare on killer and needs a bit less in terms of connected tiles.
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Id say decimated borgor is mostly balanced now theirs not many strong tiles or pallets but their are plenty of filler pallets
-1 -
My main issue with how you decided to tackle the "dead zones", is to just bring more fillers, some of which are not that great for survivors with some very strong ones and some are too close to each other or to jungle gyms so they chain too easily.
Instead I feel like you should work on how the pallets are distributed on the map. The amounts of pallets on most maps were fine (with some obvious exceptions like borgo), but some were placed too close to tiles/jungle gyms with huge dead zones in other spots.
I think you could revert these recent pallet changes and instead:
- place some guaranteed fillers in places where regular tiles don't spawn, keeping a reasonable distance from the closest one and consider how they can be chained with other tiles (i.e. they shouldn't chain that easily)
- the fillers far away from stronger tiles/jungle gyms should be stronger, while those closer to other structure should be much weaker
- review how the map styles impact tiles strength, not all tile layouts or fillers work for all maps
- add some window-based fillers like on Toba, too many maps lack any windows in so many spots
- do something about the hills, I think they create a lot of dead zones, maybe place a tunnel under them with a possible window or a pallet inside or on top, or slim them out to place a window/pallet next to it, kinda like the tiles next to shack on new ormond
+ my totally personal and super biased ask, please remove the terrible window-window tile that I don't know the name of, but it's everywhere now and on some maps they are not as "strong" as they are on macmillan, my absolute least favorite tile in the entire game
On the other hand, if you continue to create all those dashslops like Krasue or reworked Myers, we might need all them pallets ;)
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You were crazy adding that amount of pallets. What were you even thinking of?
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This was one of few realms that desperately needed more pallets, but a LOT was added. I would tweak it slightly.
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I see several comments here that show either people don't know what map borgo is or don't understand the question because this map is completely unplayable for M1 killers and even strong A tiers struggle here. The pallets allow survivors to just keep rotating to anywhere in the map they want a really good survivor just won't go down and the killer will HAVE to eat through pallets to get downs which means efficient survivors will easily win with few hooks let alone a chance for the killer to get a kill
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Shattered Square I'm very glad it got more pallets, I haven't played on Forgotten Ruins yet but that map has issues that are rooted in it's actual design rather than the pallet density.
-2 -
- Shattered Square is egregiously Survivor-sided now. There's just too much safety on this map.
- Forgotten Ruins needed the additional pallets, and is much more fun to play on as Survivor now.
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For each of my ratings I'm going to break them down into two parts with info/map specific info afterwards.
Tile Type: ⭐⭐❌❌❌
Pallet Density:⭐⭐⭐❌❌
Map Specific:
Forgotten Ruins: This map is fundamentally flawed due to the portals, but I do appreciate you guys trying. My issue is, in your attempt to fix the lack of safety up top you've made a ridiculous amount of edge map pallets and nobody wants to intentionally run edge map, since that can easily get you zoned into death AND IT SHOULD, if you're playing killer well. So naturally if you play survivor and aren't running WoO you rarely think of going edge map, so it feels terrible, but if a survivor knows how much is there it's miserable for the killer.
Overall:
The filler / lack of substance tiles are a bit overboard. There are so many of them.
At the same time I'm thankful for this, because for some reason you guys have a philosophy on this realm to screw with survivors. By that I mean, you'll take a jungle gym or a 4 lane and where a survivor knows a pallet should spawn, you say, " GOTCHA!" and it either doesn't exist or it's reversed from where it should be . Sometimes you get super spicy and move a window two feet over, so if you try to run it like your muscle memory tells you, you'll slam into a wall.
I've said before and I'll say it again, I love RNG and new tiles. I don't enjoy running to a tile that should be one way, but it's randomly different. If you want unique tiles for the realm, make UNIQUE TILES, not tiles that are pretending to be one thing and end up being another. Shattered Square is one of the few realms that makes me wish I permanently ran WoO to know if you guys decided to prank me.
So, with all of that being said, I prefer Shattered Square like this, since it reduces me getting baited, but it is overall worse for interesting tiles and brutal for M1 killers.
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Shattered square is incredibly unfair for m1 killers, and forgo is still incredibly boring for killer because theres no reason to ever chase bot-side in favor of the top side 3 gen, and is equally boring for survivor.
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Forgotten Ruins was super killer favorable and needed the extra loops, that's good.
Borgo, did not need that many pallets. Maybe a couple more, but I liked that map and now the distance between pallets is TOO SMALL. Way too many things interconnect so well.
I wish this change was more individual map focused than realm focused.
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This realm is weird as I do think it did need the pallet changes, I just think for the original Borgo map the pallet density went a little too far, this one shouldn't be reverted like I think most of the realm should, but I do think it should be tweaked slightly to have a little less, but still more than it had before.
-1 -
Also Ruins is completely fine with the new changes, and it does help the map, so no need to tweak that one.
-1 -
Shattered Square has too many pallets. Given the map has near-infiinite line of sight too, the map is borderline unplayable for a lot of killers. Would honestly rather play on Badham Preschool as killer right now.
Forgotten Ruins is sort of better balanced now, but what it really needs is a portal placement rework so camping the downstairs section isn't as hilariously easy as it is now. Could use an exit gate rework too (put one downstairs when unique exit gates inevitably become a thing or force one of the spawns to be behind the tower in the corner so the killer doesn't have completely free LoS on both at the same time).
-1 -
Thanks for sharing your thoughts here! If you could provide a screenshot of this tile, that would be super helpful.
Rest assured, as we share this feedback with the team, we're making sure to differentiate between maps where feedback differs. Would you be able to elaborate on the connected tiles on Shattered Square? Would love to bring back any specific examples that don't feel great to the team.
Thanks for getting so detailed in your feedback! Let me parse through this to bring back to the team.
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Forgotten Ruins needs reworked entirely. There's nothing to loop downstairs, except MAYBE chaining a window to get to the portal and thats about it. there's not really really any "tiles" down there. Theres like two tiles plus shack up top and the rest is just clutter with some pallets. Plus the doors being easily accessible even if the killer has 4 survivors at end game likely at least 2 will die in some way especially if they have an end game build.
-1 -
Borgo feels fine, especially the Shattered Square map.
Pallet distribution is fair, and the loops are not too easy to chain.
The problem however is Forgotten Ruins. While the outside area got significantly better for Survivors, the main problem with the map is still very much present. From the outside, there is just one point of entry to the dungeon, and yes, I do count the portal in the back a part of the tower, since you end up close to the stairs leading up to the outside anyways. The dungeon part is also very lacking in pallets, and safe loops. Granted, you do have the one deep room with the boardwalk, and a window vault leading into it, but that is pretty much the only safe area in the entire dungeon.
Also, there are no other entry points into the dungeon, other than through the tower, and the only other exits are via the one-way portals. No other stairs or ways to get out of there.Also, why cannot the hatch spawn in the dungeons?
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The amount of filler pallets in Shattered square specifically seems a tad excessive, they're too easily connected for how safe they are. Forgotten Ruins seems fine, though I'd say the fillers should be a tad more unsafe.
I will say, though, tiles connected to shack should just not be a thing. Shack is too strong to have a tile that can be chained to it. This feedback goes for most maps actually. Strong tiles like Shack, Jungle gyms, Pallet gyms, Four lanes, That one log tile that used to only be in Red Forest, should not have tiles that connect to them while looping, especially not on the window side. A survivor should have to work for the pallet break or make a good misderection play in order to make it to a filler tile from those strong tiles.
Imo, filler tiles should be either very unsafe like the ones in Rotten fields with the cone thingy on one end and the crates on the other, or should be unsafe-ish like the new mcmillan tiles that have been made shorter. Safe pallets or god pallets have no place outside of the aforementioned strong tiles or main buildings.
On a side note, as a Vecna main, I would LOVE if more maps had small elevation differences. The main building in Shattered Square or the little market area are cool! Or how the tower in Forgotten Ruins is a little bit higher than the regular ground level. Having some small ditches, tunnels, hills or holes like Ormond Mine would be great! Maybe even an elevated shack like in Dead Dog Saloon would be so nice. And I feel like it would fit the aesthetic of borgo pretty well, even though this feedback specifically I think can apply to most maps.0 -
On shattered square this update is a lot better! Pallet length is maybe a tad short but overall it's just so nice to not have so many dead zones so thank you for that.
On forgotten ruins, there are often still quite a number of short pallets and some dead zones I still notice back behind main. Strengthening that area more would be nice, as well as the castle area which often doesn't have many resources at all.-1 -
Decimated Borgo has been absolutely miserable to play as Survivor ever since D&D got introduced. Shattered Square was in dire need of both more pallets and better tiles, and it feels much better now.
Shattered Square FINALLY feels playable as Survivor, after years of it being one of the most killer-sided maps in the game, and honestly I haven't had any issues playing as Killer since the update. This map is still decent as Killer, and I disagree with there being too many chainable loops.
The thing about chainable loops is that they're very much necessary to reduce deadzones. Chainable loops shouldn't have very strong pallets, but I don't feel that playing Killer on the Shattered Square loops has been ill-affected by the update much at all. It's still one of the smallest maps in the game and feels very fair and balanced.
Especially when versing Killers that either eat pallets or that can make distance in the blink of an eye if you try to leave a loop like Kaneki or Blight, Borgo feels balanced.
I will echo the sentiment that the no-window single-pallet gym tiles on this map are genuinely horrible to play on as Survivor. They're incredibly unsafe, give Survivors almost no distance even if they pull off a stun, are thrown almost instantly so they offer nothing and give the illusion of safety when running late-game (but it's never up because everyone runs to the gym assuming they'll get more value out of it until they realize there's nothing there) and are just genuinely my least favorite tiles in the whole game to be honest.
I've been trying for a long time to get them to spawn on either Shattered Square or Forgotten Ruins to get a screenshot, but it seems that these gyms might no longer spawn since these changes? But please make sure they stay out of rotation.
Forgotten Ruins also feels more playable for many similar reasons. The dungeon area still feels maybe a little barren, and I feel it needs a window vault or two to make is runnable once any of the pallets down there have been thrown. If a single pallet is thrown in the Dungeon, the entire downstairs area (which encompasses THREE generators! No small area!) feels unrunnable. The threat of these pallets is the only thing that keeps the main balanced. Once they go, the entirety of Main feels awful.
Generally, I think the Decimated Borgo realm is finally much more balanced, and I don't feel like giving up before the match has already started when I get Shattered Square or Forgotten Ruins as Survivor.
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Okay, so the two maps for this realm cant be compared.
Forgotten ruins is very killer sided if played right and often spawns too many ######### edge map pallets.
Shattered Square on the other hand with this pallet update became much much stronger for survivors to the point where it is near unplayble for a lot of killers. The amount of pallets is insane, then you can add the windows that can spawn in some the destroyed builds. its just too much. There are plenty of safe pallet which is fine to have some but there is too much. Even the unsafe pallets slightly favor survivor making 50/50s more of 70/30s in favor of the survivor. Again as i stated before, their needs to be a nice mix of unsafe(50/50) pallets and safe pallets (bloodlust breakers) Best 50/50 pallets btw are the two pallets that can spawn against the cars right outside the main building on Badham. I hate Badham and imo the 2nd worst map in the game and the most survivor sided map but those pallets i mentioned are two of my favorite in terms of unsafe pallets.
ps. The Game map imo is the worst map in the game for gameplay. Super boring and un-interactive on bothsides.1 -
Adding pallets to almost every maps in the game when it is already survivor sided is insane. Stop this nonsense, please, you're making killers miserable to play.
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palette increase on borgo was a bit of an overkill.
forgotten ruins is just an awful map all around but i guess the increase in palettes does help make it less miserable for survivor.
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Ruins as a map is just plain flawed imo. Portals are almost like infinite use god pallets, and killer has a guaranteed 3 gen downstairs thats easily defendable with the ways to get down there very close to each other. Ruins inherit issues aside, Ground level was's additions felt fine. Perimeter pallets here give a survivor something without being strong as to chain into other loops or something strong. There's not an excess of them. Other additional spawns feel fine as well. The groundfloor was a tad empty prior. However, you could put 50 pallets up there and it wouldn't matter because a killer can just stay downstairs. It might be better to increase resources downstairs and decrease the ones up on the ground, but make the ground floor bigger to compensate. That'll make it more like azarovs resting place where its split and you have to decide which 3 gen to hold on a case by case basis rather than just immediately knowing to hold downstairs.
Borgo on the other hand, i feel like its actually a fine map, if only slightly survivor sided. Main being in an isolated corner feels fine. Has a decent window upstairs and drop offs for balanced landing and a god pallet. Once the gen is done and the god pallet is used both sides should largely ignore it. Theres definitely an issue where loops connect to shack window sometines, but that can be fixed by changing shack window to face the perimeter wall. Overall, map feels fine, maybe sometimes survivor sided, especially when pallets spawn close to shack and extend shack loops.
-1 -
Shattered Square has too many pallets now. The only issue with that map previously was the fake jungle gyms that looked like jungle gyms except they sometimes only spawn either the pallet or the window (and not both) and dying to that on survivor because you thought there was a resource and there just wasn't, feels awful. Revert the pallet density here and fix the jungle gyms instead.
Forgotten Ruins unfortunately is still just one of the worst maps in the game either way. The layout and portal placement has issues and while the top section of the map might be safer for survivors now, nothing really changed about the dungeon and it's still very easy for killers to just hold that part of the map especially if they get a hook down there. That map needs very significant changes or a rework imo.
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Forgotten Ruins is fine but needs a portal placement rework, this might sound crazy to some but I actually think it needs more portals, maybe make the portals 2 way portals instead of 1 way. That way killers can get between the floors easier to guard gens but survivors might end up being able to connect more loops between the 2 floors, which would be fun as survivor and a very creative way of making the map feel bigger since you could connect loops between floors easier. Also side note, PLEASE LET VICTOR GO THROUGH PORTALS. Shattered Square has way too many safe pallets way too close to each other right now, either reduce the safety of the pallets or remove some of them cuz it didn’t need this many safe pallets. I’d like to be specific but it’s literally like 95% of the map at this point.
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this is a split. Forgotten Ruins is fine spawning a few more pallets (especially up top zone) but Shattered Square has too many pallets.
-1 -
The real problem for me is the Forgotten Ruins. Portals are incredibly annoying, and they make the survivors' game easier than it should be.
-1 -
It definitely feels better or decimated borgo.
I don't feel difference on the ruins tho
-1 -
bro how many more pallets u want? killer can just stand in corner after this, bro XD M1 killers are dead ,cant do anything cause getting fast gen repaired and eating pallets cause every 2 meters, go play killers or dont post things like this XD
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This map should stay the way it is there were hardly any pallets on this map to begin with
-2 -
Way too many. Normally, you’d expect more variation in spacing.
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This realm is perfect. Definitely needed a lot of help and has gotten it, which finally makes the map fair. I have seen one or two strong setups but not busted so it's very manageable and fair for both sides.
-3 -
Too easy to chain. I've seen some disgusting set-ups on this map. Pre-drop, chain, repeat. Too many pallets, too close together. No interesting gameplay.
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Thanks for all the feedback in here, folks!
To confirm, are you still encountering the "fake" jungle gyms following the pallet density update?
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Now that you mention it, no I have not seen one since the update. If those were removed then good, they should not be brought back
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Shattered Square didn't need more pallets, Forgotten Ruins did, so revert it in the first and just adjust the second.
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Shattered square is, like most other maps now, awful to play as killer while Forgotten Ruins desperately needed more pallets (among other things)
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Forgotten Ruins: Feels overall fine. The map just has different issues like the exit gates being too difficult for survivors since killers can stay in the middle and keep an eye on both. It would be better if the exit gates would be more behind something like one behind the main building and the other one more behind shack.
Shattered Square: A little bit too stacked when it comes to pallets. Before the update, the map was a bit too empty but now it is the opposite and there are sometimes too much pallets or they conntect into each other too well/form a bit loop.
I remember that you updated the map at some point with the rule that there has to be a certain distance around a pallet, so another one can spawn. Did this got removed or changed? I can't remember the patch when you announced it
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