http://dbd.game/killswitch
Once here instead of in a dozen threads
The pallet density update was a major buff to Survivors, but not in the way you expected. You expected there to be no dead zones, but instead there are still dead zones, but more pallets filling the spaces between pallets that already would've spawned. Most Killers struggle unless the Survivors are completely screwing around, which is unfortunate, since that leaves most Killer players on Krasue, Nurse, Blight, and the like, which when that's all you play against, it sucks. If it actually did what was intended, keep Dead Zones from spawning, rather than what it does, keep the map from having MORE dead zones due to players throwing every pallet, the conversation would be about buffing the Killers who struggle with the pallets (nearly all but the ones previously mentioned.)
TL;DR. You didn't do what you said you would, and it's making the game boring, on both sides, for multiple reasons that boil down to this change sucks
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They're asking for feedback on it right now, so I'm expecting it'll be rolled back as was always intended (in my opinion).
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I dont want it to be fully rolled back, i want there to be pure raw rng deadzones which can be used by both survivor and killers alike to use it in their advantage.
Right now survivors use it for their advantage only killers not, majority of killers not unless S-tier ones.
I propose a system where its rng and neither survivor or killers can get used it to until they explore the map fully and learn the map on each new fresh match so its on equal footing.
In theory it should work well because on one side of map there are survivors and other side tile is where killer spawns, let there be multiple deadzones on both tiles so both killer and survivor can use it againts one another.
Aka skill prevails over set fixated rule
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The pallet density helps so much againts the killers that actually tunnel for no reason, and yes tunneling has sadly became necessary for majority killers on roster.
But im speaking about those killers that will play specific killers and tunnel at 5 gens even if the survivors are baby survivors or playing for fun without sweating.
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could you clarify which killers you mean by "most killers"?
i can only think of like 4 killers who would struggle with the density update - onyro, pig, ghostface, and hag. (maybe not so much pig anymore after her buffs.. so make that 3 killers lol)
everyone else has anti loop or pallet break implemented into their kit.
Post edited by AcesSpeedo on2 -
I am really not seeing a large difference in my matches and I tend to play a variety of killers. Most pallets I can just sidestep. It doesn't feel like chases are suddenly unworkably long and certainly not unwinnable. I don't even really have to try that much harder, if at all.
I also don't get the argument that people are just going to migrate to stronger killers - like they don't already play them anyway. Also, if having extra pallets against a Blight, Kaneki, Krasue, etc. makes going against them more fair, how do you think things were before the additional resources?
The pallet density complaints are so completely divorced from what I'm experiencing in my matches that I can't even understand where they're coming from beyond 'survivor favoring change = bad'.
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The mindless predrops are annoying but the pallets haven't harmed me as killer. I'm just breaking more pallets. Quite a few people are also slamming them and running pretty stupidly now that they don't have to be as mindful and giving me easy downs, as though I can't just go around the pallet.
They havent really helped me much as survivor either, but it's probably different for WoO users.
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That could work. I feel like the system should shift around Killer powers at this point too, but that might create an official tier list and I don't see that working out very well.
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Yeah, that's the issue. How do you determine who gets what? Even everyone's favorite token example for low-mobility killers, Trapper, could potentially benefit form having more pallets to place traps near. Same with Hag. Doctor can stop you from dropping them and create illusionary ones. Also, Freddy's dream pallets. How do you really break this down into a simple list?
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That would work really well too, make a lore about s tier killers have harsher enviorment given to by the entity.
Would be hard to setup for the devs sadly but i love the idea and i so badly wish it was a thing
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All m1 killers and like the all to b-tier without any strong antiloop, clown is strong is chase and has one of best 1v1 but this change nerfed him and why, because he was getting faster chases with no mobility or side objective for survivors like pinhead, now you have to deal with more pallets and survivors have more time for gens its simple as that.
Killers that got extreamly destroyed by this update are like ghostface (no chase power just pure m1 with instadown that is weak), bubba (he just got nerfed way more because he now has to play more around pallets and there is just few others to run into without solid looping skill needed), demogorgan (his shread is now nerfed even more making it one of worst breaking pallet powers).
Basicaly all killers that arent super strong got nerfed by that change, two maps that needed it were like haddonfield and cow maps and maybe the vecnas map the upper floor but thats like all so why gasheaven asylum maps that are very strong and favor survivors plus other maps like that is mystery that DBD balance team didnt solved till today and we are still waiting for report.
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Sadly they dont you know when trapper was top, when infinites existed and every survivor wanted to get chased there like content creators running killer for as many ges as he could but trapper and nurse had counterplay, nowdays more weakr pallets means more time and effort that can be wasted becasue survivor will chosse different loop that is like 8 meters from the one you traped and always has where to run.
For freddy do you play him? or are you asking this as question because dont? If you did play him you would know on many maps there are just few places where you can spawn pallets and these are weaker pallets where will survivor dont even bother run. Map that realy makes freddys dream pallets to work is rpd the less survivor one where its just reaching helicopter to library and doesnt continue further, there are loops that are strong but on one side where pallet didnt spawn you can place dream pallet and like 95% of these loops survivor must run around them so they can be easily forced to dream pallet but normaly you will dont even use dream pallets because teleport and snares are far more usefull and practical,dream pallets are just like all traps they cost you time and effort which can be spend into more agressive powers and chases which wins you the game, dram pallets are easy to spot so before his rework when they looked normal there were way more useful than now because every survivor knows that red pallets are worth to be used and will only punish them it takes like two braincells to find this same as other killer methods like using springtraps portals when he isnt carrying ir chasing someone is bad idea and isnt good or using nemesis vaccine to early in the game (if you are dead hook and he isnt looking for you or gens are done than its more better to use it).
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Additionally, say they did strike the perfect balance. How would the community take it? We've seen how quickly they'll shift gears at the drop of a dime.
Yeah. Sadly there's a lot of great things conceptually with the game, but I don't know how many would be able to translate well to reality.
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The pallet density hurt every single killer, not just the tunnelling one. No way survivors are going to "not use" the pallet when they face nice Killer.
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Having anti-loop doesn't mean it's autowin for Killer. You still have to outplay survivors at the pallet, and more pallet means you have to outplay survivors more times before getting a down, meaning wasting more killer's time.
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Well I’d hate to think I’m wasting the poor killer’s time. When I play survivor should I just go stand under a hook to help out the poor beleaguered killers? I’m sure they have better things to do than spend time in chase.
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I dont want it to be fully rolled back, i want there to be pure raw rng deadzones which can be used by both survivor and killers alike to use it in their advantage.
That's really interesting. Unfortunately, I don't have the creativity to come up with scenarios like that on my own. So, could you please give me two or three examples of how "raw rng deadzones" can be used by a survivor "in their advantage"?
Thanks!
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I think i wrote it on the bottom reply, i will give an example.
So both survivor side of map where they start and killer side of map gets each own unique rng deadzone that is different than their previous matches and its constantly switching up so neither parties can use it in their advantage from memory rather skill should prevails as in quick adaptive thinking to the map layout and tiles.
In short on survivor side they will know to not go there while killer wont know until they spent a while chasing survivors on tiles, same goes for killer side, they will get deadzones that can be used for isolating survivor somewhere safe for their own pick and hook.
And yes if you run windows you can probably figure out the whole rng deadzone quicker but still now windows will have an actual use of action instead just time wasting without any proper counter to it.
If this gets added people that use windows will have it back fire on them as well since if a survivor is avoiding that entire zone it means its not safe and killer should use that to his advantage.
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Love how even the devs own feedback polls dont mention how the maps also had main building nerfs, jungle gym nerfs, and maps shrunk. Like those dont have any effect on map balance? No of course, let's just revert all the pallet changes but leave the changes that are killer sided. Par for the course with every update this year.
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I'll say it again, stronger 1v1 killer= more pallets, weaker 1v1 killer= less pallets.
Edit: slower killer, smaller map. Faster killer= bigger map.
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never said it was. but they have the means to be able to win efficiently if they play well.
i'd have preferred more tiles like T and L's because they require more than just dropping and being annoying lol but still im happy unfair deadzones are being fixed.
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It’s sad if they’ll just roll it back instead of actual further improvements. Dead zones still not fixed
Sure, Crotus and Suffo with Gas Heaven should be brought back… but… these maps still have issues
I’m so disappointed that instead of gen placement logic they decided give us more pallets
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Balancing pallet density on “S-tier” killers, won’t help the majority of survivors in this game, because the list of killers that overperform at average MMR can be extremely different from the list of killers that overperform in the community tier lists that are based on the top 0.001% of the players.
Did you see the most recent official average MMR stats? Freddy is still overperforming at average MMR, and if you make the game easier for him because he’s “low tier”, then you’re forcing average MMR survivors to suffer.
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!
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So your answer to this is one side must suffer more and it will be killers because they have s-tiers that can deal with that and ghostface or sadako can go play with bots.
Kill rates arent the right thing to balance the game on (maybe average kill rate from all killers but not by individual stats or it will end as skullmerchant case). Freddy,sadako have high kill rates but are they that op, sadako is c-tier and one of top 10 worst and weakest killers in the entire game and freddy is like higher b-tier but is map dependent because othe third of his power isnt working as before (dream pallets have maps where you can set them on almost every loop like rpd and maps where you can set none to just few on entire map from the start of the match), vecna has high kill rate is he op, no he is just hard to deal with because his power is just 4 weaker powers in one and if the killers power isnt something simple like weskers dash, huntress hatcher or billys saw then average survivor will alway strggle with counterplay especialy if that killer isnt played too much as others like huntress she is simple to play as and against and is in top 5 most played killers so every beginer plays against her not like freddy,sadako or vecna.
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My answer to this, is balancing the game based on the top 0.001% of players, doesn’t help the vast majority of players at all.
Most killers aren’t overperforming with S-tier killers. An average MMR killer playing Blight is very much affected by the pallet density update. And the average MMR survivor is most often going to play against average MMR Blights.
That’s like saying all 4-SWF groups should be nerfed, because some 4-SWF groups are overperforming.
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In a world where there are parts of the map that are so strong that killers have to abandon chase if a survivor goes there or they just lose the game, there also needs to be areas where the opposite is true. If you want no deadzones, then lets talk about nerfing killer shack going into jungle gym going into main buildings. Then we can make deadzones not a thing for sure.
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Blight can go through strong loops in same time faster and force more than bubba who is just find a window or drop pallet so Idk what you saying but blight doesnt care at all about pallets he can outplay the most of them or force them down and catch up and then has solid chance to get hit which is something even wesker or ghoul cant do, pallet density uptade should add more on just few maps like haddonfield,farm maps and top level on vecna map and thats it not buff asylum maps, gasheaven or other quite balanced maps for both sides or survivor sided maps more with pallets and that is mistake this update did, it had simple job just fix few maps but instead it buffed maps which didnt even needed it and made them survivor sided which isnt good if you want to see other killers than blight or krasues which doesnt care about 5-6 more loops unlike demogorgan,bubba,ghostface and other killers which even with antiloop cant get throught so many loops in time that survivors have to do all gens which is bad change that is making the game more unbalenced and scissors more open which is something devs dont want (just imagine on some maps where hooks are far from each other devs released uptade that would fix that but add even more hooks on other maps so there would be like two hooks 10 meters apart and killer could double hook there and camp two hooks would it be ok or it would be bad at some map corners from which you cant get there and its pretty easy trade for killer with huge slowdown, thats like what is this update busted it just nerfs weaker half of the killers then nerfs some to be weaker and top 1/3 or 1/4 of killers which are strongest dont care and will still not effect them few more pallets).
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It does actually help them in a lot of ways. Saying "balance for the top players" doesn't mean "ignore the lower skill players" But it does mean that you take into account what the best players are capable of exploiting.
For example, lets look at killer shack. Killer shack is one of the strongest locations in the game for survivors. No its not the "best" but its the "best" that exists in pretty much every map. Its the strongest generic structure by far. When high skill survivors use it, they can often use check spots and the holes in the walls of shack that let them see the killer to make it so the killer basically has to get the survivor to vault 3 times, then abandon the shack or get the pallet dropped and break it. Even doing that, doesn't really weaken the structure, because the power is in the unmindgameable window whne using check spots.
What about low skill/newer survivors? They aren't using check spots, and they aren't exploiting the shack to the fullest capability to force the vault 3 times and then moving on. They are running straight to the pallet, immediately dropping it and "wasting" the pallet, and then runing somewhere else. Or falling for a simple double back mindgame at the window and then getting hit because they aren't using the check spots
So what if you nerfed killer shack. What if you removed all the holes in the wall and made it so it was weaker? What if you put up things in the way to make it so you can't use check spots to see exactly where the killer is coming from and forcing an actual 50/50 mindgame? What if you made it like the dead dawg shack that has a breakable wall that makes the window quite a bit weaker? What would that do?
Well, for low skill survivors, nothing really changes. They typically aren't going against killers that are using complicated mindgames at shack anyway, and they are going to just drop the pallet and vault the window the same as they used to. But what is this doing at high levels? Making it so this structure is much less safe for the survviors who are exploiting it.
Now lets look at an example of the other side of things. Lets look at camping. Camping is a strategy that is quite effective in lower levels against survivors who aren't ready for it. They run in for the save, wasting time, and spend a bunch of time coordinating a save with 1-2 survivors, meanwhile gens aren't getting done, and the clock is running against them. At a high level though what happens? Someone probably has a perk that lets them know the killer is camping or runs over checks and sees the killer camping, and then runs to a gen. Then everyone works a gen for 40-50 seconds, and then someone runs up and trades with the person being camping. 2 gens get done, and maybe the killer has 1 hook, and then this process repeats a couple of times and the gens are all done and 3 survivors often make it out, or get a 4th if they can coordinate a good endgame save.
What if you massively nerfed camping or made it not possible at these stages of the game (endgame "camping" is a bit different). You would be giving these lower skill survivors a massive buff by giving them the tools to either deal with camping without a perk, or by just making it so the killer can't do it anymore.
What about had high skill play? Probably not much is happening because the killers aren't camping at that level to begin with because the survivors know how to deal with it and it usually results in 3 or 4 out.
The point is that you can make balance decisions for one group of players or the other that doesn't impact the other brackets of skill that would make the game better for everyone.
When it comes to "balance" decisions, you need to make them in mind with the group that it is targeted, but also make sure that its not negatively impacting the other groups, doing that makes the game better for everyone, and when lower skill players see the cool things high skill players are doing, it encourages them to stay with the game longer and learn so they can start doing those things as well rather than just giving up because its all "boring"
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This is still completely ignoring the fact that at average MMR, killers like Freddy are overperforming, and purposely nerfing Blight, while allowing Freddy have an easier pallet density, doesn’t help average MMR.
Blight isn’t overperforming at average MMR. It doesn’t matter what Blight players could theoretically be doing if played perfectly, because that’s not happening at average MMR.
There really really really needs to be a completely separate tier list for average MMR. It is so very toxic for this game, to only have 1 tier list, that’s based off of the top 0.001% of players.
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This is still completely ignoring the fact that at average MMR, killers like Freddy are overperforming, and purposely nerfing Blight, while allowing Freddy have an easier pallet density, doesn’t help average MMR.So you want to balance killers on their kill rates?
This means we will buff nurse because she is under 60% killrate on average and nerf the hell out of freddy and sadako and heavy nerf skull merchant because she still has huge kill rate even after her nerfs that put her into f-tier.
Blight isn’t overperforming at average MMR. It doesn’t matter what Blight players could theoretically be doing if played perfectly, because that’s not happening at average MMR.Blight is strong as hell and if you mean unexperienced player isnt that good with him so we give him back his addons and hug tech becasue average joe cant do that well with it but players like momo can go 2000+ winstreak with this yeah very good idea, by your idea trapper should be left as he is because he has better results than nurse which is something I higly dissagree.
There really really really needs to be a completely separate tier list for average MMR. It is so very toxic for this game, to only have 1 tier list, that’s based off of the top 0.001% of players.Im not suggesting to balance game around your 0,001% players which are like comp players but more around 15-30% of mmr players, players that arent best but arent worst if we balance it around 50% of mmr then we will have things like skullmerchant in her current state called op and demand nerfs because she has huge kill rate and giving buffs to strong killers like nurse which have small kill rate or pyramidhead. Do you think a-tier killers and above need some buffs because their kill rate is lover than freddy?
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The extremely large win streaks happen because this game has a soft MMR cap, and the game doesn’t really try to find similar MMR opponents if someone is way above the soft MMR cap.
I don’t know why people keep ignoring this fact. It’s not a secret. It’s literally what a soft cap means.
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It happened because people around high mmr couldnt handle the blights true power at almost full potencial, deffend it as you want i believe superalf has like 1 000 winstreak with perkless nurse or something like that which just shows the stiers are kinda busted in skilled players hads and you comparing them to freddy or other killers that preform more on average but have to work more and sweat to get results is just blindness and being oblivious to the facts killers cant fully balanced around their kill rates.
Skull merchant is pure exsample she was op because he first version was strong, nerfed and her second version was like b to lower b-tier killer but her strong side was made by 3 gens which was gen spawn fault not hers and gen kick perks were strong and gens could be damaged by infinite numbes so there wasnt cap (like now which is 8 and then gen cant be regressed) so it wasnt her fault again and her kil rates were 70% but every game or seconds game someone alwas killer himself on hook or dc or gave up which wasnt her fault agains and what bhvr did because they were balancing killers base on their kill rates, they nerfed her to be worse than trapper so there is your idea in practise jet you are to blind to see it.
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Do you understand what an MMR soft cap is?
This is a Yes or No question.
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Do you understand what an MMR soft cap is?
This is a Yes or No question.
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I know its the point in numbers which makes the mmr brackets that meant if someone has 1650 mmr (mmr numbers are just as exsamples not numbers according to real mmr which are hidden) and other player has 2260 if they are in the same mmr bracket which is mostly problematic in high mmr then they can play aganst each other even they have different skill and experience and one player is better than the other by qite big chunk.
This means you can as survivor with 1,5k or 2k hours in total play against 13k plus killer (which is something I went through a lot mostly as killer), that means you playing casualy can get comp team if you are in the same mmr bracket (mostly higher mmr).
But kill rates arent good indicator because by your kill rates ghoul needs nerfs and blight is ok oe needs little buff (in same like last unknown buffs, just small improvements) which is wrong or you still think kill rates is good idea.
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Mentioning that some people have extremely high kill rates, is absolutely meaningless, because there is an MMR soft cap.
Chess would look like an extremely unbalanced game, if it had an MMR soft cap, and was constantly matching the top players with people way below their skill level.
And kill rates are what matters. Because it doesn't matter if an average MMR Blight player can "shred through pallets", if their win rate is still low with Blight, and at their skill level they would still do much better with an easier killer like Freddy.
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Sorry but we agree that we dissagree, all you suggests is makeing the game normal for 50% of the player base and dont care about the higher mmr player base where the broken things are way more abuseable than in normal mmr where your average joe cant use blight at his higer skill and make these higher plays that are strong as hell, nefeing the freddy because average joe is doing so great with him and making hi almost unplayable for the rest, this will lead only into splitting the game into two fractions first where will be all killers played and the more experienced one where will be like half of the killers unplayable or hardcore to play with because they will be too weak to go against skilled survivors which is bad thing in my opinion, blights will still get that crazy winstreaks which clearly shows like busted he still is and freddy will be like before his rework joke.
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I don't agree to disagree, because that implies we both might be correct in our own way.
You're objectively wrong. Things are broken at extremely high MMR because of the MMR soft cap. Balancing the game based off of extremely high MMR tier lists, is therefore bad.
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It's remarkable how constant this cycle is. Hard not to believe it's intentional.
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Be sure to add this feedback in the pallet feedback section, because it's definitely relevant
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I've mentioned it in a couple of them but i'm sure its been drowned out by the mob of killer players. The "feedback" in those threads is beyond parody. Basically if its up to forum killer mains we can maaaaybe have like 2 extra fillers on Haddonfield and anything else is survivor sided. And basically every map was already survivor sided even before we added 3 extra rock pallets in exchange for multiple other nerfs.
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I haven't browsed the feedback myself, I just included mine in the FCC thread and left. I think that map was overdone but i havent had issues with any of the other maps as killer. I do think based on BHVRs history, they're likely to revert the pallet update but leave the main building nerfs. I hope they prove me wrong.
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