http://dbd.game/killswitch
Handholding comments, from the community stream
Hey devs, i have a question in regards to this statement:
Can you explain to me how you not only describe handholding and all of the examples you give are only examples on the killer side. But can you also explain how:
- Basekit BBQ
- Basekit Pop
is handholding, but:
- 10% haste
- Endurance
- Elusive
- No Sound
- See the killer's Aura
- 10% haste in endgame
- Endurance in endgame
- Survivors can pick themselves up if slugged too long
- Anti face camp
- Seeing the resolve bar on teammates
- Pallet changes that massively increase the number of pallets on maps that didn't need it while not acctually adressing the thing said changes claimed to be trying to fix.
- Etc.
Are NOT handholding?
Comments
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Can I ask, sincerely, what is the reason behind people making a big deal of this?
It's not as though they said one set of changes was good and just but the other was handholdy and bad, the video you showed opened with them talking about how the rest of the changes were too restrictive and hardline for most people's tastes. I disagree with that, but they still acknowledged it there.
Realistically the only handholding change in the whole PTB was the basekit BBQ, since that'd allow players to completely brainlessly autopilot macro play.
Don't get me wrong, I could see that still being a healthy change, but that's neither here nor there.-18 -
To be honest, a few aspects could be adjusted, but referring to measures like the anti-face-camping system as “hand-holding” for survivors is rather cringeworthy.
12 -
Its because it shows what the devs are thinking.
I don't actually care about what changes are being proposed, as that is not relevant to me at the moment, they aren't in the game, they need to go through PTB where they may receive some changes, or maybe even be scrapped again completely.
What matters to me is the language that the devs are using. I would suggest you watch Choy's video on this stream, its a bit long, but he points out that the language the devs are using indicates (i'm not saying proves) but indicates that they don't actually care about the killer players. Every word, every change, every reason behind every change is geared towarded
- "this is how survivor players feel"
- "we want player agency to matter (then proceeds to only describe things that are survivor things with agence)"
- "players described this as handholding, you know, you get all these cool basekit things for killer thats handholding"
Even in the recent information about the survey, they said camping and tunneling are the reason most players uninstall. Look even at the QUESTIONS on the survey when they adressed slugging a while back asking how players felt about it. Did they even have a SINGLE question that was geared toward killer players asking WHY they tunneled or slugged? Or asking them if they felt like they HAD to?
Again, i'm not saying that the devs are biased, i am not privvy to some secret information that would prove one way or the other. But they constantly keep releasing information, or posing questions, or posing changes and doing so in a way where they are obviously gearing toward survivor players.
Hell even in PATCH NOTES whenever they buff a killer for some completely unknown reason they ALWAYS nerf something about them, literally like every single time. The only exception to this is when they are reverting nerfs they previously did. The last time we had big changes that affected all killers was back in 6.1.0 which was almost 3 and a half YEARS AGO.
Look at their proposed buffs for the skull merchant. Even THOSE have some NERFS in them. WHY? She is horrible, her pick rate is horrible, her kill rate is horrible, and you INTENTIONALLY NERFED HER INTO OBLIVION so that people would NOT play her. A dev literally admitted this on stream, she wasn't nerfed for balance reasons, they just wanted people to stop playing her so people would stop complaining so they could spend time to rework her.
So my question to the devs is simple.
- Where are the surveys asking killer players how they feel about the game?
- Where are the surveys asking killer players why they are uninstalling?
- Where are the changes for killers who are really horribly undertuned that are actually just buffs and not "side grades"
- When are you going to ask killer players about the problems they face and what they would like to see changed?
29 -
Can you explain how its not?
-7 -
I mean, this is a survivor problem we're all currently discussing here. Why wouldn't the surveys and language be primarily geared towards survivors?
It's not as though they never do anything for killers, or neglect to keep killers in mind for proposed changes. That's literally why the previous PTB had all those things delayed, it wasn't because it was causing problems for the survivors in those games.
4 -
Because its ignoring the entire picture. Even in the stream they seem to have no idea why killers tunnel. That right there is a very important and valid question to ask killer players: "hey why do you tunnel? Do you feel like you have to?" they even did it when they said that tunneling happens more at higher MMRs and just "well that's interesting, we aren't sure why, but maybe we could theorycraft something" like, don't you think that is relevant to the problem?
In regard to the changes being delayed. I don't actually believe that at this point, the reasons they gave IN THIS STREAM was that "it felt too handholdy, you know, killers got all these things" So based on the actual words coming out of the devs mouths, the reasoning is clearly because survivors didn't like it.
21 -
It's not exactly something that needs deep research. Killers tunnel because it's unbalanced, that's always been why it happens.
There are definitely killer problems to fix too, but they're largely unrelated to tunnelling. Tunnelling just happens to be the response most killers choose because it's the most bang for your buck regarding effort to value.
-4 -
Cause basekit BBQ and Pop is a skill issue. Or refusing to use those perks. While anti-tunneling and anit-slug has nothing to do with a skill issue. Pretty good job showing off your bias, double standards and lack of morals.
-28 -
- 10% haste (was always in the game)
- Endurance (was always in the game)
- Elusive (QOL not hand holding + no longer a thing)
- No Sound (QOL not hand holding)
- See the killer's Aura (MABE hand hold a little like a pinky finger but far from it more on a QOL because u do anything and loose it to prevent non interactive game play)
- 10% haste in endgame (QOL)
- Endurance in endgame that always been apart of the game (QOL)
- Survivors can pick themselves up if slugged too long(MASSIVE QOL u have to be down for half your bleed out timer to get it to even activate wich was state at 130S thats 2 minutes for the survivor doing NOTHING)
- Anti face camp (QOL)
- Seeing the resolve bar on teammates (MASSIVE QOL)
- Pallet changes that massively increase the number of pallets on maps that didn't need it while not actually addressing the thing said changes claimed to be trying to fix. (Honestly, maps used to be like this before the devs started catering to every crying killer main. Now it’s about as balanced as it’s ever been.
As for killer—let’s not act like they haven’t been handed massive buffs over the last couple of years. They added more hooks per map, practically eliminating dead zones. Hooks now respawn in 30 seconds. Gens take 15 seconds longer to complete. And for the last 5 patches straight, they’ve been buffing 2–3 killers every single update — making almost the entire roster more viable, more oppressive, and way easier to use.
Maps got brighter and a lot smaller, loops (especially jungle gyms) were reworked to be killer-sided and be almost non existent on most maps now a day, and nearly every new killer released has been so simple to play that a toddler could 4K.
Shall I go on, honey? Because it’s honestly funny how you mention all these survivor ‘advantages’ but conveniently forget all the hand-holding killers have gotten.
And let’s be real — most of these so-called ‘extra pallets’ are filler pallets. They’re weak, short, and easily mind-gamed. Half the time they’re just two tiles laid next to each other for decoration. These aren’t strong loops; they’re fake safety nets at best.
But honestly, there’s no changing these people’s minds. They live in their own little world where killers are the eternal victims, no matter how many buffs they get.
-16 -
I hard disagree on your pallets take. Im sorry, i am not saying that they are handholding. Just saying by adding more pallets to already survivor sided maps included in its effect is NOT balanced.
17 -
SO in your opinion do u think their should be a giant dead zone just because 1 pallet get thrown ? because that not balanced what so ever back in the day like 4 years ago survivor had to learn pallet control so they wouldn't create dead zone for the next person that looped in said pallet thrown area now a day once 1 pallet get thrown it just free hit for the killer that just out right BORING TBH sure the fact it been gone on this long people get used to being given free hit and pressure all the time now it just dry's the game out making survivors a punching bag for the killer the game is about skill
-15 -
Not their first time and not their last time.
-5 -
it does seem as though any handholding on the survivor side is passed off as QoL. but i would like to point out
- more hooks per map was QoL for survivors not killers because killers would just slug which survivors hated.
- hook respawn was again QoL for survivors so killers didnt need to slug them.
- gens take 15 seconds longer when recent maps are huge so takes killer like 20 seconds to get the gen unless they are speed freaks like blight?
- you say they buff killers while ignoring they also nerf killers too…SM and Myers?
-4 -
Hook states visible to killers and main building nerfs are mysteriously absent from this list. Or are the killer-sided elements under "etc"?
1 -
This is probably so confusing because it's frequently a killer player contending that survivor players are the only ones who have any comeback mechanics, have their hands held, or are able to 'abuse' mechanics. The fact that they've been living in a glass house this entire time has never even occurred to them.
This is why I try to avoid calling every mechanic I don't like 'hand holding' and a player using things I don't like 'abuse'. Both sides have items, perks, and tactics I'd rather not have to face - that doesn't mean it's all unfair. I think things like killers slugging to avoid DS or waiting out OtR while face planted into a survivor's back are cheap tactics that miss the whole point of them existing to serve anti-tunnel purposes but I don't whine about it on the forums. I also don't complain about survivors using syringes and styptics for the one purpose they're there for as if it's some cheat and not just something intentional in the game.
3 -
My view of the speaker's understanding of the game was tainted by the whole "we don't understand why survivors are slugged/camped more on Gideon/RPD" talk (I didn't watch the whole stream to be fair) but to play devil's adocate here:
The point seems to be that if you had the basekit PGTW/BBQ, you'd feel incentivized to always go and kick a gen or chase people across the map after a fresh hook, and feel bad if you didn't get to capitalize on those bonuses whether by choice or circumstance. Essentially the argument is that the gameplay felt like it was becoming more artificially flowchart-y, and playing outside of that flowchart felt bad. It's a player psychology argument, which is totally fair IMO.
With the survivor stuff it's less about having a mechanic you feel the need to capitalize on, and more that you're provided a few extra layers of protection against whatever the killer wants to do after you're unhooked. You don't/won't necessarily feel bad for escaping the killer because of the buffs, you won't feel bad that your bonuses were "wasted" if the killer just doesn't come back to try and tunnel you, and you're not really incentivized to change up your gameplay because of them. Even though yes, they do kind of handhold the survivor player in a sense, and yes, coordinated teams will find ways to use the mechanics aggressively. It's basically just a net positive for survivor both objectively and psychologically.
4 -
I have to ask. What is your definition of "hand holding."?
I would argue hand holding is giving somebody an unfair advantage. So how is basekit Borrowed Time and anti-face camp unfair advantages? It's the opposite. Face camping a hook and instant downing the unhook had no counter play.
But you seem to think hand holding is any time a buff, nerf, or rework you don't like happens.
8 -
Killers have been getting buffed a lot lately. These changes are just so survivors can keep up with them. However i do agree some of the older killers deserve buffs too once this update goes through.
-19 -
It really is. There was more coordination to unhook someone when hook grabs were a thing. Now everyone is afraid of hearing a terror radious from a killer that is 20 meters away. They only have succeeded in creating worse players.
-8 -
This.
I don't tunnel or slug so most of those changes are irrelevant to me. I would agree its hand-holding if these were actual advantages that were felt across the board, but the only folks that are likely to feel this are those who go directly back to hook to continue to chase the unhooked survivor or those who slug for long periods of time. And that's exactly who they're supposed to effect. It's evening the playing field a bit more in those situations, and giving players a chance, not a guarantee. The rest of us won't even notice this stuff.
1 -
So much focus on punishing killers when we should be punishing these useless and selfish team mates who refuse to make any effort.
13 -
I swear the killer mains love using the word “handholding”.
-12 -
this guy said Krause wasn’t good what do you expect lol
-10 -
Look even at the QUESTIONS on the survey when they adressed slugging a while back asking how players felt about it.
There were no questions about how anyone felt about slugging in that survey. Those questions were about how we define slugging. That's it.
4 -
I agree with that statement, but the devs literally said they don't know in that stream.
5 -
Im a Redditor and I use reddit
-13 -
?
2 -
Is hand holding the new term now? What happened to agency
7 -
The devs have been out of touch with their own game for years now. It's very easy to tell they solely make changes based on what surveys and stats say which is why we constantly see so many questionable changes.
17 -
Obviously they favor killers over survivors.
Or, as one survivor main once told me, "They treat killers like princesses, and you won't convince me otherwise."-20 -
Not exactly a fan of how OP is framing these changes but it feels like nobody knows what QOL means anymore. (Not even the Developers if you count the Pallet Density "QOL" changes)
The only upcoming change that I'd say is in the category of QOL is being able to see the Resolve bar on the HUD. The rest are just straight buffs.
I'm not really against these buffs either, but please call it what it is.
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I must say that i find it amusing the like to dislike ratio being cut right in half . Shows the problem of why this game will never please both sides.
Post edited by Rick1998 on2 -
I really don't understand why you keep bothering with these posts, Reinami. Just reading the replies is making my brain hurt.
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There's no way this post is not a huge slab of sarcasm, right?
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Technically that isn't QoL either. Showing the resolve bar on the hud gives the entire team the info that the killer is near the hook. It's basically a base kit weak Kindred. Definitely not QoL.
QoL is supposed to be a "feel good" change that isn't impacting balance for either side. An example would be the auto recovery on ground, that would be a QoL, since for killer you wouldn't even notice this. It's just a feel good convenience for survivor, not a buff.
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What matters to me is the language that the devs are using. I would suggest you watch Choy's video on this stream, its a bit long, but he points out that the language the devs are using indicates (i'm not saying proves) but indicates that they don't actually care about the killer players.
You have to be kidding me.
From their 'key takeaways' from the 9.2.0 PTB, they copied complaints verbatim from the killer population. It is legitimately direct control. Even this bit:
"we want player agency to matter (then proceeds to only describe things that are survivor things with agence)"
"players described this as handholding, you know, you get all these cool basekit things for killer thats handholding"
The verbiage is lifted straight from killer player posts.
Keep in mind the context of this, as it's in the announcement that anti-tunnel is effectively scrapped in its entirety to appease exactly these complaints, but because they're trying to not make it look like they're telling survivors to eat dirt, that's a problem?
What are they supposed to do?
It's literally never enough.
-4 -
Whole forum is keep saying that basekit Babysitter is "nothing and worthless", so how do you expect these people will describe such a small and insignificant thing as information? QoL. And how they describe change where killer can see hook states? Killers buff, tunneling buff.
Same people who crying how bad was 6.1.0 even after 3 years +, but keep completely shameless ignoring at least 5 huge survivor buffs and ton of small buffs since then.
Truth is that it IS QoL for majority of players, because not only they don't pay attention to this info, they also don't know what to do with it. You know how many matches I saw where 2 people were on hook, 3rd person was in chase and last one just relaxed doing gen? 3rd person goes down and this player pop gen. "Hey killer, I'm here, your last person. Wait, you come to me, why? Let me unhook them. No? Ah, broken killers. Slugging is such a problem." If not hundreds, then definitely dozens. All these people will call anything QoL, what don't takes them by the hand and effortlessly leads them to the exit. That's why old CoH, old DH, current Syringe are "balanced" by their mesures, because macro and micro plays doesn't exist for them, and only value they are able to see is here and now: crazy big and instant. It's just game where they press m1 on gen and press space into window to take distance with Lithe, and it's about it, not more, not less.
(If anything, I'm not talking about ReverseVelocity at all here)6 -
As others have mentioned, handholding seems to be the word of the month. Call something handholding, argument over.
Questions about things being stronger or weaker aren't handholding (i.e. how fast should a survivor move in a certain situation). Those are balance and overall game feel questions.
Handholding is the game trying to tell you how to play, like the Basekit BBQ. You just hooked a survivor, and now the game is telling you which survivor it wants you to go chase. Again others have mentioned it, but probably the closest thing on the survivor side is the aura read which has survived (in my opinion unfortunately).
1 -
Counterpoint do you think this should be a thing
Lets see. 1 2. 3 in the back next to shack. Shack itself. There's 1 beside me. There's obviously main building also right there with its own pallets. My grandmother could run for 5 gens with this. Even as a survivor player (50-50) I know this is pretty bad. Thats why I put it in the crotus feedback so hopefully they fix it. Survivor should be skillfull like you said. I like showing what I learned over the years with managing pallets perfectly. Not having 15 extra slapped around so my skill doesnt matter when you can just round twice and move onto the next over and over. It is handholding at least to me.
Another angle for whos curious with actual writing.
14 -
No, I gave up explaining common sense to adults a long time ago.
-1 -
Killers are handheld by having a weapon to attack survivors while the survivors have none.
6 -
- Killers are 15% faster than survivors by default and can gain an extra 15% haste, base kit, since shortly after the game's release (bloodlust). If moving at 110% speed is handholding, what's moving at 130% speed?
- Exposed, as well as killer powers that insta-down, enable deep wounds, or bypass the first health state by giving a free injure or enable broken status effect.
- Undetectable
- …Ok I have nothing for this one, but also who cares? it's like 10 seconds of anti-tunnel
- Killers have been able to see the aura of gens since day 1, allowing them to both strategize which gens they're going to defend and to know which areas to patrol.
- This is just the same as your first point (which I already disproved) but even worse
- …and this is a worse version of your second point.
- Killers could (and were actively trying to) win by actively avoiding progressing their win condition
- The gall to complain about anti face camp in a patch where it got nerfed from its already near-useless state, lmao. Anyway AFC is designed to try to get people to actually play the game, it's as much a mechanic for handholding killers and gently guiding them to the actual gameplay as it is "handholding" survivors
- IMO if you think this is handholding you've lost the plot. This is information that self-evidently should be on the shared survivor HUD to bridge the gap between solo and SWF. It's as much handholding as any of the information on the Killer HUD.
- …yeah some of the pallet changes are pretty bad
you've got like one, maybe one and a half valid points out of the 11 things you've mentioned by name. many of them have analogues for the killer side that have been in the game for far longer.
what's particularly frustrating about this is that in principal I agree with you on the specific issue of those hook-spreading bonuses. i think they were fine and i'm disappointed that BHVR removed them. what's galling here is the insinuation that survivors having access to mechanics in general, many of which mirror mechanics available to killers (often mechanics that have been in the game for years prior to the introduction of the survivor analogue). it feels incredibly out of touch and one-sided - when killers have always had a mechanic, that's all well and good, but give survivors something remotely similar, and that's hand-holding? give me a break.
8 -
The devs are still convinced the game is killer sided cus of these horribly skewed stats. Everything they change is based off the stats, rather than the devs actually playtesting their game, if they watched a few minutes of high mmr or even a swf, they'd see how much better the role is than majority of the roster.
-6 -
It was hand holding in the sense that the game was telling you what to do, not do it for you.
The unhook protections give an opportunity to evade a tunnel but it still requires survivors to make the correct decisions. Unhook at the right time, use the aura and stealth to avoid killers line of sight.
I don't know why people are focusing so much on this particular comment.4 -
Based on the thread, my opinion is that the devs probably should've sat back for this one.
0 -
Again, watch the stream, the devs seem like they have no clue whats going on. That is the entire point i'm making.
14 -
I was quoting the devs in the stream.
14 -
Ah i see, well if you aren't willing to have a reasonable discussion about it there really isn't much of a point.
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