Thing that keeps me mad for a month
I just need to talk it out, because this thing has been on my mind for a month now because of how dumb it is.
"… conditions to activate it aren’t very difficult". I understand that devs needed some sore reason to describe this Pop nerf, but this is such a spit in the face. Saying this about one of the most demanding on activation perks is just a mockery of killers or complete misunderstanding of their own game. And I just want to compare it to some things on survivor side, which I see every game, because, once again, win some time, like many other things, allowed only for survivors and arrow turns exclusively in only one direction, when it comes to balance discussions.
So to activate Pop killer needs:
- Find chase
- Win chase
- Hook survivor (and it's a challenge now in some matches, thanks to sabo buff)
- Find a gen, which at least has 50% of progress to win ~15-20s on average
And that without keeping in mind that you should pray that gen won't be poped into your face; that you will find a chase before using it and need to decide to lose perk value or ignore chase; that you simply won't have time to go check all gens after hook unless you are high mobility killer in most matches on majority of maps.
So let's compare this insanely easy to activate perk to things that require a crazy amount of work to buy time on survivor side:
Syringe: Press M2+Space to win 24-32 seconds.
Toolboxes: Bring item to win 10-20 sec. Add BNP to win even more.
Exhaustions: Do usual chase to buy 15-20 sec on average to it. (Easily can win a lot more)
Bring Medkit + Syringe + Exhaustion and it's already 1 gen time value during the match. It's one survivor value.
So don't forget folks: killer bringing 4 slowdowns = overpowered.
Survivors bring over 300sec of time savers/wasters = balanced and allowed.
I don't complain about slowdown nerf, since I don't play and sweat to win in most cases anyway, so slowdown is just a tool for me, with which I get more chases. I complain about devs allow themselves to make statements that are so far from reality and no doubt extremely biased. I complain about community's hypocrisy (what is understandable, because survivors are majority), that extremes should always be banned/nerfed on one side, but they can safely exist on the other for long years.
Thanks. Just needed to say it.
Comments
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I mean, people kinda did themselves a disservice by pushing for the second dead hard nerf. When people were calling it 'free' to have to be injured, not deep wounded, recently hooked, have a half second of timing, depend entirely on your opponent, and hope you win the latency coin toss, then everything else in the game must also be 'easy to activate' by comparison.
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Firstly, i'm not against exhaustion or something, i'm just comparing it.
Secondly, DH fully deserved every bit of nerf it got. I still see nightmares, where I'm breathing into survivor's neck for 10 seconds E V E R Y damn chase just because one perk exists into the game, not even into the match. And it's still one of the most popular and strongest perks for survivors in right hands and free health state against M2 killers. So nah, I don't think so.13 -
In all fairness, you could apply this logic to killer perks just as much as survivor perks. NoeD rewards the killer for losing, Sloppy does a fantastic job limiting healing for just a basic attack reward, Deadlock punishes survivors for getting multiple gens progressed, Corrupt is literally just free early game pressure, Lethal Pursuer as a concept.
Idk, I feel this is less a of a sides issue and more of just how the game is balanced. As for Pop specifically, I can't run it by itself anymore , as it doesn't give enough regression to be worth taking over the alternatives. The nerf is fine in the context of Pop being with 3 other slowdown perks, but I'd rather run Beast of Prey or godforbid Knockout before resorting to those tactics. Ultimately, I'd rather this nerf be here than not since it means I've gotten to see some of the weirder regression perks since the change. It feels nice breaking a Ruin Undying again rather than just taking a nap whenever a hook happens and Grim Embrace, Dead Man's, Pop, and Pain Res all activate.
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Yeah, I could understand if they said that about any other perk that actually doesn't require much work to have value from it, but not about Pop, which completely opposite from it.
I also dropped Pain Res and Pop from my builds. Pain Res already was insanely situational and RNG perk, now it's not worth it and even more RNG perks like ruin can give you more value. Pain Res could be fine with 25%, but with 20% just doesn't worth it. And I want really hard to bring some alternatives, but killer perks sucks so hard, which I was once again convinced of during Chaos event. Nerfing popular options without buffing unpopular is strange decision for me, because nothing really changed in majority.5 -
You forgot to mention the most egregious example Windows Of Opportunity. Literally requires absolutely nothing to activate and makes everyone who uses it a far better looper. Insanely strong perk that is literally free.
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Can't agree on this, bad looper is still bad looper, even with WoO. Bad loopers with this perk even worse for team than good one, which already good even without this perk, because half of map will be deadzone after first chase of bad looper with WoO. It's no doubt free value, but can't say it buys you that much time or something.
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imagine complaining about windows of opportunity
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First time I’ve ever used the perk I got my first ever 5 gen chase and have never been able to come close without it. A bad looper may give up the pallets instantly but if your team has a single brain cell you would have 3 gens popped by the time they go down. And bad loopers usually can’t find loops to begin with or don’t know that pallets have been used.
I have never downed a single person I thought who was bad at looping and found out they were using Windows. It is in fact an overpowered perk that is only bad on people who have less than 10 hours in the game.
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Who’s complaining about it? I’m just pointing out the simple fact it’s a very strong perk that is free. It can’t be denied either it’s factual only. Otherwise it wouldn’t have a 30% pickrate on a character who isn’t even free
And Imagine saying Pop is too easy to get and provides too much value when Windows literally has no requirement and has insane value. It makes the strongest loopers even stronger.Post edited by HexHuntressThighs on5 -
Okay, gonna stop after the first paragraph.
Getting a down isn't a big ask. Gonna be real. It's 2024 DBD, not 2018.
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What is this "stopped reading after" cringe fashion on forum recently? Don't waste your time on post and don't expect OP will respect your opinion in comments, if you are not gonna read whole post. What a strange proud of childish maximalism.
Getting down isn't big ask just because survivors are not god mode anymore like it was in 2018? Insane logic. Even if it were true, it's still require several time more work to activate it than many many other things on both sides.11 -
I think you're massively overstating how much work Pop requires. It's literally just playing the game as usual and kicking a gen in a certain time window.
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So to activate Pop killer needs:
- Find chase
- Win chase
- Hook survivor (and it's a challenge now in some matches, thanks to sabo buff)
- Find a gen, which at least has 50% of progress to win ~15-20s on average
Aka - just play the game. Sounds pretty simple to me.7 -
This is kind of exactly what I'm talking about tho.
A perk that only works in the pvp aspect of the game being called 'free', while simultaneously exaggerating how 'laborious' and 'skillful' it is to kick a PvE gen, which can't move, you get a permanent aura of it's location, and there's nothing the other team can do about it. (Chases, by the way, are also inevitable that you get a down)
It's the same double standard that got CoH nerfed too: somehow finding and blessing a totem is 'free' yet kicking a gen is some immaculate display of skill that takes 4 minutes to complete.
Please.
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You just hook some on and kick a gen bro... You don't need a essay about that... Like you don't need anything else other than to hook and kick. It's insanely easy to activate. You addeding extra personal conditions to it isn't fair for sake of argument
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Windows is a terrible perk that just acts as wasting a perk slot as a killer you really should cheer that the other team is playing with 25% value of perks
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yea. idk who complains about hook requirement dh anymore. i personally didn't even want it nerfed to have hook req but man it was such a relief after that, the "dead hard dance" was so lame and annoying and it turned out the game is so much better w/o it. also sorry but dead harding under a pallet against a non m2 attack killer is one of the most free things that can be done in this game so hard disagree on that too.
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- I think the problem wasn't POP, but POP combined with 2 - 3 other regression perks (which was very common). if the killers had limited themselves to using one, maximum 2 regression perks per match... I don't think we would have reached this point. for killers DBD is a game where time is precious... but it's the same for survivors; if you add 30 seconds (for example) of regression to a generator every time it's a problem. It has nothing to do with the "boring of repairing the generators", but because the resources on the map (pallets) run out, so each chase will be shorter, and in the end the game will be lost "automatically"
(obviously from the perspective of a killer who plays decently... if you are a mediocre killer no perks will help you)
NOTE: I agree with you. POP was the most nerfed perk
0 - I think the problem wasn't POP, but POP combined with 2 - 3 other regression perks (which was very common). if the killers had limited themselves to using one, maximum 2 regression perks per match... I don't think we would have reached this point. for killers DBD is a game where time is precious... but it's the same for survivors; if you add 30 seconds (for example) of regression to a generator every time it's a problem. It has nothing to do with the "boring of repairing the generators", but because the resources on the map (pallets) run out, so each chase will be shorter, and in the end the game will be lost "automatically"
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If you aren't getting downs consistently, which is what I'm being led to believe from "getting a down is one of the most demanding conditions", then even if Pop was 100%, it wouldn't help.
You want me to take things seriously and not meme? Make a better argument than, "Survivor perks are easier to activate and getting downs is too hard."
You had any number of decent arguments about Pop and you chose this one.
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the reason windows doesn’t require anything to activate is because it’s just an aura reading perk💀it’s like bond.
also getting pop goes the weasel to active is just normal gameplay. Nothing special. There are a bunch of killer perks that active with you doing nothing so going at windows of opportunity is pretty pathetic1 -
the reason windows doesn’t require anything to activate is because it’s just an aura reading perk
Ultimate weapon was just an information perk too... Just saying
But Distortion and WoO didn't work, which was clearly unacceptable.
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Oh, so you know another slowdown perk which requires more work than Pop? Let us know which perk demand something more than down a survivor, shed some light on it.
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Oh my.
Ultimate Weapon still inflicts Blindness. And it still counters Distortion. It just does not reveal Survivors Location for 30 seconds anymore, which was ridiculous.
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It's random, just unreliable.
I suggested nerf to end the effect after first scream, which would be fine and just reliably get you into chase.
Current version is just terrible on most maps. It can get use maybe from Huntress/Trickster, but that's about it.
I will rather use Spies from Shadows than UW, it's just trash.
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Believe me or not, but Spies actually insane info perk. I recently changed most of my info perks on that on some killers. Some matches it can be not that good, but give it a chance.
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That was not your argument.
You directly compared Pop to Survivor perks, not to any other Killer perk.
Try not to move your own goalposts :)
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Been awhile since I saw one of these posts.
"…conditions to activate it aren’t very difficult". I understand that devs needed some sore reason to describe this Pop nerf, but this is such a spit in the face.Difficult here in the sense that is just something that happens during normal gameplay. Most powerful perks have some type of limitation on them.
On your examples:
Syringe and toolbox are items, not perks. They run out. Like killer addons bringing better ones makes the game easier. I have problems with that, but its another discussion.
Exhaustion: Game is basically balanced around the idea of survivors having one.
Saying this about one of the most demanding on activation perks is just a mockery of killers or complete misunderstanding of their own game.Here's the thing I don't get, if Pop is so hard to get value out of, what's the concern? If Pop is an overrated perk then the killers aren't losing that much by it going away. But we're in this weird grey zone were Pop has massive draw backs where killers can rarely get value out of it, but also killers will be in massive trouble if this perk gets nerfed.
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LMAO yes, maybe because it was YOUR argument? YOU said that Pop doesn't requires much, and i'm asking: do you know any other slowdown perk that requires more work than Pop?
I compared Pop to survivors things which win comparatively the same amount of time for doing almost nothing, yes. And you trying to prove what? That find-win chase, go find hot gen is the same amount of work as press M2 on mouse, press space into window or bring item into the match?
Try maybe to understand what the dialogue is about first, read the post that you are trying to comment on before giving out advices, lol.6 -
I have tried it with new exhaustion crow perk. (Not that good imo)
But spies from the shadows definitely surprised me and gave me lot of value in most games, but it's definitely map dependant. Indoor maps had way worse results for me.
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DBD is an asymmetrical game. You cannot compare the two sides as they are, for all intents and purposes, different games.
Pop does not require much, objectively. If you are playing DBD, assuming you are somewhat competent, you are going to get downs. You will activate Pop. Comparatively, Pop is slightly, and I do mean slightly, more difficult to activate than PR, in that you need to walk to a gen. Much less difficult to get value than Ruin though or more derived slowdowns, like Sloppy on a stealth Killer.
Once again, Survivor is effectively a different game. The roles are uncomparable.
I saw this exact argument when Pop was nerfed the first time.
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Old Eruption, CoB, Overcharge, NWTH meta requirements :
-Kick a gen
Ultimate Weapon insane requirement :
-Open a Locker
But bet you were one of those who defended these perks to the hilt because when it comes to double standars you'all are the best.
Also, you are comparing a perk that requires you to just play the game with 1 add-on and 1 item, are you serious?2 -
i would accept "hey, pop gives way too much value considering its requirements is just how game goes in majority of matches" as the explanation but getting a hook and kicking a highly progressed gen manually is nowhere near an easy thing to do especially when compared to other perks on both sides.
furthermore, even saying it's the normal gameplay flow isn't always true. there is sadako, there is tombstone myers, there is slugging, and there are times you can't afford wasting time picking, hooking and then arriving to protect a gen.
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There are certain situations where you can't hook. That doesn't mean it's not normal gameplay.
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I personally love the reason for the PainRes nerf more "want to make this Perk less of a clear choice for all builds". The nerf didn't change anything in terms of perk choices. If they want more perk diversity in killer builds they just can't only nerf the good ones and leave the average, bad, and risky ones as they are since otherwise the nerfed ones are still the best choice (players still run Pop, Pain, GE, and Corrupted). However, nerfing the best perks and then hoping for a change is the easiest way.
I understand what you say. Some nerfs on one side were absolutely fine since they were not healthy for the game like old Eruption. However, it always depends on if it's not healthy or if you just want a change when the metagame gets stuck and stagnates and in my opinion the developers wanted the second one. I can understand that facing full slowdown - basically the same build again and again - every match is not good and the meta is stucked but just to nerf these things won't bring a change. I think the developers went the easy way by nerfing the perks without giving us alternatives to use different builds. Thus, they can't say that since otherwise they would expose theirself but giving a bad reason is also not good. I really hope the developers will buff or rework other perks to make them more viable. Some perks just need a little tweak (reducing or increasing one number) to be good. It's not that difficult.
There is also the problem that the developers didn't ask themself why many killers run full slowdown: With the recent nerf to all the strong perks, playing weaker killers became much more difficult and harder because they are rely on this extra power as their mainpower is rather weak. The stronger killer,s on the other hand, don't mind these nerfs very much. They still perform very great. The result is that many (or at least some players) will stop playing these weaker killers and start to play the stronger ones which means that survivors will still face the same full slowdownbuild but will see more often Nurse, Blight, Spirit, and Wesker. I don't think this is healthy. Sure the developers give weaker killers some good QoL changes, tweaks, and buffs but many of them feel a little bit of a makeshift repair (e.g. Bubba has still some issues, Demogorgons Portals are still weak, Pigs Dash is only a little bit better). And in return they nerf some of the stronger killers like Blight and Wesker which is very good (no complains about this). It is also questionable if it's a good idea to nerf the perks that these killers need first and then buffing them a few months later (Freddy, Trapper, Sadako, Ghost Face, Legion and some more still feel rather weak).
I complain about community's hypocrisy (what is understandable, because
survivors are majority), that extremes should always be banned/nerfed
on one side, but they can safely exist on the other for long years.I think I understand this correctly, if not please correct me: This is a general issue on both sides because many players play one side and missing the other experience to understand why some things are the way they are. I played for along time competitive Pokémon and I as well as the opponent played the same game with the same Pokémon and the same experience since it makes no difference when you switch the side: It will change nothing. However, this is not the case for DbD. Playing killer and playing survivor is a huge difference in terms of experiences and feelings. I really wish we could get a modifier that would force us to make the experience of the otherside to understand them a bit better. (I read a lot of posts from you, I know you know that but I want to say it for players that might not know it)
I think hooking a survivor is a good requirement to active a killer perk because it rewards the killer for doing good. There are also not many options besides that since killers don't have the time to go out of their way. If the requirement for hooking is missing or would be take too much time (e.g. blessing a hook for 10sec to turn it into a PainRes or hook a survivor within 30sec after hitting them to activate Pop) then slugging would be much more common since you can win games this way. In addition, if you don't find this requirement good then what is the alternative? Survivors also have perks that reward them for doing what they should do anyway: Generators (Blastmind, Wiretrap, Flashbang) or unhooking/healing (We'll Make it, Botany). Of cause there are perks on both sides that don't have a (high) requirement like Corruption or LP. However, this is more of an exchange for a better early game since this is the weakest point of every killer. Survivors, for example, have WoO that gives them more self-confidence or Bound. Sometimes it is good when a perk has no requirement when it's affact has a healthy effect on the game. However, (in my opinion) there are still perks, items and Add-Ons that are neither healthy, good for the metagame or do something else positive that should be reworked like NOED, Knock Out, Syringe, strong Toolboxes, Distortion or instadown Add-Ons but this is a different story.
Too make it short: even when the requirement is that what you do anyway doesn't mean it is always bad or easy. It can be healthy for the game to not push the otherside in an unhealthy, unfun or something like this direction. There is also the psychological aspect for grind that the hook rewarded you with pressure and then the perk activates and then finding and kicking a gen with good progress feels good for many players.
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Oh, so now "it's different" argument comes in clutch, of course. Roles are uncomparable, I agree here. But time is comparable and amount of work for buying this time is absolutely comparable.
Yeah, like I said above, nerfing best options without buffing worst/mediocre is very strange decision, which won't change anything. I just hope that next midchapter is a huge perks overhaul. Especially on killer side, because on survivors I don't have problems with variety at all, not even close to killers situation.
I think I understand this correctly, if not please correct me
Not exactly this. I'm not respect opinions of one side players anyway, these people almost never want balance, but only chill game with insane amount of crutches they ask for themselves. You won't be any good at this game if you don't play both sides, that is what I hard believe in.
But I'm talking about another thing. About way of thinking of majority. Few examples:
There is always discussions "oh this perk broken for high tier killers", but there is none "this perk is broken for SWF", because, you know, not every SWF is good players, but of course every high tier killer is 10K hours god tier player, which impossible to win.
We always assume survivors, when talking about "new players", because if new killer can't keep up with something, then "oh he just need become better", but if new survivor player need to learn something, there is always "oh not everybody can live in this game to learn everything, it's party game, you know".
4 slowdown killer is too much and let's create typos for perks and give killer only 1 or 2. SWF using strongest stuff every game? Oh chill, just go next, you know, you don't play against it every game, it's alright.
Good killer should win majority of his game and those winstreaks are showcase, but lets act like good SWF doesn't win 95-99% of their games. It's different, you know.
I'm talking about these harmful biases that are well-established in the community, and I can give these examples for very long.(I read a lot of posts from you, I know you know that but I want to say it for players that might not know it)
Thank you for that! It's always a pleasure to have a conversation with you!
I think hooking a survivor is a good requirement to active a killer perk because it rewards the killer for doing good.
Exactly. Half of people here act like hooking survivor is free and you just bring a perk and it just helps you regardless of how you doing. No, it's not and that's why hooking meta is most healthy meta in dbd history. I saw so many killers which bring Pain Res, Pop, Grim and it did almost nothing for them, because they were struggling with chase. Exhaustion win you time regardless of how good you doing, it's just value every chase for bringing perk, not for doing good.
We can discuss how hard or not it is to catch survivor, if is reward too big or too small for this on Pop, but in the end it's just a fact that Pop has most complicated requirement and biggest amount of work to get value from. Among slowdown perks definately and among most of perks overall on both sides. And that's what this post about in a half.2 -
Glad to hear it! New exhaustion perk is kinda underrated also. I thought it's bad, until I played custom with friends with and against this perk. It gives you a lot of value, when you whole team use exhaustions. You don't see this value, but it is there. And with Spies it even better and helps you to see this value in some degree.
I would say you NEED to use it with Spies to get value from it in half of cases.0 -
when you whole team use exhaustions.
That's the issue and it can't be Sprint Burst.
It's just terrible without Spies for sure.
But I think there are simply way better chase perks, which cam give you more value and more reliable.
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Maybe you are right, I'm still testing it. But deny someone's Lithe or dh is huge anyway. At least it not completely bad option, how many others perks are.
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time is not comparable, as the roles are different. There are too many variables to account for, generally.
Comparing Pop to a Syringe is silly. Compare Pop to Deja Vu instead.
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Devs say some things that make them seem quite out of touch.
The way I see it, this reasoning given by them disincentivizes multiple hook games which I thought was supposed to be the more healthy way to play the game.
Guess I was mistaken.
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