Devs are trying to make the killer as unfun and unrewarded as possible

What recent changes are you specifically referring to? If the pallet density, they've set up a feedback sub-forum you can contribute to

The camping changes are not impressive and a new killer who doesn't know the camp meter exists is gonna learn the hard way either way.

New killer players according to data trying to tunnel/camp etc the most because it's logical to get one player out as quickly as possible to win.

Is it the most logical, or did they watch some streamers to figure out the game and learned it there? Because I started this game as a killer-only player and knew nothing but what I figured out, and I didn't tunnel, camp, or slug. I didn't even consider these things until I started playing survivor and they happened to me. I was totally puzzled by these things when I encountered them.

Instead of the game explaining "intended way"

The game is in desperate need of a better tutorial for both roles. I think everyone agrees there. But this is going to give new players an indication of what to do. If returning to the hook never reveals the location of the unhooked survivor it's no longer logical to seek them out unless you have a clear LoS. Players can still tunnel without punishment, it's just more difficult and potentially less rewarding. And if the tactic fails, those new players won't rely on it. That's the whole point.

But new players aren't the issue. They'll accept the game as they find it. It's people with thousands of hours who are too accustomed to these tactics that don't want to change.

I don't see how any of these very scaled-down measures could hurt me as killer. They might help me a little as survivor in very specific situations, against certain types of players, but this narrative that everyone plays "optimal" isn't true. Hard tunneling happens in maybe one in every 5-10 of my survivor matches. Plenty of people already don't lean on cheese strats.

I'm pretty sure most people, when starting a game nowadays, will look up some guides, especially for a game that has basically nothing built-in,. Even more so if they're having trouble grasping it.

Again, unlike the previous ptb, there is no punishment. That's like saying the basekit BT or the burst of speed after being hit is a punishment. It's just part of the game, and Elusive would be too, if it can get to live.

And editing whole paragraphs into a response that's already been replied to is very disingenuous.

The pallet update just happened and everyone is talking about it as though the game has been totally ruined. There's every indication they're going to get reduced anyway.

What direction? It's some minor buffs. They're trying to do something for players who've been unhappy, complaining, and quiting for years. You do need people to play survivor too. I play it less and less. A lot of my friends are either playing more killer or leaving. There can't just be killers.

There are already body blocks with the basekit BT though. If someone wants to use their protection on that, let them. Then down them again. That's an open invitation. And yeah, specific scenarios. I'll use my BT to body block if my rescuer is on death hook and I'm not, but for the most part, I'll take my assistance and leave. Most people will, and it's the average, normal players that need the help most.

There's already several lengthy discussions about the survey. Everyone has made their points. I'm in the camp that the survivor issues are what they want info on right now, so that's what they're collecting. There is no conspiracy against killers. This is one game, one playerbase, and many people play both roles. To think there's any bias (aside from profit) is just absurd.

Unfortunately they can't do much about the game's design because even trying something out on the PTB causes killer players to lose their collective minds.

If these changes go live without any modification you will be as free to tunnel after the update as you were before. Choice is not being taken out of your hands. Giving individual survivor players some tools to counterplay a killer who wishes to tunnel does not equal punishment. Punishment is blocking gen regression or bumping up gen repair speeds if tunneling conditions are detected - both things killers complained about and got dropped from consideration as potential mechanics.

Why do only killers deserve things? Isn't it possible that killers have had too much for too long and survivors need to be caught up?

We've already done this anti-tunneling song and dance once, and Killer players fought hard not to get those changes implemented because they were terrible. The fact that these changes are just as bad tells me the devs barely learned a thing from that PTB.

I can forgive a developer team making mistakes, running failed experiments, but I draw the line at making the same mistake twice.

What kind of incentives would be "game changing" enough to get people to spread out hooks?

How do you know what i want to see in the game? The proposed changes don't look like they'll prevent tunnelling. Looks like they'll just make it slightly more inconvenient. But again, the PTB isn't even out yet.

I do not think individual killer buffs, any perks or base-kit band-aids will ever change fundamental flaws in core game mechanics. Only actual changes to core game loop can actually fix issues

I actually agree with this. Unless or until there are changes to the core game nothing significant will change.

I've actually proposed a "hook donation" system in the past, where survivors basically share the first hook in a pool, and "second hook" and "death hook" are individual. It doesn't change the goal of eliminating someone as fast as possible, but it significantly alters how killers will get there. You can't just camp or tunnel through effectively 6 hook stages without eating so much time that you lose, and it drives the game toward getting hooks as fast as possible.

I doubt that will ever happen, but it would be an example of how to change the meta. Although, I think people would still dislike it because they don't like change, among other things.

If devs want killers to hook different survivors then it has to be the goal, this goal should be rewarded, not with some BPs and a bit of bloodlust, it should be game-changing incentives.

I think BP incentives are a harmless incentive that shouldn't be controversial. It isn't going to "fix" anything, by a long shot, but it also is one of the few ways that also doesn't impact game balance in any way. It might only incentivise a small group, but I think it's worth it given that it basically costs nothing, and doesn't cause a balance problem.

You as a player should want to play this way, not restricted to.

My main disagreement is mostly this: we already learned a long time ago that comeback mechanics need limits or it causes problems. It's why I brought up things disabling in end game, which I've always thought was reasonable. But without those limitations, the game was pretty different after the gates were powered. Putting those restriction in was necessary.

The main problem with something like tunneling is that there isn't a limitation in using it, at least not a limitation that people will admit to. And, unfortunately, that limits the conversation in an awful lot of areas.

You can't really have a discussion about "how to fix m1 killers", for example, without someone using it to tunnel. Even if we went extreme, like "after each hook the trapper can teleport to any gen in the map exactly once (like Freddy)". Sounds good, fixes some of the large map and traversal issues, and can cut down the time between chases.

Except, people will just use it to slow walk across the map, kick a gen, and teleport back the instant they get an unhook notification to tunnel.

At some point, those tactics need to have limits, or people will do them excessively, especially if it wins games. There was no buff we could give to stop 3 genning, it has to be limited to get people to stop. Tunneling is the same way, unfortunately.

I think BP incentives are a harmless incentive that shouldn't be controversial. It isn't going to "fix" anything, by a long shot, but it also is one of the few ways that also doesn't impact game balance in any way. It mightonly incentivise a small group, but I think it's worth it given that it basically costs nothing, and doesn't cause a balance problem.

But the changes they are being used to bribe people for ARE a balance issue. BP is a fine extra external incentive if you want to err on the side of caution for killer compensation but the actual meaningful compensation NEEDS to be IN THE GAME ITSELF, and it needs to actually be worthwhile or nothing changes. People are going to double down because there is no incentive at all not to tunnel because apparently (to no ones surprise) survivors cried about killers getting only half decent benefits and we cant have that in our survivor game where only they are allowed good things can we?

Even then, the number is absolutely laughable. Really shows how much the team cares (not) about killer players. They can try adding some 0's on the end and maybe people might care enough to sabotage their own games. Gimme 10k a hook and ill let little timmy run around longer, otherwise i get more BP just playing properly…

Yeah I don't argee with that narrative. But I think a lot of people use the terms too liberally. If you get unhooked and hop right on the gen next to the hook while still injured, of course you're getting downed again. And leaving someone on the ground to pursue a potential saboteur or to break pallets isn't egerious slugging. But also, both those examples will be unaffected by these new measures, thanks to the conspicuous action and lengthy slug recovery time.

But I will say, it's been steadily growing worse in my survivor matches lately and I do go multiple games with hard tunneling. It just depends, often on time of day or region.