http://dbd.game/killswitch
Solve the tunneling problem in one sentence
When you read the patch notes to the PTB you will see a long list of proposed anti-tunnel changes and many people have re-acted negatively to this. It's almost comical to some people even.
So why don't you - community member - in one sentence propose the simplest change possible that will have minimal effect on the game yet serve to reduce or prevent tunneling.
Comments
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One sentence is hard. But I made some suggestions.
- How to get the Survivor out of the tunneling process.
- How to reward the killer or atleast don´t make the Anti Tunnel feature abusable.
First of all I tried to think about "What is Tunneling for the mayority of the Survivors and Devs" and I came to the following conclusion.
For the most Survivors tunneling occurs when the Killer goes for the same target twice in a row. Most of the time I heard that it is impossible to do something if the Killer wants you out he will chew through any Anti Tunnel and Anti Tunnelperk in existance. So how about this:
If the survivor gets unhooked he gets an new state "call it illusive or what so ever". In this state, the survivor becomes ghost like and the Killer can not interact with the Survivor at all. (No hitting, no grabbing, no bodyblocking) This state is active as long as the Survivor does no suspicious action, another Survivor gets hooked or he wants to abbandon the state when the Killer is out of the terror radius or a fix distance (because of undetectable).
Now you ask why should a survivor abbandon the state and it could be abused to get safely to a gen. But what if the survivor can only move slowly while in this state and I mean slowly. This would have the following affect.
If the Killer decides to tunnel or follow the Survivor he can´t do anything, while the rest of the team finishes the gens and escape. (So it is not viable)
The Killer on the other hand gets some natural slow down, because the Survivor moves slowly and can not hop straight back to a gen.
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So if we took this idea of a Ghost and applied some additional ideas for thought to it. So the main problem with anti-tunnel is that it essentially can remove one person from the game for an extended period. That reduces kind of the urgency factor of the game which is really important. You need urgency for survivors, you need urgency for the killer.
With that in mind a simple anti-tunnel feature could simply be just 7 seconds of invisibility/invulnerability coming off the hook for one hook state. You can't be injured in this state, you leave no scratch marks or blood pools. You make no sounds. And for 3 seconds after coming out of this state you can't use your items so you can't just like immediately blind the killer or sabotage a hook or something which would be unfair. But this maintains a sense of urgency because you have to get away and the killer gets 7 seconds if they want to try and guess which way you've traveled.
i kind of like of it.
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Well thanks.
But I think the status should hold longer so that you can´t Proxycamp and when you do the only thing you can do is going for the unhooker.
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Make all survivors share all 12 hook states.
No tunnelling/camping anymore.
-6 -
The Problem with that idea is if someone decides to troll or go next he will just run permanent to the killer.
Than everyone loses cause of one person.
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Make it so killers are incentivized to not tunnel, which includes both rewards for not tunneling, and punishments for tunneling.
Simply put, try pulling more ideas from the original antitunnel draft.
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How would this work? Couldn't you just keeping hooking the same weak link over and over?
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This is why you hybridize it and use a donation system.
Each survivor can choose to donate their first hook to a shared hook pool that everyone uses first before individual states. If someone is wanting to abuse it, they can't get your hook state without your permission.
Even then, of you limit it to first hook only, you can still eliminate someone at hook 6 and everyone has only "second" and "death" hooks left.
Still nukes camping and tunneling, prevents abuse.
Then we can finally have an open area to talk about buffing the killers who actually need it.
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This, plus the unhooked survivor would be injured off hook and basically have a shorter chase by default.
I'd go with a repair speed increase upon first kill, which scales down with number of hooks. First kill on three hooks nets the biggest bonus, whereas six hooks doesn't incur any.
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So… shoulder the burden basekit?
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Every time a survivor dies, recalculate the total required charges for all remaining uncompleted generators to be equal to the original charge count minus a percentage calculated as the ratio of completed generators to total required generators multiplied by the ratio of killed survivors to the total count of all survivors both alive and dead.
No gens complete, one survivor dead:
5/5 * 1/4 = 25%1 gen complete, one survivor dead:
4/5 * 1/4 = 20%2 gen complete, one survivor dead:
3/5 * 1/4 = 15%3 gen complete, one survivor dead:
2/5 * 1/4 = 10%2 gens complete, 2 survivors dead
3/5 * 2/4 = 30%A modifier could be added to scale down the percentage by some value if it's too much but by calculating an initial value based on ratios that describe the match's progress you naturally scale the downside to tunneling down as the match progresses. This would most affect those that tunnel right off the bat at 5 gens and less if the survivors are making progress and they really do have to tunnel as some killer players claim.
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Kind of. Except without being exposed, screaming, or unhook requirement.
I've also proposed in the past that you should be able to donate your first hook state from anywhere, but limit it by either total % gen progress across the map (not necessarily completed - to prevent 99ing) or simply by time (first 4 minutes you can donate, but lock after that).
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Remove / Delay the unhook notification and punish hard tunnelling with a 25% gen speed bonus.
(By hard tunnelling I mean the typical definition - hooking the same Survivor 3 times in succession, usually at the start of the trial)
I felt these changes would've been the most impactful ones for addressing tunnelling from the last system. Of course the Killer could just proxy their hook, but that would come at the expense of giving up all their map pressure. This would also make tunnelling equally ineffective regardless of the Killer's mobility. Currently, Killers like Billy and Blight can go bother Survivors elsewhere on the map but can always quickly return to tunnel an unhooked Survivor.
Probably wouldn't solve it completely, but I think these changes could make tunnelling a lot more difficult and a lot less rewarding for Killers.
Post edited by tjt85 on1 -
I would say this would work the best to deter tunneling.
At least if we don't want to imply punishments on the killers, having the unhook notifications being removed / delayed would help a lot.
I see many killers drop chase with one survivor, just to beeline it back to the hook as soon as the first hooked gets off.0 -
Yeah this would do the opposite of stopping tunneling. It would be super tunneling. Imagine getting hooked 12 times and then the team looses. Not just a terrible experience, but compounded by the heat your team would send your way.
Yeah some variation of the repair speed boost should at least make a comeback, even if direct punishments won't.
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These are the concepts that need to go through, particularly the unhook notification. It might not solve the problem but could help a lot. It's the disproportionate value of tunneling that has to be reduced for it to be quelled. If it ceases to be the easiest path to victory than it will become less common.
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Make it the same as 2v8 - hook moves away from killer after being hooked, no hook highlight, no unhook notification, and hook moves if camped.
Problem solved.
-1 -
The backlash from fellow survivors is honestly the first thing I think of when I hear proposals for shared hook states. I can't imagine what the end game chat would be if I dare eat up more than my share of hooks.
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Once a survivor is unhooked, they become 'untouchable' for X amount of seconds (however long a regular heal takes).. The survivor can't add to the game in any way, can't be hit, can't body block etc.. They can only heal, be healed or run away.
I don't think we should be giving S and A tier killers any more than they already have. But by all means, give pig, legion, trapper etc a free speed boost or a mini pop.
Sorry I went over the one sentence.
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Here’s my best shot:
Bring back some of the proposed anti-tunnelling measures from the previous patch, but reduce the hook count to 4 or 5 instead of 6, and instead of making generators untouchable after a Survivor death, make it that the stronger gen regression perks (Pain Res, Grim Embrace etc) disable once a Survivor is sacrificed like Ruin used to: baseline Killer movement speed while carrying a Survivor and the animation speed of hooking should be increased, and non-consecutive hooks on different Survivors could impose a temporary Thanatophobia-like effect on repair speeds or global regression on generators.
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hear me out. hand of vecna's locker transportation as the anti-tunnel. every hooked survivor will see one locker on the map highlighted in yellow. if they can make it to that locker they'll be transported to another locker somewhere on the map. the highlighted locker won't always be in close proximity it the hook but it won't be on the other side of the map either. sometimes you'll make it to the locker when tunneled, sometimes you won't. but you'll at least have an escape plan if you absolutely need it.
also i just thought of this idea so don't hate me
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Survivor is moved across the map and away from killer on unhook.
That easy. Now there's none of this complicated nonsense with Endurance, Elusive, and aura reading being abusable to be aggressive. It's just made unnecessary as a feature. You're put away from the killer and he has no idea where you're at. Another assym I play has this feature and it works pretty well.
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Okay totally random idea that I haven't thought out at all and is also more than one sentence:
Upon unhook, a portal only they can enter opens up near the unhooked survivor. Entering it is optional. If the killer is on the other end of the map and busy, then the survivor can get quickly healed and re-engage. If the killer is bearing down on the hook, the survivor can enter the portal, which will take them to a completely different realm. They have a limited time allowed there, cannot heal, but can see the HUD (so can choose a good moment to leave) and exiting out will place them in a spot away from the killer.
So basically teleporting, but engaging and active, more so than the hook just randomly moving on its own. It also allows for some choices, and still involves some tension, because you're reentering the map still injured.
If we're going to make big changes to the game, let's have them expand on the lore and visuals. To me, the best thing about the Haunted by Daylight event is how the Void is a totally different place within a place. So this portal could open to one of several random locations, like the Observer's tower or Vigo's lab or something.
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If someone trolls you're bound to lose anyway. Can you win a 3v1 with the system right now?
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Honestly if killer camps around the hook just to keep targeting that weak link, he's gonna lose because other 3 can freely repair gens without worrying about him die on first hook. Not to mention you can go for the last minute save to prolong the process even more.
And don't forget killer needs to down that weak link 9 times to sacrifice him, which is a lot more than 3 hooks right now.
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Huge killer buffs for each survivor that is still alive AND on death hook after all gens are repaired.
- 1 survivor on death hook and alive killer gets %5 haste
- 2, survivors are exhausted for rest of game
- 3, survivors have their aura revealed to the killer for rest of game
- 4, survivors that are downed are immediately killed and sacrificed by the Entity. Same animation as if EGC time expired and lockers at blocked by the Entity for survivors.
- However if 2 survivors are already dead by then. Then nothing happens no bonuses for killer.
Everyone gets to play out the full match and it fits the lore of DBD. Entity wants drawn out matches not games that end in like 3 minutes. Killer becomes most dangerous during end game, survivors will panic the most and still have that bit of hope escaping. Though perks that work during the end game will have to have number changes or be reworked.
Edit: ok so instead of aura read and exhaustion for remainder of match just 30 seconds worth. Bonuses for killer needs to be big enough to encourage them to let survivors last until end game at least.
Post edited by BlackRabies on-6 -
So one dies at 9 hooks and everyone is now on death hook is how this would work? Would it only apply when someone is consecutively hooked or would everyone otherwise get the hook states they personally acquired if the hooks are spread?
-1 -
Killer doesn't know where the unhooked survivor will be.
(this still allows tunneling, but it prevents the Killer from being the one in primary control of the situation)
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I play Pyramid Head: I can leverage the farthest distance placement to my advantage, especially using gens to get a rough layout of map dimensions.
Edit: If they're also against a map wall, that also limits the routes of access for rescue.
Post edited by AssortedSorting on0 -
Making survivors exhausted forever or revealing their auras is far too strong, but I can get behind permanent Death Hook bonuses without needing endgame to trigger it. Maybe replace it with something more passive to the killer role like faster Bloodlust gain or quicker pallet breaking speed, even a minor haste boost like 2-3% too.
At the very least, the bonuses should be disabled if the death hooked survivor is downed to not encourage slugging.0 -
Honestly fair, below you is a similar suggestion
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The bonuses that killer can have during the end game can be anything really long as it encourages players to have a full match and it at least give the killer a chance to secure a kill or 2.
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Hence the reason I did not say "farthest distance". I specifically didn't say that because of exactly that reason.
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I support what they are currently trying to do. It won't work, but at least they are trying.
I've also suggested the only infallible fix to tunneling, and I've done better than one sentence, I did it one word.
Respawn
The absolute only way to stop tunneling is to make survivors indefinitely respawn until EGC, and have the 'winner' be based on whomever triggered EGC. If killer hooks 10, 11, 12, (hooks past 3 on the same survivor don't count, just cause the person to be unavailable for a time) or whatever arbitrary number, they win, if survivors finish five gens, they win. Bonus points for permakilling or escaping in EGC.
Done. Problem is, too many people are too attached to the fact that the name Dead by Daylight insinuates killing. Honestly, these people want this issue to never be fixed, from my perspective, making their entire agenda stopping any and all suggestions that don't include killers getting ten basekit perks and 100% haste for each unique hook with no punishments. Screw that, I'd rather have the Devs current suggestion that's on the PTB.
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Bring back the 9.2 system, 3v1 survivor bonus is based upon hook states not a flat target, remove the basekit BBQ, don't expect perfection on release and that some things will need to be fine tuned.
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One sentence would be really difficult, but I think I can do it in two and stay in the spirit of the challenge.
"Survivors who have just been unhooked gain a mark that persists until they perform a conspicuous action, 60 seconds have elapsed, or someone else is unhooked. Survivors who are hooked with this mark still on them do not gain a hook state, and their hook timer doesn't start until the mark elapses."
With this system actively targeting the same survivor for the easy post-unhook chase is still doable, but you can't force someone out of the match. It wouldn't be an easy path to victory anymore, so pretty much everyone would stop doing it… unless the survivor is being super aggressive and hooking them would get them out of the way for a bit, which preserve killer agency against aggressive survivors.
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Yeah, basically all survivors share 12 hook states.
Regardless who you chase/camp/tunnel, you can only kill someone when you got 8 hooks.
So no more unfun strategy. It'll also reveal just how difficult it is to get 12 hooks with current gen speed, especially for M1 killers.
PS: I've been suggesting this 5-6 years ago.
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So even if you spread hooks it's still 9 for a kill? I wonder what sort of strategies would emerge with that. I like the idea of everything coming down to the end, I prefer those razor's edge matches, but I also feel that would make it damn hard to win as killer. I wonder how the balance of team member's skills would work out too. Early ratting would be basically pointless and I'm 100% for that.
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They either have to buff the crap out of majority of the Killers, or they'll have to make gens a lot longer. Neither looks fun for Survivors as you see, but you get rid of camp/tunnel, arguably the most hated things by survivors.
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When a killer hooks the survivor they gain a 10% BP stackable increase in all categories for every time they hook a different survivor to the last time, in exchange for not being notified of any survivor being unhooked until they are next in chase (unless the Exit Gates are powered, in which case killers will be given a sound notification).
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