Deliverance can be extremely unsatisfying to use because of the end-game rules
So for example.
You know what you have to do win a game. You have to lead the killer away from the generator being worked on and the exit gates. Its been a crazy-close game, everyone is near death.
So because you haven't been hooked yet you make the only smart play which is to bait the killer into a chase where you will go down across the map but buy your team time to do the last gen and escape.
Of course, it's solo queue so they do escape as you're being hooked. And this kills you. You're given no time to use your deliverance because of the end-game rules forcing the last survivor to be auto-killed.
However, there is some inconsistency here. If 2 people are alive and one is downed, but one is hooked, deliverance will prevent the downed survivor from being moried.
So deliverance will protect your teammate in this situation, but it won't actually protect you when you need it most in some of these situations.
I just don't think it should work this way and its been like this awhile but if you're going to make an attempt to bridge the gap between SWF and solo queue this is one of the many things you can do BHVR. It literally is. A SWF will never just leave their teammate in this situation but a solo queue team frequently will.
So, that's me crying about this great perk being absolutely disappointing and frustrating because of the applied end-game rules.
Comments
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Deliverance deserves to be gutted skull merchant style. Ridiculously unhealthy perk with a crazy strong effect that only procs if the killer DOES NOT tunnel. It's as bad if not worse than old knock out. It's insane to me that this perk still exists in this original state.
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I cannot believe this perk has not been changed since it's realese, I always will be on the side that want deliverance to be nerfed no matter what.
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The thing is this perk is probably going to become even stronger with the anti-tunnel changes. I don't think it needs any buffs.
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What? Given the situation described by OP, it's the exact opposite. If you tunnel, then you are working for imbalance for hooks (e.g. having 6 hooks with 2 people dead and 2 people that could deli). On the other hand if you spread pressure to maximum degree (meaning more then just not tunnel) and you have say just 4 hooks, then every survivor is still just fine, but none of them can deli in endgame.
Meaning that if anything, the perk punishes tunneling.
The only way you could have been right is if you 100% disregard what OP said and you are talking about deli before endgame, where spreading hooks gives (with lesser chance to clear conditions, but more quickly) opportunity to use the perk.
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You have to lead the killer away from the generator being worked on and the exit gates. Its been a crazy-close game, everyone is near death.
So because you haven't been hooked yet you make the only smart play which is to bait the killer into a chase where you will go down across the map but buy your team time to do the last gen and escape.
Taking the OPs scenario, how exactly is this statement true if the killer is tunneling?
The counter point being made is that if the killer spreads hooks, going after unhookers instead of the unhooked, their pressure is then immediately undone by the unhooker having Deli...
So how do you prevent losing your pressure to Deli? You ignore potential Deli users and go straight after the person who was unhooked. If you down them before the safe unhook score event you deny the Deli, but even if you don't, youre encouraged to tunnel them out so that even if the unhooker does have Deli, its impact when they unhook themselves on your pressure later on is much less with 3 Survivors compared to 4.
Deli doesn't get anywhere near the value in SoloQ as it does in SWF, but that's the point, if you suspect Deli, the correct play is to tunnel... that's what makes the perk unhealthy.
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how exactly is this statement true if the killer is tunneling?
If killer is not tunneling, then everyone has been hooked so there's no deli.
The counter point being made is that if the killer spreads hooks, going after unhookers instead of the unhooked, their pressure is then immediately undone by the unhooker having Deli...
Yes. True. Which realistically virtually always happens before endgame. So that's not OPs case.
So how do you prevent losing your pressure to Deli? You ignore potential Deli users and go straight after the person who was unhooked. If you down them before the safe unhook score event you deny the Deli, but even if you don't, youre encouraged to tunnel them out so that even if the unhooker does have Deli, its impact when they unhook themselves on your pressure later on is much less with 3 Survivors compared to 4.
Once again, you are right.
But I have to stress one fact that comes from this and this case is a lot more prevalent in soloQ for obvious reasons… If you are spreading hooks, you don't give many individual chances for deli user to have successful unhook before going down himself - worst case scenario for killer that spread hooks is 3 chances (that can be mitigated by quick down as you wrote) and 9 chances if killer tunnels.
Meaning by spreading hooks you have very high chance of triggering "deli curse" making the perk useless instead.
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I find it pretty ironic that on the same day both kind of topics related to endgame, but for different side appeared. Other person complained on NOED situation…
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It's not basically true. If killer not tunnelling, survivor just use deli within the match, not in endgame.
The only way to avoid deli is hook person before they rescued, and this is pure random. I main executioner, and the only way to counter deli was just sending person to cage first. I did it once within thousand of matches. You can’t deny deli value if it was activated. It’s purely depends on survs play.
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I do apologise man...
I've read 3 times and I just haven't understood... if you're spreading hooks, then you are more likely to run foul of Deli eliminating your pressure... not less.
Less chance of Deli in end game sure if you can hook all Survivors once... assuming you can find/catch them all, but the point is if you're tunneling players out, you're going for pressure by reducing the player count, as opposed to the goal of not tunneling, which is to gain pressure by occupying as many Survivors at once as possible.
In our hypotheticals, the way Deli works, it directly compromises our early to mid game non-tunnel strategy and can even still bite us in end game as well if we can't find certain players... whereas our tunneling strategy doesn't fall foul of Deli unless we make it to end game, because we maintain our full tunnel pressure through the early to mid game...
So I believe that's why we're classing Deli as unhealthy, it directly compromises the pressure non-tunnel strategy in all parts of the game, whereas it only compromises the tunneling if we didn't get enough tunnel pressure early on. If we're gambling on outcomes, tunneling is better vs. the risk of Deli compared to not tunneling.
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I've read 3 times and I just haven't understood... if you're spreading hooks, then you are more likely to run foul of Deli eliminating your pressure... not less.
It is less. Because you are giving less opportunity to ARM deli, before you as a deli user gets hooked.
Are you trying to say that having 6 hooks (and so 6x someone unhooked ⇒ 4 opportunities as you can't unhook dead survivor) happen before killer starts to chase you gives you worse chase to arm deli, then having just 2 chances (given in both cases, that you are 3rd survivor killer starts to focus)?
The other thing is impact - early-to-mid game impact of deli is higher. But that's not CHANCE it actually happens at all.
In our hypotheticals, the way Deli works, it directly compromises our early to mid game non-tunnel strategy and can even still bite us in end game as well if we can't find certain players
That happens ONLY IF survivor was able to unhook safely. A very strong if especially in soloQ where you can't communicate, that other survivors should back off and give you the unhook (which results in you having to "camp" (AKA waste time) freshly hooked survivor so you unhook before your other teammate, while hoping that killer does not notice you AND while hoping some other survivor does not farm hooked person in front of killer).
But once those strong IFs do happen, then I fully agree with you. However in most games (which are made of soloQ or duos) the condition for deli to work is very demanding. Which is the reason why the perk has such a huge payoff
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Ah OK, I get you now, though I do disagree. I think where we're crossing wires is the uses of Deli, vs. its impact on the killers pressure. Sure there are more opportunities for Deli to activate if you're tunneling, but the question is, how impactful is it?
In my experience, both from the perspective as a Survivor and Killer seeing Deli in effect, if a killer is tunneling, Deli is only really costly if in a SWF and the killer camps... which camping has been made pretty bad now. Otherwise, using Deli isn't a big deal, cause the game is pretty much decided by how fast the killer tunneled. In the 3v1, Survivors can maybe stay on gens a bit better, but realistically the Deli player has to come off hook pretty fast to either retake chase, or get back on gens, diminishing its value greatly. The fact the survivor is broken and remains an easy target to put down and tunnel out themselves.... it isn't likely going to turn a losing game; the game is decided by how well the Killer tunneled for their 3rd hook and Deli was never really a factor in the outcome.
Conversely if a killer is spreading hooks, they need to be getting across map and winning chases consistently quickly to maintain their pressure. This is why healing and self healing perks being as strong as they are are so good; it means less downtime when the killer isn't tunneling, meaning Survivors can get back on gens faster. Because all 4 players are still in the game, the killers pressure suffers immensely just from healing perks... with Deli in a SWF though, there is absolutely no need to get off gens at all, the killer spreads hooks, goes after multiple players... however Survivors don't have to come off gens, while all 4 Survivors are alive. The killer ends up with 4 hooks, but no one on death hook and gens advanced much further than they would be without Deli in the equation.
The damage far as I can see is much higher for Deli in the latter.
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The deli fear mongering is crazy lmao no different than how some people make NOED to be a big deal when there's several and many easy ways of counter playing the perk.
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I don't think deli needs a change, it does its job but game mechanics could change but not for survivors, this is supposed to be a horror game not a competitive game solely, deli doesn't do anything but let you unhook yourself, best used in dire situation.
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