http://dbd.game/killswitch
This is what survivors needs to understand
Comments
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Well I think what Scott is saying here is right and I can kinda prove it.
Since I am a Survivor main with a little bit of Killer Time (80/20) I see the exact same problem in DBD. Normally I get some opinions on my topics which I share and my opinions are not liked by all but by some so I get a tendency better upvotes than downvotes.
The only posts where the downvotes escalate are the posts where one of these two things are said.
First: There is a lot of the "The game is unwinnable as Survivor" propaganda in 1v4 for 2v8 and that the game is not worth the time to being played.
Second: If I ask the simple question. "What do Survivors want to feel that the game is fair."
I get downvoted for these two things into oblivion but I never get an answer which is strange.
If these people who say to me the game is unplayabe really have this point, why can no one answer me the question what they need?
So i just beg you before you downvote me, take your time and write an answer to my question, "what in your opinion do survivors need to feel winable for you"
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That we need better matchmaking? I fully agree with him on that and that has always been my biggest problem with the game. I doubt anyone actually watched that far into the video though.
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I don't go next and only really stop trying when the game is clearly over (2 people on or near death hook aren't getting 3 - 5 gens done) but like anyone else I do get frustrated. More often than not it's when playing survivor since I get stomped playing solo queue survivor much more often than when I play killer. If I ever get super tilted, it's almost never because of the match I'm actually in - it's because I've had a miserable series of matches leading up to that moment and I'm already in an 'oh great, what sort of crap is being thrown at me now' mood.
That's one thing Scott gets wrong here. He sees a survivor being frustrated by getting downed in the first 10-20 seconds of the single match he's in. The survivor might have just been tunneled out of the previous 2 games they were in and as far as they can tell this one is just going to be more of the same. The survivor has had a couple of terrible, steamrolled matches and here comes the killer to call them entitled because they aren't all sunshine and lollipops going into this match.
Another thing he gets wrong in this video is talking like survivors have been showered in buffs lately. In reality there were some more pallets added to some maps. The rest of that patch was gutted of any survivor buffs based on killer complaints. This next patch could easily be the same for all we know since right now we have no idea what's actually making it to live, killer complaints could yet again get updates favorable to survivor players dropped. Given how much control killer advocates seem to have over what makes it to live, I don't see how one could argue survivors are the entitled ones.
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I agree.
One big big issue many killer players (especially on stream) get wrong or forget is that these survivors do not only play against them and probably had games before. The only one I actually can think of who almost never looks down on survivors and at least says things like "shame, they seem to have had a bad time here, I am sorry for them, let us hope they have a better time after this" is Otzdarva.
And everyone who plays games should know the feeling of being tilted (and the suboptimal behaviour to not just take a break then).
From my own experience in solo q (only, so tell me about hellish games) I can tell that playing a whole session always gets to a point where you get 3 to 5 really horrendous matches - the reasons vary. But overall they feel like a waste of time spent with an unfun activity.
Maybe it is bad luck, maybe it is MMR, maybe it is certain times of the day/evening…who knows.
But the worst games always come in clusters for some reason.
I myself almost never quit, but I get that some people get frustrated when having bad games in a row.
And let us face it: the most fun for survivors is to survive, because that always feels like a good experience.
The other option - at least for me - is not surviving but at least having the feeling that you did well and others survived because you did well and supported the team through this.
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This is really incoherent rant because it operates entirely on the assumption survivors give because they are entitled and that entitlement is from them being wrong about game balance. Which is putting the bolts before the cart before the horse. It's a circular reasoning fallacy.
Why survivors give up can be pretty varied and inconsistent. Mostly just because what players find fun or frustrating will change greatly from each individual player and can even change from day to day. 1 night you might not mind being the first person in chase and going down early because you were in an unsafe area when the chase began. 1 night you might have had a terrible day at work and this situation is just too frustrating for you to want to continue playing. I'm not saying entitlement doesn't influence a give up, just that it's incorrect to assume it has such a strong influence on giving up to that it can be blamed entirely. Take 100 different players who all gave up because they were first chase and you'll get 100 different reasons why they did so.5 -
I've had 3 people DC in my last 25 killer matches. That's 3 out of 100 players. 3%. So him saying he has them every other match or so seems a bit abnormal.
It's also not "entitlement" to give up. It's feeling worn down and hopeless. I've had a horrible string of survivor matches the last few days. Multiple hard tunnels, multiple toxic killers hitting people on hook, multiple people going second stage on first hook—even two in a single match—and tons of slugging. I was left to die on my first hook one match. That stuff wears you down, and when it seems like your next match is heading that same way, sometimes people just break.
And you don't see killers giving up as much because it's never over for killer until the very end. You can turn a 0k into a 2k-4k in end game. For survivor, some situations are unwinnable. Four gens ain't getting done by two players.
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1. If you are feeling like that, don't queue again or if you do play it out. Don't make the other 4 people in the match worse just because you are upset. Thinking the killer should cater like that, and the other Survivors should just accept it, that is entitlement.
2. Hens literally made a video where he tried that. He made the other two Survivors instantly give up and the other two not touch gens until they were dead. They managed to perform extremely well, even escaping against a meta ghoul player. You absolutely can always come back as Survivor.
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I'm not making anything worse. I don't DC. I just understand the feeling.
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I feel like Scott lives in his own little world. I play killer maybe 50% of the time and I do get a DC here and there, but nowhere near the scale he's talking. I play fair, try not to tunnel unless I'm in a no win situation, and never camp.
I think there's a wider problem here though. I believe the game would be better without certain streamers and Scott being one of them. They have too much influence and not one of them are impartial.
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I'm gonna be honest, I'm really not a fan of YouTube dump and run posts. Wish we had some sort of rule here that if you open a new discussion post, you actually need to start the discussion and not let everyone else do it for you. Summarise the video, share why you agree or disagree, and create some discussion. Otherwise it just feels like clickbait.
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There is such an easy solution if you’re not having fun and it isn’t to keep playing a game that is tilting you.
People who carry over bad matches into their next really need to get a new perspective.2 -
Yeah ive used posts before with his video or the like but I use it a supporting evidence vs just making it the whole arguement lol.
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Problem is that theres survivors that give up when they get found, hit or hooked first. This happens a lot. It has nothing to do with being hopeless and everything to do with entitlement and screwing everyone over because you didn't want to be hooked first.
Not sure which servers you play but in EU / Frankfurt servers i see dcs all the time, and it happens most of the time because someone just didn't want to be found, hooked, hit or the killer wasn't someone they liked.
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What he said about matchmaking is so true. Also ragequitters are the worst to play with besides trolls and inters. I just hate it when there’s a semblance of a challenge or a mistake is committed and then a player just immediately gives up which leads to others also quitting. Do not queue up if you are not willing to play out the match. I’ll get it if its horribly unfair, but in challenging matches, 3 survivors can still very much play the game out and win. Simple really. I’ll admit sometimes i also dont want to play but queue up anyway. If i alt f4 it’s usually in such situations. I should not queue up in this situation.
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That's why I mentioned it as "suboptimal behaviour to not just take a break then".
I generally agree that the best when being tilted would be to step away from a game and take a breath for a sec. But some can't and no one can force them to.
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It sounds like this is a problem with the DC penalties not being harsh enough. If Scott is constantly seeing survivors DC in his matches, clearly the current penalties are not enough of a deterrent.
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I saw that video as well. Now this is Hens and another really good player. They are co-ordinated, using proper callouts and everything. And more importantly, both of them probably has at least 25k hours combined.
This does not apply to the random players you might find in Solo Queue.
Is it possible to win in a 2v1? Yes!. Is it feasible to do as an average player? No!3 -
So, in the interest of genuine conversation, I'm going to take your inquiry at face value and give my honest answer:
what in your opinion do survivors need to feel winable for you
I don't think it's necessarily a "winnable" problem. Killer players tend to focus on the "win", and survivors tend to focus on playing a "well rounded match". This isn't to say that individuals can't, or don't pay both roles, most do.
However, when the survivor role is designed, intentionally, to die more often than escape, the game can't realistically be all about "winning". That will obviously be different for each person, and isn't intended to be "everyone."
Personally, when I play survivor, I want to have a fun match with some hope of escape, at minimum some back and forth with the killer, and a sampling of most things the role offers. I want to be altruistic for my team, do some gens, rescue, heal, and maybe progress the current quest or something.
I can't do that if I get hard tunneled at 5 gens. Which is the meta, unfortunately. It's also been getting worse over the years, and easier as the game has shifted to hitting a 60% (or higher) kill rate for most of the roster.
And despite this being a complaint literally since day 1, more than 9 years now, the community not only does not allow the devs to actually fix it, but we have this narrative that all of it is always petty instead.
There have always been petty people, and they implemented a punishment with dc penalties for that. Doesn't work.
And it didn't work because the larger issue is not because people are petty, it's because they're frustrated with the game, and are either too addicted to leave or don't yet realize they're burned out.
We could punish them harder. Maybe "the beatings will continue until morale improves" will eventually force them to quit.
But we certainly, and clearly, aren't allowed to fix the core problem for many people, which is that they don't get to play the game if found first.
To answer your question directly: what survivors need is what they've always needed in this game: hope. It's the while reason hatch existed in the past. The current game doesn't allow for much hope. You get found first, you *are* dying, and likely the others will as well, so it isn't "for" anything. Hatch is 100% up to the killers choice of "allowing" you a chance to get it.
Game direction has gotten us here, and the devs absolutely not "allowed" to meaningfully address that part.
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i myself am also an 80/20 ratio but its killer to surv and I'm glad you look at more than just the angle you sat at because you see the bigger picture
when I solo Q I play to the best of my ability and my only complaint is my controller sucks because its not hard as either side if you know what you are doing, I unhook, I heal, I take hits/chase, and I die for my team to survive so I'd have to say as someone that mains killer EVERY time I see someone doing that most of the people escape because they help their team but when not a single person does (which is most of the time) everyone dies game after game till that one person just decides "yknow what lets win this, not alone but as a team" that person single handedly makes me lose because its a team game
like R6 siege you gotta work together to win
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THANK YOU. Exactly my thoughts. The whole video is a ranty, yapping amalgamation.
Video Title: Survivor Entitlement is Reaching a Boiling Point (nice hyperbole btw., if there is a "Boiling Point" who defines where that "Boiling Point" is? A Youtuber?)
Video at 10.12: "I would say probably not even half of them are entitled. Most of them are just fine."
Interesting how ‘Survivor Entitlement is Reaching a Boiling Point’ somehow becomes "most of them are just fine" 10 minutes in.
Btw. are there official stats on Survivor Entitlement? Just asking where JS got that data from (I assume he would never make claims based on anecdotal evidence, right?). Thaaaanks!
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Same guy that says that tunneling doesnt exist.
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I get the arguments against Scott here, because DCs aren't as often as I see them either.
However, DCing isn't the only way a survivor can give up and mess up their team. At least the bots do gens.
I've had people DC against my Sadako, yes, but more often than not my TVs turn on and I notice survivors hiding all game, or blocking teammates, or throwing all the pallets, etc etc.
It happens with Sadako, it happens with Pyramid Head running the new Iri addons, it happens when I play wolf-only dracula, and for some reason it even happens with Insidious Unknown of all things. Frankly, it's tiring and I 100% get where Jund is coming from here.0 -
I'm gonna say this as both a player who's been a part of this game since 2018 and has played both sides.
This guy is really missing the mark on why a lot of things he talks about in this video is happening; and it's not just survivor entitlement, it's killer entitlement too. I'd more akin this to a rant on survivors rather than a "critical point of Survivor entitlement" because for it to be "entitlement" that would mean that survivors have Privilege and from what I've experienced ever since I stepped into this wasteland, We don't have nearly as much as the killers do.
This is mainly happening because Killers refuse to give up tunneling, slugging, or camping, and won't let anything that could possibly mitigate that issue or actually help both sides have decent matches come into existence. (Seeing as how we still do not have the anti-tunnel, anti-slug, anti-proxy camp)
He also doesn't take into account the AMOUNT of matches each survivor might have faced before they got to him. That one particular person who gave up on hook, or who gave up after first hit, mid-chase or DC might have had a string of miserable matches before it. It's not uncommon to experience it because I've experienced it, just constant loss after loss after loss isn't a fun way to experience the game, and only builds resentment on one side. (BHVR also releasing incredibly high-power killers with absurd perks is another reason why it happens. Krasue, Springtrap, Ghoul, Dracula, and the Infamous Skull Merchant are all perpetrators.)
Yes, Skull Merchant was nerfed. I'm aware but that doesn't change the irreparable damage it did to DBD overall.
Another portion falls down to the survivors not DCing/giving up against killers they don't like, because that right there is some nonsense. BUT, in the hypothetical that it was "Justified", for survivors to stop DCing/giving up against killers they don't want to face, certain killers would have to be nerfed even further. (But, That's another can of worms I'd rather not open, so for now, Disregard that.)
Both the community of DBD and DBD itself have reached this point where people are constantly giving up, DCING or just not playing correctly, specifically because of these things.
- Constant high-power killers being released (Lich, Dracula, Ghoul, Krasue, Skull Merchant)/Killers getting overbuffed (Clown)
- Constant Survivor Perk Nerfs, which result in survivors being unable to survive
- No change in SoloQ / additional things that could help put the game/community in a state of better balance.
If any of these were to change in favor of actually making the game less miserable, there would be an immense increase in both quality and willingness to play matches; but until this is reached, it will continue to spiral down hill.3 -
And I'm sure they've encountered situations like that more than once in their 25k hours. Playing out losing matches is a skill in competition in general, and if you shield yourself from it, you never improve at it. There can even be strategic advantages to giving your opponent the upper hand, if the result makes them easier to predict and or counter. Thats the danger of focusing solely on outcome bias, if you only see the ending you miss everything that was gained and lost along the journey.
Every time you are doomed to fail, the more you fight the more you improve, and the better your chances get. Giving up just assures you never rise above.
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Noble, but for those that disconnect I'm sure its more of "giving up saves me wasted time and allows me to accelerate the dopamine hits"
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Unfortunately you're right, and thats sadly something that can never be balanced around. When attempting to address behaviors from a playerbase, there will always be those who refuse to be sated by anything less than their desired outcome, just like there will always be those who refuse to adapt when given more healthy alternatives. It's up to those people to change themselves rather than drag the game down with them. Thats why I focus on making the best of the bad rather than take my ball and go home.
Granted, thats the point of things like the emblem system, but our ever-so-well-loved MMR system fuels these mindsets rather than help discourage them.
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They should just add voice chat, or a command wheel like the battlefield games have. That would really be enough to "bridged" the gap between SWF and solo players. Instead of them trying to do all this extra stuff for survivors. Regardless all they will do is make stuff easier for SWF coordinated players. And they should remove their MMR system for anyone with over 200 hours. That way only truly new players will never play vs experienced players, and allow them to get better at the game. And they should stop focusing on trying to balance every single thing, like focus on making the game FUN. Ain't no one playing video games to have a "fair" experience, what keeps people playing is having FUN! Everyone here always wants something nerfed. It was the same thing since I stopped playing the 1v4 3 years ago. This game is not going to ever be fully 100% balanced. The 4 will always have the upper hand, people just need to accept that fact.
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Again, you don't know what happened in their previous matches. Even though I can't recall ever DCing as survivor, I got fustrated enough the other day to nearly do so twice.
And why do people always assume they know why people DCed? I've been playing as Dredge with the add-on that starts the match in Nightfall. Are they DCing because they don't like Dredge? Or maybe they have a visual impairment and Njghtfall is a problem. Or maybe they just had an internet issue, or a life one. I've been in parties where members have been accidentally disconnected. The killer isnt going to know that it was just an error, but they'll probably make some assumption.
And most of the time that I see people DCing it's when they're getting hard tunneled and they're about to die.
I've played on more than one server. This guy sounds North American. I don't see all these DCs on those servers.
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Scott slop.
I commented on main video itself but killers will do exact same thing on occasions, oh first chase went a bit too long? Im dcing or im just gonna stand at exit gates or go friendly because im done with this match.
The reason why surviours get ######### for doing it is because if a killer dc or gives up match is just over or you just bumrush gens.
If a surviour gives up they are just leaving everyone else with a bot to endure the rest of the match.
Agree with him most of the time but this video is just slop.
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legit dbd mobile was able to add comms and even see team perks when loading in, main game struggling to do what a mobile port could.
Post edited by random1543 on1 -
I think the best thing DBD can ever do in regards to quitters is implement a low-priority queue. Send ragequitters and other unwanteds into low priority so they can play with each other. It worked wonders for Dota and it'll work wonders here, I guarantee it.
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I had a feeling this would get posted after I watched it and knew I was going to be late replying to it because of a busy Friday, but here goes:
It has a bad premise, especially because he talks about times he was okay with survivors DCing. It makes it sound like 'I as a Content Creator thought it was okay, but now that my Content Creator issues have been fixed, everyone else is just entitled."
Running through some things
Talking about dangling the carrot - he is aware the last PTB didn't actually go through, right? People are talking about survivors getting what they want like the last PTB wasn't yanked out after primarily killer complaints. I think we're seeing a lot of people have regret about the 9.2 PTB because they thought they could stop anything from happening. BHVR was going to give the survivors something, they tried a complex give things to both sides, and when that was shot down they went for the simple approach.
And we still have no idea what is actually going to happen.
More likely to see - watch SWF streams, or just really good loopers, and you'll see lots of rage quitting from killers.
Pallet density - its funny, survivors ask for anti-tunnel, BHVR gives them more pallets, and then people wonder why they aren't happy. Well, it wasn't what they asked for. It'd be like when killers complain about certain killers being not strong enough, if survivors responded with 'you just got Ghoul, be happy'. That has nothing to do with the person's original complaint.
MMR - the system has problems, but his argument is inaccurate.
If you lose, and lose, and lose - I like how this always seems to just apply to killers. Survivors literally are designed to lose more frequently, but somehow this doesn't result in them always running the sweatiest things or forming 4 person SWFs. People keep claiming this shift to all S tier killers is going to happen, but it doesn't.
Killers haven't got anything, killer rates have gone down - if you're not colorblind, sure, but killers are getting one of the most heavily requested changes with the scratch marks. It might not effect you the specific player, but in terms of an overall buffs to everyone who plays killer it is pretty substantial.
So i just beg you before you downvote me, take your time and write an answer to my question, "what in your opinion do survivors need to feel winable for you"@AmpersandUnderscore did a good job answering this, the issue isn't winnable. It's why many survivors have loved the abandon option, they accepted the match isn't going to be in their favor, they just want losing to not be so incredibly boring. Survivors certainly have balance complaints, but their primary argument has been about gameplay that has just been extremely bad.
I've had 3 people DC in my last 25 killer matches. That's 3 out of 100 players. 3%. So him saying he has them every other match or so seems a bit abnormal.At a rate of 3%, its quite possible that 1 or maybe even 2 of those was a just an internet problem or something else outside of the game.
But some of that is either just
1: Bad survivor play, which is an issue in all games, but as an asym this hits one side more than the other.
2: Playing for hatch, which despite many community complaints, is still a position backed and supported by BHVR.
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I went and looked through my notes for my last 90 matches, just to expand on this, and had 19 DCs out of 90 matches, 350 opponenets. That brings it up to 5%. Still a pretty small number, especially with this people-DC-every-match tale that gets told around here a lot.
I also have a KR of about 85% for the month so it's not like I'm doing terrible and that's why no one DCed. Many of these were hopeless matches and 4Ks at 5gens. Yet the rate is still pretty low.
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Hey someone who wants to talk and is open to a discussion, I am honored.
I understand the problem and the feeling that beeing hard tunneld sucks and it shouldn´t be possible. But I think that many people are "like Scott in the video" to fast in throwing the towel and the saying "it´s every game the same". I often heard the narrative: "OMG the Killer found me I am dead" by a friend of mine while he stood there under hook waiting for the Killer to come back, get downed and said "proudly" "See the killer tunnels me out". No he didn´t you just stand afk under the hook or ran to the Killer.
I had an disscussion two months ago here in the forums. That all Killers do is to tunnel and it should be possible to abbandon the game if you get found first. My question was simpe and is still unanswerd. "How do you know that the Killer will tunnel you if you haven´t been hooked once?" Thats just self fullfilling.
What I want to say is: Not every game is over just because you got first as not every match is over when all gens pop at 2 hooks. Many people would be suprised what they are missing out by just giving up with the excuse "Yeah it will always happen because I know it better".
I am always open to discuss (an ability which it seems nealry no one is capable of in modern times)
From time to time i compare DBD with the 1v3 Mini Games in Mario Party. Ofcourse the 1 has the bigger hammer and can deal more damage but the 3 have many more attempts to hit the 1 with their tiny hammers. If you would compare them in a 1v1 ofcourse the Killer will win it is designed that way thats the single reason why not every chase can be a 5 gen chase. Even 1 full gen chase time is huge. Imagine for every hook state you will get a full gen. Game would be over before the sixth hook is reached.
Communicatiion is key I agree there with you but communication can be toxic and annoying as hell. Now our communication is limited to waving and pointing. Or how most of the community uses it butt slap and shame pointing.
From time to time I thought about a emote wheel could be great but to this day I still hear the Questionmark ping from league of legends and I swear to god… not a single one of these where meant to say "enemy is missing" You shouldn´t be able to annoy your teammates with emotes and try to trigger them to tilt. Imagine sitting on a gen and trying to listen if Myers is breathing around the corner while permanent a Killer is missing signal is in your ears. Maybe you could make it that some actions allow you to ping an emote one time. Like you unhook and you get the "run away or I heal you" emote or that you get the option after 15 second of chase to ping "Killer on me or Killer leaving"
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I’m subbed to him but this video was lame
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self fulfilling profecies, Mario party, and emote wheels
somehow you made all of those make sense and agreeable
i tip my hat to you
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Sometimes it is refreshing to talk to someone who tries to give arguments for their opinion than just trying to provoke us vs them or blaming the devs right^^
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Personally, I don’t think the issue is fairness. The devs have stated clearly that the two sides aren’t meant to have equal success rates. One side is intentionally designed to lose more, the other to win more. So “fairness” doesn’t even make sense as a goal when the game itself isn’t built to be fair.
Which leaves a problem/question of my own that I feel is really important when talking about survivor balance: how do you make a role that loses more by design still worth choosing? The only answer is in how that losing happens, it has to still be fun to lose. If you expect people to play the role with the lower win rate, then losing has to feel active, not passive. Survivors need to at least feel like they’re playing the game, not being dragged through it. (And yes, SWF helps make the survivor role appealing too, because if you removed it entirely, there would not be very good incentive to ever pick survivor over killer)
Historically, survivor frustration has always orbited the same three things, slugging, tunneling, and camping. Why? Because all three strip away options.
So if the devs want survivor to feel worth it, even with a higher chance of defeat, survivors need agency. They need to feel like their choices matter. As long as they get to stay active, make decisions, and actually play, the role can absorb the loss rate.
And yes, restricting those playstyles is controversial. It affects killer agency, it limits killer decisions, and almost strong-arms them into playing a certain way. But that’s literally the same problem survivor players are trying to address, because those playstyles already do limit survivor agency, limits survivor decisions, and strong-arms them into playing a certain way. Both sides care about agency. They’re just arguing over who should lose more of it.Win more with less agency.
Win more with full agency.
Lose more with agency.
Lose more with none.
Only two of those are remotely healthy for a role people have to voluntarily choose. And that’s why this debate keeps coming back no matter how often we pretend it’s settled.
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