Tunneling & Slugging Update is basically worthless!

Whole I'm not necessarily opposed to a cap on things like haste or overall speed increases and decreases, that's not what I said at all, but it's it what I responded to.

It also conveniently ignores all of the actual limitations they have added such as pretty and item nerfs as well as actual increases to gen times.

Typical moving the goal post, and just now evidence that it will never be enough for some people until kill rates are 100%. It sure wasn't enough when gens could be stalled for an hour, so why would now be any different?

Fast completion speed has always been the reason that killers adapt "tunneling and slugging" into their gameplay

Gen speed is the default, "go to" complaint when no one has decided a specific perk, map, or item is the particular flavor of the month.

We know, for a fact, that gen speeds are just an excuse people use, because we have a full years with of live game data that says otherwise.

A year of gen kick, cobruption, Overbrine, and 3 genning allowed killers an entire year of gens taking as long as the killer chose, up to an hour.

We didn't see anyone saying "wow, gens are so slow. I don't have to tunnel anymore!".

What we did see, in huge numbers, was people saying "I have more time to tunnel, and can win games far easier now, so I'm going to tunnel more because I like winning".

Gen speeds are not the actual cause of tunneling in general, as a meta. Demonstrably, provably. With live game data. But that doesn't fit the narrative you want, so you can't admit that.

They've literally made it so we can't slow down gens like we used to. We've completely lost the ability to damage gens after enough damages now. I can't just hold the gift of a strong three gen usually given to me by the survivors.

Can you acknowledge that if I can only kick a generator so many times to prevent progress I have to resort to something else to show down progress?

This is kind of emblematic...

BHVR chose to implement the gen-kick limit at 8 instances. The reason they did so is because, according to their statistics, this was far above the average number of kicks per gen.

You can still stall out a 3-gen effectively and buy yourself a lot of time. You just can't lock it down for a full 60 minutes anymore.

But the idea that this change could hypothetically disadvantage you is apparently enough to put you on tunnelling. This goes against the argument of necessity.

Mb i was genuinlty thinking off top of head but some of your points are not buffs

- hook timer i missed EDIT: hook timers where 2024 after looking it up so not this year)

- Franklins ive also missed

- the abandon feature is not a survivor buff, its a QOL yes but its not a buff that effects gameplay as the match is lost when its active.

- Ok so pallet density is still in small number of maps, wouldn't exactly call that a buff in majority of matches but i will grant that as overlooked

- go net prevention is not a survivor buff as those who want to leave will sandbag or afk regardless, and my point in adding it to surviour nerf is that why isn't there a killer equivalent when they decide to give up and stand at gate? its the double standard

- anti camp is not going through, the only benefit survivors get from it is seeing the anti camp meter granted it is a buff range is being reverted we got longer endurance but best anti tunnel perk was nerfed so its more a trade.

- shoulder to burden was 2024 or would of have more of a list,

- I tried to avoid mentioning perk pairing and stick to just perks in general or buffs or nerfs or else the list would just go on and on for both sides.

so I missed two - three valid points thanks for pointing it out

Edit: yeah decided to complain about medkit nerfs early, seems to work out when killers do it on here cough cough vog vials

I wasn't able to find the old list. Though as I went looking through old threads I realized how frequently this concept has been discussed again and again over the years: also, how much I like to make lists. Anyway, it did basically give me the same ideas:

3: 4v1 - Usually being outnumbered means a huge disadvantage. There is a huge desire to say 'I beat 4 people!', so the backlash to 'actually, you had the easier side' is pretty huge. We see this in the '16 v 4' perk arguments as if those things are at all comparable.

4: Standards - People's view of the game and what the killer should expect have been wildly thrown out of whack. When people talk about the game being killer sides you'll get responses like 'oh, show me winning 20 games with a row with Trapper at high MMR!'. Except that just shows how absurd the standard has become because people are basing the 'killer is harder' on a standard heavily in their favor.

5: Burden shifting - We see some of this in the thread, basically saying all of the pressure should be on survivors. An example of this is Sadako with her high kill rate, people will point out, correctly, that this will change as survivors get better. What never gets discussed is what exactly has the new or low MMR Sadako shown to earn that KR? There's just a constant focus on what the survivors COULD do, without discussing what the Killer HASN'T had to do.

This is a possible way the game could be designed, but you're advocating that the Killer should have a heavy dose of hand holding, and that goes back to my earlier point of no one wanting to win a game that is tilted in their favor.

6: Misunderstanding variability - A single trial is not a huge sample size. If a survivors wins a bunch of 50/50s that looks like they are high skill and unbeatable, but it could easily be ascribed to the survivor just winning coin flips (or even outside 50/50s larger percentages).To take the coin flips, 1 out 8 games survivors will win 4 coin flips in a row and look amazing, 1 out of 8 games the killer will win 4 coin flips in a row and the survivors will look awful. But that's not showing the skill, that's just how probability works over many games.

7: No idea what they missed - If a killer runs by a survivor waiting with a flashlight, but doesn't see them, how would they ever know? Or what if the killer goes for a tunnel and gets gen rushed, they have no idea if they could have stopped it via spreading pressure. This is how when certain forum members post their videos it gets a lot 'those are low MMR survivors, mine are much harder'. But its impossible to know what could have been missed, or how seemingly minor tactical changes could have yielded large changes, and it causes lots of anger when others post matches being able to handle things.

8: Always play the same way - Many players employ the same tactics every game (i.e. tunnel). Thus it seems confusing as why survivors don't just run the counter to that strategy. Except, survivors have to predict multiple possible playstyles, but from the killer perspective they're wondering why survivors aren't just taking the 'strongest' builds.

This can be seen with how you have killers arguing the game is clearly survivor sided, while wildly disagreeing on what the broken build is (i.e. anti-tunnel, healing, gen rushing). An argument about what is broken on the survivor side frequently gives an indication to how the killer probably players (though there are objectively overpowered things on the survivor side just as there are on killer).

9: One sided framing - Trapper vs sweaty 4 person SWF is the common argument. Sure, unfair. So is a soloq without items hitting a sweaty Nurse, but that gets ignored.

Somehow killers have been able to maximize the 'if this goes through, only S tier killers will be played', while survivors have never managed 'if this goes through survivors will only run Iri addons and always play in a SWF', though both are equally possible (by which I mean basically will never happen).

10: Perfect - So in a hypothetical world, if the survivors played perfectly, they'd win. That's because many elements of the game are perfectly predictable. If you were a computer, when the killer begins to approach you'd know exactly whether or not which vaults/pallets you could make it to because the movement rates are predictable.

Except perfection is a horrible metric. I like to compare it to chess. There are people who are professional chess players (compared to what we call 'pros' in DbD) and do it their whole lives, there are many books written on chess strategy, and chess doesn't have the randomness of a game like DbD. Except, its been a long time since the world's best chess player could beat a computer (and we keep making better chess playing computers). Well, because people, even at the most extremes of human ability, always make mistakes. But some killers have latched onto this impossible reality as the standard for how we should discuss the game.

Doesn't change it. You can run that scenario 8 times with regression, and you only lose regression after that, not the ability to defend the gen. If you do the exact same thing the exact same way and get defeated the exact same way eight times, is it really reasonable to demand to be able to enforce an infinite stalemate?

The survivors have to get it right 8+ times. The killer only needs to get it right once.

No single player can give a killer a three gen, it either spawned in that way and the killer chose to camp it from the get go or its a team effort that you are blaming on the one person that can't defend themself, since they're not in your voice call. Either you and your friends helped do some of the gens leading to the three gen or this Steve was the only person working on generators.

I have seen three gens spawn in that the huntress could hold a hatchet from the center of and hit anyone working on any of the three generators or walk over to any of the three within 5 seconds. She camped it from the start of the match. Why should the killer be allowed to hold something like that indefinitely? She won, of course, there was no way to break that without comp level coordination. Guess I get to lose for the mistake of playing DBD in the first place.

A three gen can already be used by the killer to stage a comeback, I've done it and I bet you have as well. A limit needs to be placed on these things, otherwise survivors have no chance of, you know, surviving.

what exactly has the new or low MMR Sadako shown to earn that KR? There's just a constant focus on what the survivors COULD do, without discussing what the Killer HASN'T had to do.

It is funny how this is. Personally, when I hop on a killer for the first time, it's not uncommon for me to breeze through 20 wins in a row. That's about when the shift to better opponenets happens, and I end up with survivors who understand the killer far better than I do. So there's this gap in my learning where I now have to sweat and learn at the same time. It's easy to blame the killer's kit but it's really the erratic matchmaking and forced expectations.

This is a possible way the game could be designed, but you're advocating that the Killer should have a heavy dose of hand holding, and that goes back to my earlier point of no one wanting to win a game that is tilted in their favor.

I kinda think it's the other way around, that people can't bear to loose a match that's tilted in their favor. Killers are supposed to get kills and are designed to win more. So if you loose, it hits even harder, because you were already boosted from the get-go. On the flipside, as survivor, when I die to a killer I can see is clearly a bad player but perks, ping, bloodlust, and RNG did half the work, I resign myself to "well I'm designed to loose." In that way, I find survivor to be the sad role, and killer to be the stressful one.

I think that's where this "killer anxiety" silliness comes from. They're the main character and the focus is on them, and they're basically expected to win, so losing hits some too hard.

This is how when certain forum members post their videos it gets a lot 'those are low MMR survivors, mine are much harder'.

I hate how killer players say this, and how they all assume they themsleves are upper MMR and others are lower. You're only making each other feel inadequate, so the situation gets worse. There's also only so many people in upper MMR. You're not all there.

An argument about what is broken on the survivor side frequently gives an indication to how the killer probably players

I also feel this way. Who is telling people to bring Unbreakable, Soul Guard, or Conviction if they're not the problem thise perks address?

'if this goes through, only S tier killers will be played'

I'm always amazed hw much people say this. Does it really convince anyone? Beause you can just play for yourself and see it's not the case. I get wide variety in my matches. Even had a Twins the other day.

So in a hypothetical world, if the survivors played perfectly, they'd win.

I don't understand why this expectation is solely on survivors. I have matches where the survivors are great and I'm whiffing, getting whacked by pallets, getting juiced by people clipping into the walls perfectly, and just looking like an overall fool—then I win. Why did I not only have to play perfect againt good players, but I didn't even have to play well?

There a few take aways from this whole thing. Yes survivors are adaptable and the fact that they have put massive effort into the SM with no positive results while neglecting some killers that need an overhaul. However you can’t babies into a game where there is massive tunneling and camping and expect them to “get good” or learn how to loop.

Without curving tunneling and camping you ultimately shut out the game to new players. Most commenting started at a time when the game was in decent state and learned some methods as they progressed. This is without a doubt backed up by numbers and by the FNAF chapter. BHVR had a staggering 120,000 players then where did they all go? Steam charts show they have hemorrhaged players since . Minor upticks during event months but all in all most of those players left. This doesn’t count into the effect of console players either. But there is your proof they can not keep new players or even ones that come back and dip their toe in. The game itself needs a face lift.

The number one reason players uninstall is because of tunneling and camping. Given most killers have to wait forever for a match tells you there are more killers than survivors. And they can’t blame prestige levels anymore. Yet the devs are ignoring the main face why players quit. Now if you are on business you try and fix the what needs to be fixed in order to attract new players and keep them.

just because tunneling and slugging are not happen in a certain region does not mean it doesn’t exist. Now Asian servers it has been said time and time again there is no toxic game play that the killers actually try. Just because you are seeing something doesn’t mean it isn’t a problem. It can be strong in certain areas but can be detrimental to other areas.

Devs need to stop listening to streamers point blank. Although some may thinks they don’t they do. If you ever watch OTZ he will always criticize a survivor perk and give examples in a non pressure game. This was proven the BTL and the devs literally took what he said word for word and used it in order to nerf it. Same thing with the med kits and boon nerf then they quietly restored and buffed med kits. Point is these streamers would be nowhere without BHVR, who cares if they say they will leave let them someone will take their place. Their views will drop and they will go back. Also they have fans who will follow them and scream to support them.

Here is the thing they can’t keep new players and that’s a problem. Yes their cashcow is cosmetics and some will continue to purchase but even I have seen a decline in them. There is no chase anymore no one does gens because they assume every killer will tunnel, camp, and slug. Unless you are in an SWF your odds are terrible and that’s where new players start.

Solutions teleporting hooks simple as that. They do it 2v8 and without the constant aura reading most killers calm down on it. Basket unbreakable when all players are down. If you go 30 seconds after recovery you have the option to leave. Simple yet effective. If all 4 survivors leave killer looses a rank this ensures a hook state and punishing. I know that doesn’t allow for sabos but it’s a price to pay to play the game.

"It's all quite draining"

I literally don't have the mental energy to care anymore. It's true what you said, about reading older posts and it's just everyone repeatedly arguing about the same things. I've removed any and all expectations for this game, because expectations just lead to disappointment. As long as killer is still fun for me, I'm here. It's my only saving grace because I hate playing survivor now.