People focus too much on low tiers
People focus way to much on the low tiers that should be rightfully buffed, leading to no changes being able to be made to the game due to that argument being used
"oh no we cant have disincentives against tunneling it'll hurt low tiers"
"we need incentives for not tunneling because of low tiers"
"the pallet density has ruined low teir killers"
Leading to everything being reverted and nothing being done.
Yes the low tiers need buff, yes the changes hurt them more but these are not the majority of killers that survivors are versing.
At least for me majority of killers i verse are playing Ghoul, Blight, Vecna Dracula and Myers due to his rework. not exactly the lowest killers on the totem pole and even before the pallet density change was even more common to just get multiple ghouls in a row.
This creates a disjointed way people think on changing the game.
"no these changes suck I cant play the game anymore" - says a ghostface enjoyer
"these changes barely effect anything killers can still tunnel" - says survivor that's versed slow down top tiers over and over last few matches
We need to be able to acknowledge the low tiers are needing buffs but not focusing whole game changes around them as they are not the majority of what survivors have to face, they need buffs but survivors also need buffs to counter the top tiers as that is the experience for the majority of people playing survivor.
Or you know we can nerf killers like ghoul and blight but have no hope that will be done.
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OR we can start nerfing stuff on the survivor side when low tiers are in play. You know maybe an earning requirement for exhaustion, gen progression being disabled etc. Because you don't really NEED multiple uses of exhaustion perks vs low tiers or even faster gens to begin with.
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So we can nerf top tiers? or is this just a "oh no think of the low tiers" while ignoring the elephant in the room ( Top Tiers)
Because nerfing exhaustion and gens disabling against S tiers would be stupid unless you nerf them.1 -
Top tiers right now are unironically a necessary evil. Until survivors receive nerfs there NEEDS to be top tiers in their current states. And no this isn't a "1% of the playerbase" type take its more of a "Survivors can do extremely well against most of the roster if they have a functioning brain" type take.
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They cant with the current communication the game offers (discord don't count) , if they had a comm wheel with pre made message like mobile had I would agree but until survivors receive that buff ( which i don't think devs will add) top tiers need to be nerfed
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So how high are the KR's supposed to go?
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There's over 40 killers in the game. It would be a shame if we continue to make it unattractive to play anything besides the top 5 killers.
Ultimately there's a lot of work BHVR needs to do if they want to make tunneling and slugging not worthwhile and frankly I just don't see BHVR willing to put in that work because it would mean nerfing top tier killers, nerfing survivor's ability to quickly heal and quickly complete gens, and granting killers strong incentives to spread out hooks.2 -
If you look on nightlight right now the best kill rate is legit 60% and held by Freddy lol. Some killers are dropping nearly to the 40% mark. And that just shows that once you take out all the survivor that are bad in the normal queue. This game is WAY worse than you originally think.
Kill rates are NOT a one all concrete indication of the balance for the game and never was. It's a sign yes but just that a sign. This is why I laugh at the indication "you can easily get a 70% KR on ghost face" because that only implies you go against bot level of skill in your games. It's the whole reason I use "against good/competent survivors" since THATS what we should be balancing around as those are what indicate (or at least more accurately indicate) a killer being weak or strong even IF soloq.-1 -
So top tiers get nerfed then what. Even more of the roster becomes miserable to play as against competent survivors. You can get 4ks yes but is it fun? No because as most of the roster you only ever get to do well when survivors allow for it by making mistakes rather than you actually outplaying them.
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Nightlight data is trash and has been for a while. It also currently shows The Game as being the fifth most deadly map or fourth most deadly since one of the maps shown isn't actually available outside of custom matches (badham 3, another great example of how bad the data here is). Are you going to agree with it that The Game is a killer sided map?
https://nightlight.gg/maps/viewer?sort=kill&shown=pick%7Ckill%7Cdist&start_days=28
On the actual topic at hand, the highest tier and lowest tier killers need the most focus, they need the most balancing. One of the best things we can do to nerf the high tiers is to nerf tunneling. If you get tunneled out by a trapper that is a skill issue on the survivor, if you can't tunnel out someone as blight/nurse, that is a skill issue on the killer. The argument that we need to keep tunneling for the sake of low tier killers makes no sense to me.1 -
In the perfect world I think every killer should hover around the same place in terms of power level/ potential, If survivors where given proper communications such as comm wheel and seeing others perks as you load into a match we could look at things at slower base gen speed and speeding up killer interactions, toolbox adjustments of worst add ons, but without all the killers being around the same level giving blanket nerfs too survivor just makes them more miserable against top tiers.
I do understand its harder for killers like ghost face but that should lead to him getting individual buffs, not working around the lowest killers because its harder for them in there current state.0 -
Okay let's apply the same line of thinking along the inverse.
Yeah maybe buffing all of the low tier killers will hurt solo queue without any other changes, but who cares. Most killers aren't facing a 4 team made up entirely of solo queue, there's at least some level of swf in terms of duo, trio, or quad. Based on that the calls to help solo queue survivor are reasonable but honestly we should just buff the low tier killers and THEN buff solo queue to match. I'm assuming that sounds like a terrible idea though, right?0 -
Literally trapper is only useable because of tunneling and camping lol. Any decent survivor will just follow you around popping all your traps to force you to focus your attention on them or else once they get unhooked they do the same routine. These killers literally ARE only playable because of tunneling and severe survivor mistakes which genuinely shouldn't happen at the rate they do.
I would also trust NightLights stats WAY more than BHVRs stats any day. You never know what BHVR wants to skew with their stats while nightlight is submitted via players. Also about Gideons. Are we forgetting that its STILL boosted with a couple other maps meaning the other maps that aren't boosted would naturally have more volatile stats?
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100% agree with the point "if you get tunneled by trapper its a skill issue but if its blight or nurse its a killer skill issue.
I just wish we could address S tiers and survivors complaints without having to soften it for low tiers, I saw it so much in the anti tunneling thread1 -
doing it the way I wanted killers will still have potential, they just wont have top tier levels of potential such as blight and ghoul. They may have to adjust standards, but you will still be able to win the majority of matches if you play good and have a good build.
Doing it that way solo q survivors will still have to suffer under top tiers swamping matches and survivors wont be able to just change the killer they are playing because survivors are one thing with multiple skins0 -
Severe survivor mistakes sound like a skill issue to me. Note that I also expect gens to be slowed down or some other form of compensation to be given to killers alongside this, it would be a net boon for lower tier killers that have a harder time tunneling good survivors out.
Got it, The Game, Lery's (6th), and Garden of Joy (12th) are now killer sided maps, you heard it here first folks, lets chat about how we can buff these maps for survivors /s. The map data and kill rate data come from the same data set, any claim of volatility applies to both.
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Ah yes, the infamously unreliable NightLight. NightLight has consistently underreported KR's. It's also such a tiny sample size that it's statistically irrelevant.
I agree, KR isn't an end-all-be-all solution. Generally speaking though, 60% is the Devs target (which I think is a bad choice, but whatever) and Killers are either hitting or exceedingly that. Why would we buff that? What is your ideal KR? 70%? 75%? At what point do we stop and say, "Hey, this might be too much." Is it only when you are satisfied?
Ah yes, because I think it's possible to get 70% KR with GF, that means I only play against trash players. Of course. It couldn't be that I'm actually decent with him, or that maybe I play in a way that you don't. No, that's inconceivable.
I said 70% because I subtracted 20% from my own KR to make it accessible to the average player.
I'm also glad to hear you think Solo Q can go ######### themselves. "Who cares if Solo Q has a 2% Escape Rate, I'm finally fulfilling the ego feedback loop I always wanted, now I don't have to try against good/competent (probably not) players either!"
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You can slowdown gens all you want but with current maps. That doesnt do much for most of the rost especially when exhaustion perks are at play.
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If you are OK with me knowing which killer I am going into a match against I would be OK having an alternate perk to replace my exhaustion perk, or even a full alternate loadout when going against lower tier killers. Since that is never going to happen and those perks are necessary when going against the high tier killers we are going to have to do something else.
I would be in favor of altering gen speeds and map setups based on which killer is being faced, but I also suspect this will never happen and again would result in me having an idea of which killer I am facing when I load in.
In either case you still need to address tunneling, otherwise gen speeds still need to be fast enough to offset the possibility of the survivors being in an early 3v1. Gen speeds must be balanced against the strongest thing the killer can do, so long as tunneling exists, gen speeds must be fast, they go hand in hand.
A similar thing applies to gen slowdown perks, so long as these perks exist gen speeds must be balanced against the possibility of the killer bringing in a full gen slowdown build. The only solution is to delete from the game ever perk and item that effects gen speeds on both sides and then adjust gen speeds as needed.
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That's because over 80% of killer rosters are low tiers.
How much time do they need to buff these killers? 2 years? 3 years? 5 years? Just so you know Skullmerchant is still not getting her rework ready.
People aren't gonna wait that long. Either they change to play S-tier killers, or just uninstall the game.
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Oh I love such arguments and I am know that I get downvoted for showing the double standards.
If the desired KR is 60% and some Killers have more than that and others have less than that it means we are kinda at the sweet spot for BHVR.
The Problem is this 60% KR considers Slugging, Camping and Tunneling as normal part of the game. Many Survivors claim that these cheap tactics is hand holding Killers. So when they get removed the KR will drop drasticly, because now the easy wins fall away.
So we buff Killers in a way how they can shorten chases to start them with different Survivors? More Killers like Ghoul and Krasue? Which are pretty unfair for Survivors but have fast chases.
I said it in many posts. This game is developing a way which will be more hated than tunneling and slugging. Because If you think about it and be honest with yourself. If Krasue or Wraith must be played for 12 hooks no tunneling and no slugging, than we know which Killer could archive the 60% KR and that is not by Skill but to get easier hits.
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Hard to say as aiming for kill rates to balance is not how you balance things. There's a reason why other games balance usually around some characters having abnormally high win rates which if what you're saying is true… it's why I laugh at the notion you can easily get a 70% kill rate on ghost face.
It further reinforced my thought that you go against actual gutter tier skill of player if you actually have a 90% kill rate on ghost face. Please play against survivors that actually have a brain for 10 games and come back to me with your average kill rate because 90% is SUPER abnormally high for such a limited kit as ghost face. Any experienced player in any sort of game will tell you a 90% kill rate on a HARD limited character is only achievable by going against the lowest of the lows. But since you have a 90% kill rate on ghost face he clearly needs nerfs right?
I never said anything about soloq going to suffer. I said even if soloq some killers can still be extremely weak or strong. Which still holds true. I've seen soloq games against good blights that still resulted in someone escaping even if the blight played efficiently. So the real issue of soloq is not even kill rates or anything its just lack of comms.-1 -
I'm above average as a player, probably washed by now, so I figured that accounts for my 86% average KR.
The odds of me never playing against good Survivors and maintaining such a high KR is approximately zero. I've done the same thing with other Killers. Legion, Nemesis, etc etc
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