Why are people acting like killers wanted what's happened?
All I [at least] wanted was to have a similar pallet density as when Springtrap released, because most maps were fine when it came to pallet count. I also made clear that decimated borgo and Haddonfield needed more pallets and their buffed form wasn't the worst in the world. The thing we have now is something nobody advocated for, its not an example of "killer crybabies" its an example of BHVR hearing about an issue that could be fixed with a dinky lil hammer and choosing a sledgehammer. I only ever heard people say to revert the pallet changes, not skull merchant pallets.
Every time BHVR makes a mistake the community pounces on the "other side" when there is no other side, pretending there is just obfuscates BHVR's incompetence. It's a video game, these roles shouldn't be your entire identity.
Who wants to play on a map full of 50/50's? Survivors don't, they have less ability to actually survive longer chases. Most Killers I know and know of wouldn't want this either, we actually like challenges, we want to have to try in chase because that's where ALL the fun comes from. That's the point of this game. It's not just survivors who'll hate this and they shouldn't and won't be the only ones up in arms about it.
BHVR, fix it and stop letting your community take the blame for YOUR actions. And stop pretending you "hear us", you don't and clearly never will.
Comments
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This isn't a fault of killer mains; it lands solely on whoever has the final say. Yes, we all complain, but nobody asked for this BS.
I think some one needs to own up to this mess..
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Must have been survivor mains brigading every single one of these polls when they asked for feedback? Seems they did exactly what killer players wanted. Par for the course for this year.
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the survivor golden children that the devs love so much will never be able to understand anything that doesnt benefit them.
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ikr we golden children got so much this year. 3 new S tier killers in the last year, a garbage new survivor item that got double nerfed to uselessness within 2 weeks, styptic dead, all anti-tunnel/camp/slug changes promised all year scrapped. Truly survivors are catered to. 😐️
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saying something favours survivors isn't the same as 'I want every pallet to be chucky height' and you know it. You have to be the most obvious bait I've ever seen.
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Really? Because most of what I saw the last month was how the poor perkless Trapper players were getting bullied on account of maps finally not being barren resource wastelands.
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because like the nerfed current version BHVR went overkill and added so many pallets that M1 killers suffered heavily while S-Tiers didn't care. Like I said, I wanted it reverted to the same level as the FNAF chapter in all maps except Haddonfield and Borgo. Did you even read my original post?
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"Mass movements can rise and spread without belief in a God, but never without a belief in a devil". - Eric Hoffer
Most of the content creators for DBD main killer and a lot of social media are streamer killer mains engaging in a toxic echo chamber where complain all day that every survivor is bad and toxic. Not all streamers of course but enough to be a noticeable problem. It's easy to blame them both because of their influence as content creators but also the toxicity they spew on a daily basis.
But the change probably had nothing to do with them.
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That would be better than this but doesn't address the accelerating powercreep of new S tier killers along with Blight. If maps have to be balanced around perkless Trapper we need to have a serious discussion about nerfing the higher tier killers. 2k winstreaks shouldn't be possible for either side in a pvp game.
I read your post and wasn't asserting what your opinion was, but what massively overexaggerated feedback the devs received.
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Why are you fighting me then. WE AGREE. I want nurse, blight and ghoul nerfed, I want A-Tier to be the standard. As I said, I haven't seen anyone asking for the pallets to receive the skull merchant treatment, they all wanted reverts, just like me. I agree on the 2k winstreak thing too. All this while being a killer main. I didn't have any say in this, if I did elusive would still exist, 1v4 would have the ability to alternate automatically between killer and survivor. And trust me, most killers would agree that killing the need to mindgame wasn't on their wishlist.
BHVR is the one dumbing down this game not killer mains, not even the hedge cases who would advocate for something like this had anything to do with this. BHVR made the call, they are the ones to call out.
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I'm not fighting your opinions about game balance. I agree A-tier (Wesker) should be the standard for killer strength and maps should be balanced around that power level.
I disagreed with what the majority of overall killer feedback was regarding pallet density. I haven't played the update yet (I won't, I'm done with BHVR jingling keys for nerfs to camp/tunnel/slug only to pull the rug every time and nerf survivors again) but I'm going to hazard a guess that all the nerfs to map size, main buildings, and jungle gym tiles weren't touched in this update? I could barely get killer mains to even acknowledge these nerfs existed and accompanied the pallet changes. Most of the feedback I saw was wildly exaggerated when I played Demo (I think he's underrated but surely not S-tier) on the previous update and still did just fine with the extra pallets. Yet every content creator had conveyor belts of videos with titles like…
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Maybe you as a killer main didn't but its clear from the responses they got that many do. Haddonfield is the only realm that got more votes on an option that wasn't "favors survivors" and even then nearly a quarter of respondents stated it favors survivors.
I agree that we ultimately need to call out BHVR for pushing the update but at some point it needs to be accepted that every social media platform is dominated by killer mains and killer narratives. Just look at how many people you see doubting the 70% of players wanted 2v8 extended.
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Pretty sure this is what people were asking for and per usual the monkey paw strikes again. Like it does every other time the community asks for a nerf or a revert.
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Cause all the Killers and content creators cried so hard they got all the changes got scrapped and majority of pallets removed it's now a killer sided major buff
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Maybe it was the zillion unnuanced complaints that pallets destroyed 90% of the roster?
And I think you might be giving some people too much credit. I'm sure plenty of players want easy wins for ego boosting.
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The community is full of "Us vs Them", because the devs do nothing to quash such behavior and even recently with the whole "Evil Killer slugging" on live stream engaging it themselves.
But doesn't help that devs struggle to read the room of what people were actually complaining about and then go 150% in the opposite direction if feedback is remotely negative.
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Why are people acting like killers wanted what's happened?
because they did want this
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There clearly can be no discussion while people are this pissed. The devs failing to bring all the QoL they said they would to survivors has really made survivor players like a hornet nest stinging everyone. This happens literally every time the game has an update that leans in one direction. This community literally never changes and instead of directing their unhappiness at the devs and trying to get it fixed in a meaningful way they just get pissed at everyone. For all the horrible back and forth knee jerk changes the devs do at this point I don't think any change would make this playerbase fully happy besides a full on rework of the spagheti codebase. It's sad cause it was looking so good after the roadmap actual discussions and goodwill in the community. But now I am reminded of how miserable it was to be in the community during the gen kick meta literally just angry people everywhere. So I am just not going to bother hope you guys sort this out.
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Because the “us vs them” tribalism in this game is out of control. The loudest voices are those who only play one side or the other and do nothing but demand endless nerfs for the side they don’t play.
Playing both sides should be a prerequisite for offering input on game balance.9 -
it should start with the devs actually playing and understanding their game. we wouldn’t have these outlandish changes if the devs knew about the in’s and out’s of THEIR OWN GAME. they listen to feedback because they don’t know what to change besides looking at spreadsheet data. and when they listen to feedback, it’s always the as you said “loudest voices” and only play one side. if the devs knew their game, they wouldn’t implement such horrid ideas because they would know ahead of time that it won’t work or is a waste of time. almost in year 10 and the devs still haven’t moved from first base. only reason they got to first base from home plate in the first place was because of fnaf.
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I'mma need Devs to have at least 5k hours log to balance this game
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I think you're just not paying attention honestly lol
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Because this community survives on a steady diet of Us vs Them. Buck stops with the devs
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Yeah the Dev's need to be held accountable, it's not Killers or Survivors
It's Players vs Devs at this point and we need to make it clear we aren't happy with how they treat the games health.16 -
This is obscene. It's the exact opposite of what everyone in the killer community asked for. We wanted density FULLY REVERTED (except some on HF, which I think was actually overtuned with density but it only needed like 1-2 loops removed/weakened around main street to make it more fair). Instead we got a slight reduction in pallets but they're ALL unsafe now, meaning "hold W" is stronger than ever. This is NOT what people wanted. It makes the game worse for survivors, it makes killer gameplay less engaging, and it furthers the prerun meta. I cannot say this in more explicit terms: We need FEWER PALLETS, MEDIUM STRENGTH - like how it was before density. No more of this "200,000 unsafe pallets, millions must predrop" nonsense. I want to LOOP I like DOCTOR let me use my power and not spend 90% of the chase catching up.
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Because the community is so engrossed in the Us VS Them they have to blame the other side for any problem.
I mean, try having any opinion here and someone from one side will have a problem with what you say. Despite the fact that none of us have the real say in the end product.0 -
Players simply need someone to blame for changes they don't like.
Since they can't get a reaction from the devs, cause they just act like criticism doesn't exist, they blame the other side. At least killer mains show a reaction with posts like this one.
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I don't blame killer mains.
I blame the whiners who want every single facet of this game to be bent in their favor. Those people are the ones who ruin every balance post by insisting on a reward for them.
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I have a question.
If Killer mains used these polls showed earlier…. why did so few Survivors say it feels better?
I mean do the math… If we have 100.000 players (easy numbers) and over 80% are Killer Mains which screamed about the pallet density than we had around 80.000 Killers and only 20.000 Survivors, which means there are 4 times more Killer mains than Survivors?
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the forum is very much an "Us vs Them" mindset, sometimes it feels like neither side realises they need the other in order for the game to be playable
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i hardly doubt videos with under 100k views affect the wider community, even the 158k one doesnt mean all 158k viewers are from killers or even from people who play the game. saying the content creators are responsible, even partly, is misguided
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Killer mains are just louder and more outspoken about balance in general. This isn't even something anyone can deny. You can see it literally everywhere. If they are making balancing decisions based on polls from less than 500 people on the forums then that is just embarrassing. It shows how they have no conviction and no idea what they're doing. I'll put it another way. Would you accept killers being balanced the same way?
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Some players. Not all. Some.
Just like not all survivors are crybabies who dc every time I breathe in this game, not all killers want instant gratification. And I doubt you could even say its a lot of killer players who like this that's just a strawman based on trolls and bad players. Calling for a revert is not calling for instant gratification, we just want to be able to go five steps without breaking pallets (like when springtrap came out). The killer playerbase is overall smaller but it's the one with 'the most skill' for lack of a better word (this is also why killers are more vocal, overall they're more dedicated). That's not me saying the survivor playerbase is unskilled, just that the playerbase and the mode itself leans a bit more casual. There's a lot of skill you can gleam from survivor especially at the mid-high range but killer is the mode that is seen as (and is) more challenging especially when you start off. Removing the challenge kills the fun of the mode just the same as making it pallet break simulator.
Actually, what I just said gave me a thought. Is this what they meant when they said improve the new player experience? Istg.
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As I already said choosing 'favours survivors' does not mean it should favour killers intrinsically. It's a very vague bit of feedback that BHVR could have quantified with 2 more options on that poll.
Even if every single killer main said to skull merchant (verb) pallets, BHVR didn't have to do it. Just like if someone told me to burn my house down, I wouldn't even consider it. Because balance teams exist and are supposed to know how to balance their game properly. I play sonic racing for instance, and in the single player modes you can play super sonic which is just a free win. If half the playerbase of that game said to add supersonic to online, do you think sega should do it, or should they just make a super sonic cosmetic for base sonic.
BHVR is always the one at fault for balancing decisions, some troll whining on reddit is not responsible for the state of the game. Ever.
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100% agree. I play both sides but main killer and survs are acting like we wanted to have so many changes. I want game health changes. I want hag to be buffed, shes one of my mains and is in a horrible state. Theres so much overkill everytime new updates come out for both sides but ppl are reducing it to "killers cried wahh" or whatever when we didn't.
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This. I think ppl forget that its not exclusively a killer thing to be upset and loud abt changes. Everyone's unhappy no matter what
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Yes, the poll is vague. Yes, it could have been better. Yes, its ultimately BHVRs fault. Yes, some players not all, but enough that it matters.
And I doubt you could even say its a lot of killer players who like this that's just a strawman based on trolls and bad players.
When as many videos pop up about this change as we saw for the PTBs I will agree but I bet we don't see nearly as many.
The killer playerbase is overall smaller but it's the one with 'the most skill' for lack of a better word (this is also why killers are more vocal, overall they're more dedicated).
I agree, the killer player base is more dedicated which is why they dominate all social media platforms but I disagree with the claim that they are more skilled. I would bet its proportionally about the same as survivor. Many just think they are more skilled because they win more often and many of these players will always consider survivors skill less.
Loop them, just running in circles. Held W at the right time, I just held a single key. Take advantage of perks, they lost to perks not skill. Understand map layouts and finished vital gens first without any gen speed up, still gen rushing. Can't down me the moment I get off hook, hand-holding. Those are literally all of my options. And we don't get this from just bad players, I see it everywhere, even from major content creators who win basically every single one of their matches and should be beyond this.
That's not me saying the survivor playerbase is unskilled, just that the playerbase and the mode itself leans a bit more casual.
There are tons of casual killers, you just won't see them here or on other platforms because they are casuals. Anyone here is basically by definition not a casual.
There's a lot of skill you can gleam from survivor especially at the mid-high range but killer is the mode that is seen as (and is) more challenging especially when you start off.
Square the circle of killer narratives for me. Low MMR is killer sided but also apparently killer is more challenging when you start off? Its one or the other. Yes, you eventually hit a wall but push past that and you will end up winning basically all of your matches.
Post edited by FerrousFacade on7 -
I disagree with almost all of this.
From what I see in my survivor matches, it's not a small portion of cheap killers. People who hard tunnel the first person they see aren't in every game, but they're common enough, and even when they're unsuccessful, they clearly wanted the path of least resistance. Same for slugging for the 4k. Why have any challenging hunts for the last survivor when you can make one lick the floor until you find the other? I have friends who, for whatever mysterious reason, are AFK at the start of basically every match. Killers with Lethal come over and down them without a second thought, almost always. Even if I stand there and shake my head at them, it just earns me a down too. They have two people who aren't even contributing to the match at that moment yet still go for the easy path.
I agree killer mains are often more dedicated (though I think that's a nice word for it) but that doesnt mean it's higher skill. Killers can win with little to no skill. Survivor is far more percise, as well as info-heavy. One tiny mistake in a chase and you can be downed, and even if you juice the hell out if someone, they can eventually bloodlust until there's nothing you can do. One tiny mistake in end game and am assured 0k can become a sudden 4k. I put much less effort into killer than survivor but do much better. Killer is certainly the more stressful role, as you have to be in a constant motion, whereas survivor has quiet moments.
Different killers also have different skill levels. There are plenty you can hop on for the first time and win. I just got Vecna and tested him out for the first time last night. I wasnt trying very hard, just trying to get a feel, yet the two matches were both 4Ks, even with me bumbling my way through learning the spell wheel. And my opponents weren't awful players or anything. I started this game as a killer-only player and despite never interacting with videos or social media, no knowledge of anythng meta or any techs, not understanding survivor perks or gameplay one single bit, and barely understanding killer ones either, I still did fine playing very casually. And I didn't touch survivor for a long time becuase I found it too difficult. You also have to worry about dragging your team down. As killer, I liked being responsible for just me.
I didn't have any issue with the pallets as killer so I didn't even understand these complaints, and a lot of what I saw was people making whole new posts because they clearly had one or two bad games and blamed pallets. Did I break a few more? Sure. But I was still sitting at a 78% KR for the 30 day period before the revert, so it didn't seem to affect me much.
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I wanted to go back to before pallet density. Where pallets were pretty strong, but more spaced out. Now we got alot of pallets that are all garbage, so if you somehow win a 50/50, they can still be chained together
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Content creation definitely doesn't help. People would be very surprised at how little they truly care about many issues once they stop consuming DbD content on Twitch or YouTube.
Viewers are constantly being told what issues they need to be angry about, and I think a lot of people only get upset about tunneling/slugging/etc because they think they're supposed to be upset about it.
My advice to people: just play the game. Do what you want. Stop getting yourselves worked up over stuff you wouldn't even be thinking about unless some streamer spoke about it.
The game is a lot less stressful that way. If being tunneled or having someone pre-drop a pallet truly upsets someone, more power to them. But I've come to find it's not that deep for me.
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Because there were people who wanted this, and people celebrating this, and more saying people are overreacting.
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At least from comments I have read it seemed to be minority.
Before this patch what I have seen most what basically just asking for revert of previous "QoL" change. Except few maps, which actually needed it like Borgo, or Haddonfield.
So I would say devs should be blamed for current situation, not killers in general.3 -
I'm not blaming them in general, just those specific people for being massively tone-deaf.
I put more blame on CC's who flipped the ######### out as soon as BHVR touched tunneling and slugging.
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Less skilled was the wrong word, I was struggling to actually say what I meant. What I was actually trying to say was that a massive portion of the survivor playerbase is the casual 'play drunk with friends on a Saturday night kind' not the dedicated loop for 4 gens kind. When it comes to less involved casual members killer just isnt what they want because it has more perceived stress that a casual player wouldn't want to deal with. That's why I was saying that killers being a lot more outspoken isn't surprising, because they actually notice and take the game more seriously. The casual survivors are less likely to be turned onto this stuff than us more dedicated/involved members of the community (not just the killers but the more dedicated survivor mains). I didn't explain that very well and that did hurt my point a little.
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I kinda question this claim myself.
I watch and check the forums, youtube, twitch at times and reddit and it's a bit of an echo chamber depending on where you are. I see a majority of survivor bias on the reddit, it's kinda mixed here with a slight nudge toward killer or survivor depending on the patch with a few dedicated mains here or there, and content creators are VERY echo-chambered depending on the creator which made it hard to find unbiased sources.
That is just my lurking these places though, I could be wrong but I can't claim killer sided players are the majority.-1 -
Not all killers wanted these changes, but some think they’re completely fine. I was having a discussion with someone on the Steam forums, and they said it’s a skill issue on the survivor’s side and that the pallets were fine. It really boggles my mind how anyone can defend this. It’s apparently a skill issue for survivors, but perfectly fine to have your hand held when it comes to killers. Like, really?
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I don't know how anyone new can approach survivor with the drunk-with-friends mindset at this point and end up sticking around unless they either 1) become devoted or 2) are a masochist that enjoys a murder simulator. Because if you're that casual, you're probably dying all the time if killers are actually more intense by default, and no one likes to loose every match no matter how causal they are. This game is so bloated with perks and so info-heavy while having the world's worst tutorial that I don't even know how you can do it. You're generally considered a baby until you have around 1k hours, and that's not a small amount for most people. I tried to get my partner to play this game and, even with me crafting them a baby perk load out and being in full babysitter mode, that experiment lasted about 5-10 matches. It's just not appealing to many new players. 2v8 is where I personally took the plunge into survivor. It's simplified, less intense, low stakes, and you don't have to worry about being a burden so much. I don't love the mode myself, but it's the best tutorial we've got.
And yeah, I agree, we aren't normal casuals here. It's why I always try to advocate for new and casual players because they're unlikely to have much of a voice of their own and I think they're essential to keeping the game alive. The 10ker hour players should be able to roll with the punches, though many can't seem to.
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You're thinking about this too logically, alcohol is a hell of a substance.
But in all seriousness though, I don't think at the mmr's they'd hover around at they'd notice a ton of difference. The killers down there would more than likely not know how to push the pain points like we would. Generally though, with all the stuff happening like the confusion, the constant balance changes some of which get scrapped and everything I feel like (just like everyone else) their experience is just gonna be worse. I doubt if theyve been here this long they'll necessarily go anywhere, this is basically the only place you can get this kinda gameplay, so BHVR will face exactly 0 consequences for their 600th screw up this month.
The scary thing is 600 is probably accurate if we factor in bugs.
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And the funny thing is that BHVR didnt touch those things. They just sent it to PTB. So people were flipping their ######### over changes to a video game that literally hadn't even happened and potentially wouldn't happen. And these are grown adults.
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But they *were* overtuned heavily in the Survivor's favor. The amount of god setups spawning was not okay, and it needed to be changed.
The issue was BHVR, like with 60% of their nerfs, went way too far in the other direction. The solution was not to right click > delete every asset near one side of every filler pallet in the game.
Also I do find it quite nefarious that you're accusing people of "brigading" just because the polls did not match your opinion. I've been seeing a concerning uptick in that kind of rhetoric lately (the majority disagrees with me = they're botting/alting/brigading, we're the "silent majority" etc etc), and I don't think it serves for any kind of productive discussion, it's very conspiratorial.
These polls were not the sole arbiter of feedback, either, there are many avenues BHVR pull from.
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