http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why does DS only work once?
Hello everyone it´s me again,
I have a question to the perk DS. Why is DS only usable once?
How did this question form in my head?
Well it is pretty simple. Perks like OTR or DH (which can be used as Anti Tunnel) are multible use so let us compare them in theory with DS.
OTR/DS: Both perks do protect you from a down by the Killer. While OTR does it passivly, DS needs to be used activly and only triggers if the Killer picks you up.
Pro OTR:
- two times use
- additional effects which even go on when you do something else
- u get the hit haste effect
Con OTR
- can be triggerd off hook, but still gives u distance
- Kill can notice this perk because you get the iron will effect (which can lead to the Killer dropping the chase)
Pro DS:
- stuns the Killer and gives you some distance (arguable shorter distance than the whole whipping to haste from endurance hit)
- can not be denied by off the hook hit
Con DS
- only usable once
- doesn´t give you that much distance
- Killer needs activly to pick you up
- the moment you do a gen or heal the whole effect is over
- need to hit a Skill Check if you fail the perk is gone aswell and did nothing.
As you see the perks are kinda comparable but with the big difference that DS is only usable once.
What would change if DS was active twice?
Well I think the following would occure.
If you are not tunneling on purpuse you will know after the first hit of DS that it is in play and you can decide if you want to tunnel more but still need to endure a second DS.
IF you go in with the intend to tunnel you will get a much rougher time.
So it would only hurt the Killer when he is activly trying to tunnel the user out which an Anti Tunnel perk shold come into game.
Comments
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it should be two uses and the skill check should be removed. With it becoming a general perk it will be a strong anti tunnel perk.
-1 -
That's the major thing I never liked about DS. Once it's used, the Killer can then freely tunnel you. (Unless you also have OTR, but who wants to run an entire build dedicated to tunnel-countering?)
12 -
If you don’t mind, could you all show me your playtime statistics for Killer and Survivor?
-17 -
It should've been a 5 secound stun.
Idk why killers got so mad over the buff when its whole purpose is being an anti-tunnel perk, activating once.
Im glad its universal and i hope everyone uses it.
With it being general, they probably give less of a ######### do bother buffing it since "why would we make free perks good"
17 -
DS is time wasting pretty a lot. One stun giving like a whole new chance for chase and even stage. Two additional chases forced for killer, maybe it can be “solution to hardtunnel”, but def ignore and doesn’t count many other situations.
Limitations to one use more likely because 4 people can stack it in match. This perk already breaking basics principle of lose chase = lose life.
-2 -
Yeah I think it is a good step into the direction it only affects hard tunneling.
I thought myself what when everyone runs it. But would this be a huge problem? A not tunneling Killer would play against 3 perk Survivors while a hard tunneling one would get only ds from 1 or 2 people because he can´t tunnel all at once.
0 -
As person who use DS myself, I would like to say you can use it offensively a lot for non tunneling killers. If there are fast hook stages, or when you need buy time, or when you need to bait killer because you with DS gonna last longer than your teammate. So no, I don’t find it realistic allowing two time use just because in only one case this perk can be used against hard tunneling as a help. It’s already helping enough in case of hard tunneling if you learn how to use it. When I was actually hardtunneled from the start, this perk won game for others 3 of my teammates if I played well or sometimes killer was even giving up. Well, if my teammates are understanding it. It already serves its role, and I can’t imagine how it can work if it’s in 4 stack sfw because never played like this. Especially if it’s 2 time use. No, this is too broken. You even don’t really tunnel in 3vs1 scenario, so this is ridiculous person can force new chase over and over after literally losing it.
Matches are too variable and you can force many cases of “tunneling” where it’s not a killer intention. So I don’t like sentiment where people believe one solution against extreme case not gonna touch other ones.
You can buff DS, but in other way. Teammates need to see is this perk equipped and its activation time in solo q. I don’t share opinion u need buff any meta perks rn, just adding more info. People need to be encouraged using perks in right way and boosting already good skill, not being blessed and protected by default. We already encountered kinda braindead meta with new killer design, pallet density and new syringe for example. Personally I’m done with it. There are no motivation actually play smart and well, countering each other strategies nowadays. BHVR need to fix this first of all3 -
I'll let you have that on the condition that a survivor with DS active like that can't drop pallets or flashlight save.
-5 -
Limitations to one use more likely because 4 people can stack it in match.
With how conditional it is, would 4 people all having it even come into play at any point?
6 -
Never should have more than one use per survivor per match. People already use it to waste killers time if it worked more often it would waste even more time and I am not even talking about tunneling in this.
-5 -
If there are no limitations implemented by game itself - absolutely
I am myself wouldn’t stop use DS if there are gonna buff it that way. And knowing my play, I am gonna use it aggressively if will have such necessity.
I recently played again after some month of break, and had relatively easy games. The only issue of solo q is that disorganised chaos and people not doing gens. And honestly idk how to solve it. I simply gave up and running meta with some sole survivor now
-2 -
i think dbd should have pubs and rank modes, rank modes should have the same dbd like we have today with strict item pick map size spawn locations etc, and pub mode should be with gigantic maps to increase the horror atmosphere with better map design and more optional objectives to escape like it was in the friday the 13th etc with events and fun stuff, making the game both engaging for sweats and for people that want to have fun, DS wont have 2 stages since its going to buff the good players by a lot.
-2 -
Pretty common against sweat teams 4 ds, 4 dead hards, minimaly 2 unbreakables and some other meta perks problem with ds is that this perk isnt that bad the distance you get is like 12 meters in straight line if we dont count one for drop and killers with no mobility can do much against whole team who is running it and using it agressively with bodyblocks and otr or dead hard especialy m1 killers (even ghostface cant fight it because hitting survivor removes his stalk meter progress) so many killers whould get harder destroyed even more than now against these teams that go just full of meta. Blights and ghould doesnt care or nurse (if she doesnt get her bug) but ghostface,trapper,wraith, pinhead will get smacked by full team running ds that can be used two times.
-2 -
If they maybe nerfed it to 3 seconds or kept 4 and made that survivor broken and made him unable to use items that could work but with current effects it would be gg with m1 killer that doesnt have crazy catch up against 3 or 4 survivors running it (and after short time it will free so chances would be super high to have it in every game atleast on two survivors).
-5 -
to be fair, if tunneling is as common and unstoppable as people claim it to be then why wouldnt you run an entire build dedicated to countering tunneling? it seems people know what the issue is, they know there are counters to it and perks to aid in countering but do people use them? nope…. thats on them.
i mean if im constantly seeing a particular play style it makes sense to go prepared to counter it, like if everyone was bringing hex perks then i would start running anti hex builds. or if killers were slugging every match then i would bring anti slugging to the table. same with killers, if im finding a lot of people are looping pretty well in my matches then it makes sense to go anti loop killers or go anti loop builds. unless tunneling doesnt happen that often?
0 -
To be fair, for quite a few people that is the complaint.
You have to run very specific perks every single match because if you don't have them and the killer decides to leverage a basekit balance problem, you have practically no defence. There's no winning position there for quality of life- either you don't get to craft full builds or you're at the mercy of your opponent's good will.
That situation is the problem, or at least part of it.
7 -
An impact of "I already lost chase and am about to get hooked, let me undo that real quick" is far too high to allow it multiple uses. I get people want it to do even more because they hate tunneling, but people's perspective on the perk have been warping more and more over time. And I don't mean stuff about the stun duration (as that has rightfully moved the needle in people's minds) but the sheer downplay it gets is sometimes baffling.
Give killers a perk that lets them kick completed gens, even once per match. Watch how much that would completely shift the tide of a match if used even remotely adequately. Even if it did no instant regression, being able to reopen a wound in your opponent's gameplan that drastically is a bridge too far in terms of objective denial. The limitations on the perk are what keep its impact in check, especially since it can already trigger up to (but not necessarily) 4 times . Its certainly more healthy than the DS/UB combo days, but its not healthy enough to allow it to happen up to 8 regardless of its other conditions. Not in a game where you want people to stop expecting the worst and instead avoid engaging in a meta arms race.
-1 -
So you want us to run four perks to counter tunneling, hexes, aura-reading, gen slowdown, healing slowdown?
Sure, give me 20 more perk slots, and I'll be sure to run builds that counter everything the Killer can bring.
4 -
but you dont have to use them, i dont use them and i do ok. for the ones that struggle, it makes sense to bring everything in their arsenal to combat things they are having issues with. no different to Woo so people can see pallets and vaults. some people dont need it but the ones that struggle without it then its there for them use.
while tunneling is pretty much a basekit tactic, survivors have basekit tactics which counter it such as loops, stealth and the 3 other team mates that can make gens fly while 1 is being tunneled.
its surprising how many survivors bring literally nothing, no perks, no items and then complain when the killer wins or complains when the killer tunnels them out.
-4 -
The context of what chase you lost is pretty important, though- it's not just any chase, it is specifically and exclusively a chase where the killer decided to target you after an unhook.
I could see your point if we were discussing DS in its glory days before the Conspicuous Actions nerf, but these days even being hit with a 59 second DS while not tunnelling is a situation that breaks in the killer's favour because that survivor was being useless for almost a full minute.
5 -
there are 4 survivors….thats 16 perks.
killer has only 4 perk slots, how is the killer going to have a hex build and aura build and gen slow down build? thats my point. the killer is limited to what build they can go for, you dont know what they have so you dont know what to prepare for so you prepare for the most common which from what others have said is tunneling.
-3 -
The context of what chase you lost is pretty important, though- it's not just any chase, it is specifically and exclusively a chase where the killer decided to target you after an unhook.I completely understand that point, I just don't think even that justifies how much the perk can actually do. It would take extra conditions to reign in the possibilities of 4 players who know how to force the perk (and I'm sure there will be the usual suspects arguing about how you can't use DS aggressively, but I'm not here for that) having up to 8 chances to do that type of objective denial without at least needing resources like flashlights or pallets (since they have other uses outside of that scenario.) It absolutely would have been more cut and dry in the perk's hayday, but again, I don't think its in a place where it would be reasonable. Its impact potential is still too high when used correctly, even with its current stun duration. I'm talking strictly from a design perspective, which is why I feel like a lot of people's emotional reaction can easily get in the way on the topic.
these days even being hit with a 59 second DS while not tunnelling is a situation that breaks in the killer's favour because that survivor was being useless for almost a full minute.There are plenty of ways to be useful to your team without touching a gen. Granted gens are far and away the most useful toward the survivor goal, but things like objective denial don't count as conspicuous actions. You can still do things like bodyblock, throw pallets, use flashlights/flashbangs, any multitude of ways to distract the killer. Which are arguably extremely conspicuous actions by definition but would be too difficult to account for without hurting players who get tunneled, so here we are. I understand why people want to be able to use it more specifically because of the intended use case, but I don't believe the game is anywhere near concise enough for that to be a justification for ignoring its unintended scenarios.
-3 -
Focus on making tunneling you less rewarding instead of relying on perks to be a golden parachute. You'll open up a lot of build variety, rely on bailouts less, and maybe even find more fun in the game so as to not focus so hard on frustration. Even when you get tunnelled into a loss, the time you waste can easily lead to punishing the killer for trying to take the easy option. Talking about forced perks should center around things that players can't control, like accessibility or reducing guesswork, like Bond/Kindred(which everyone wants basekit, yet nobody runs)/Lightborn/old Shadowborne/old Spine Chill/etc. Improving as a player is always within our individual control, even when the game around us isn't.
2 -
You know I was being sarcastic, right? My point was that it's unrealistic to expect us to run a perk to counter something basekit like tunneling. Jesterkind explained that far more eloquently.
6 -
Sure, but it's getting less and less possible with the way the devs have been weakening maps and loops across the board.
And yeah, I already have Kindred as a permanent perk in my build, as well as Soul Guard (to counter slugging). It makes no difference whether I run anti-tunnel perks or not, because the Killer can easily tunnel through them, no matter how skilled you are. I've seen that countless times. If you manage to buy enough time for the teammates to escape, great. But if you get tunneled, you will die. People don't want to play a match where their death is guaranteed.
1 -
its realistic for the ones that need a full build to counter it. not every one does need a full anti tunnel build. my point is if someone is complaining about something, knowing what the solution is, knowing what perks counter it and the choose not to set them then they cant really complain.
Basekit counters include
- stealth, killer cant tunnel what they cant find.
- looping, a killer tunneling a good looper often leads to them losing the match or abandoning chase which stops the tunneling.
- the team as a whole is basekit for survivor, body blocks, unhooking at the right time, flashlight saves just to name a few.
If these basekit counters are not enough then there a number of perks to help, if one or 2 perks dont help then yes a full build is needed for that player.
Killers are in the same boat and i think the same way about killers when they say "we shouldnt have to use full slow down perks"… if basekit pressure and basekit tactics fail v basekit gen speeds or gen rush builds then yes absolutely they should use a slow down build. Thats what the perks are there for, to help players counter a specific situation they are struggling with.
-1 -
Sure, but it's getting less and less possible with the way the devs have been weakening maps and loops across the board.And it was more and more possible when you couldn't sneeze without hitting another pallet. Game balance ebbs and flows, so its important to consider all of it instead of just the aspects that particularly frustrate us as players. You can't cut off your nose to spite your face.
And yeah, I already have Kindred as a permanent perk in my build, as well as Soul Guard (to counter slugging).Both reasonable. Kindred is an extremely underrated perk for solo q in general, but the sheer amount of reliance on crutches are why people refuse to run it, despite how much everyone on the team benefits from even a single person taking it. If people took the advice to improve rather than to rely on habit forming perks like WoO, they would easily be able to find room for it in their loadouts. And that's coming from experience, I used to crutch hard on spine chill in my early days (especially for stealth killers) and being able to take it out of my loadout made me miss it less and less as I got better.
It makes no difference whether I run anti-tunnel perks or not, because the Killer can easily tunnel through them, no matter how skilled you are. I've seen that countless times. If you manage to buy enough time for the teammates to escape, great. But if you get tunneled, youwilldie. People don't want to play a match where their death is guaranteed.Then why isn't the kill rate 100%? If it is clearly so futile that it works every single time, how do people beat it? Being defeatist about it is why it seems like it always works: You stop trying to find ways to counter it and it becomes acceptance. It can be extremely daunting when you have a bad game, but even just using each time you get tunneled as an opportunity to try different techniques/routing/mindgames/etc gives you more of a chance than 0. It even gives you more info to pull from whether it works or not, so you have a starting point on what to try or avoid next time. Sure, you've got a good chance of dying when you get tunnelled, but its nowhere near as hopeless as people make it out to be in most situations. And even in the event it is, the only true loss is one you learn nothing from, regardless of what the entity says.
-1 -
I am gonna use it aggressively
But 'using it aggressively', in DS' case, means getting yourself hooked, then not contributing to the team, and then giving the killer a down. That's not a winning strategy if the killer doesn't pick you up, which they shouldn't if you make it too obvious that you have DS.
But the point is that 4-stacking it doesn't really do much for the perk. It doesn't have internal synergy and overlap. If one person is getting their DS activated, someone else isn't.
What are the odds that all four survivors get to be downed within 60 seconds after being unhooked? That's the only scenario in which 4 copies of DS would actually be distinguishable as four copies, as opposed to at least one being a dead slot.
2 -
Because OTR only really has the hit animation as a form of slowdown.
DS has the hit animation, the pickup animation, and THEN the 4 second stun afterwards.
2 -
Two uses would be too over powered. There's the issue already with someone coming off hook with 4 health states and intentionally taking chase, we don't need to make that BOTH of their hook states.
Post edited by Brimp on4 -
4 man with ds means it doesnt matter who you hook they all get second chance and most likely use it agressively (by forcing bodyblock), you can tunnel someone for preasure when you are on 1 or 2 gens left with few hooks not to mention 4 man teams running ds doesnt run just ds but other strong meta perks like unbreakable or dead hard so their options are huge and only one who is having some chance are meta killers which have powers that can deal with all these perks. Just imagine they are very good in doing gens and they arent super bad at looping then with m1 killer you dont have much options because they will have deffinitely 3 gens done on your 3-4 hooks which is huge difference in preasure. If you dont belive ds can be used for bodyblocks then you probably havent met good 4 man than slowed you a lot just with effective bodyblocks (I have seen many games, streaks with m1 killers failed just becuase the survivors had great timing with bodyblocks and gave each other protection hits that made killer loose preasure drasticaly).
What you saying is same as is it worth running ruin when it gets destroyed in less than one minute of the match, well you never know. The bodyblocks I mean are the ones where unhooked guy doesnt even care if you down him because some will surely have unbreakable or exponencial so it doesnt matter who you tunnel or not if you dont do it from the start and be successful the survivors will mostly just get destroyed by 4 mans without powerfull killer or decent killer who isnt joke when it comes at punishing survivors for altruistic plays like huntress or bubba.
-2 -
what if someone gets tunneled and wants to drop a pallet?
3 -
Why isn't the kill rate 100%? Because not every Killer tunnels. Some Killers like to challenge themselves by not playing the easy way, and are willing to accept losses when they get outplayed.
1 -
100% agree. we could even use the analogy of: If you're going outside and its raining out, you should wear a raincoat
-3 -
so why is my kill rate not 100%? is there any killer here that openly admits to tunneling and gets 100% kill rate? i have admitted to tunneling hard and im not gettting 100% kill rate with any killer doing that.
your claiming the reason kill rates are not 100% is due to the killers that dont tunnel, how do you explain the lack of 100% kill rate for the killers that do?
-2 -
I mean my point very clearly was that its not an infallable situation. Trying to rephrase more specifically, do you truly believe 100% of all competent tunnels lead to kills (let alone wins?) That nobody has figured out ways to trip people up when they tunnel, nor take advantage of it as the rest of the team? I'm not saying futility doesn't happen, just that its most often self inflicted.
1 -
Because the other three bust out gens while the one being tunneled dies.
-1 -
Unless you can directly prevent a down or hook, thats what you're supposed to be doing. The tunnelled person's time waste is what lets them finish them, so any extension is pure progress time for the team. Its what usually leads to tunneling leading the killer to lose when it happens.
1 -
Right, but we're talking about the person being tunneled. It's a guaranteed death for them. And it's certainly not any more fun for the people sitting on gens. I know it's no more fun for me to watch a teammate get tunneled than it is to get tunneled myself.
-1 -
And I'm saying its not about fun, its about being the change you want to see. Its not about the tunnelled person guaranteeing their own escape, its about punishing the killer for trying. If they don't submit to sunk cost fallacy, they should be able to recognize when to drop off, and you escape. If they don't, their chances of losing for it go up. Either way you're not rewarding the behavior, and doing whats in your control to escape.
0 -
so we have gone from its not 100% kill rate because some killers dont tunnel to its not 100% kill rate because survivors are doing their objective which leads to a loss for the killer. so you have just proven tunneling isnt always a winning tactic, survivors are escaping, killers are not using tunneling to win every match, killers can in fact lose when they tunnel, it has its down side like all tactics should have.
Then we got the survivor side…. as survivor i have come across tunnelers many times. there are loads of matches the killer ended up abandoning the chase because they couldnt catch the survivor. some have even DC'd after 3 gens popped while they were tunneling. I have done this myself many times without anti tunnel perks. so your comment of "But if you get tunneled, you
willdie. People don't want to play a match where their death is guaranteed." Which clearly isnt true as myself and others have been tunneled and have still escaped.At some point it has to be skill issue which is fine, not everyone is skilled enough to counter tunneling with no anti tunnel perks and there is nothing wrong with that, different people have different skill levels but thats what the perks are for, to help. By shunning the help thats offered and saying "i shouldnt have to use them" your making that choice to go into a match hoping the killer doesnt tunnel instead of preparing for it, setting yourself up for a loss if the killer does tunnel
-3 -
But the person being tunneled still dies, with or without anti-tunnel perks. Unless they get really lucky.
4 -
i have escaped many times after being tunneled with no perks so that statement is false. i have escaped by looping the killer…. your saying every time i out loop the killer is luck and that luck happens a lot? wish i had that luck with the lottery lol
-2 -
Yeah, it's just as likely that you looped an unskilled Killer, which would be luck.
-1 -
so all these tunnelers could be winning by luck….likely to tunnel an unskilled survivor which would be luck right?
-3 -
U seriously underestimate time person can waste before getting down again, which in every normal team gives a free gen progression. If it’s in your case the only benefit person can get is 4 sec. of stun and +10 sec of looping, for me it’s the bare minimum this perk provides rn. I’m also not that kind of person who forcing DS for no reason. No “oh, I need to run to killer face just because”. Examples were shortly explained above. As I said before, there are cases when killer snowballs too fast, and other person already on hook after me being rescued. This is the best moment to bait killer on me being injured and walking around with DS, giving others time for reset.
I doubt I am a time waster and ruining match for no reason to my teammates in average game. Ofc I can sometimes accidentally sandbag or do stupid play, but DS never disappointed me in use. Just an example 16 matches two days ago. 8 matches when I died. In 4 games I died never being hooked before. 4 matches I died during endgame. Only in one game I had opportunity to use DS because killer tried to tunnel, and I died in endgame. By my own fault because was to reckless during opening gates.
In games where I escaped in 4 matches either me, or someone else forced DS on killer. In one match I would die if not forcing DS (and killer didn’t tunnel me). So… 50% ER considering I didn’t touch this game for month and played in normal q where average killer enjoy tunnels more, while more chill players playing event. DS is broken perk. I’m just not asking for fixing it, but buffing it gonna be ridiculous story. It’s fine as it is and maybe only info factor need be provided for solo q, nothing more. My own games showed me DS can be used in non tunneling scenarios, just being “second chance” by default.-1 -
Buff Ds to 5 seconds and make it usable twice
If Devs don't want to directly punish tunneling then our only option is to buff the tools to counter it
-1 -
Hey guys,
First of all, thanks for all these feedbacks.
I red them all and I will try to give some opinions to them.
- Increase the Stun duration: I am completly against this. It is not a good feeling on the Killer side to be disabled for that long. I think 4 is the golden mid. From time to time I thought only about a 3 second stun but a Sprintburst for the Survivor to get into a better position against Killers like Nurse, Blight and so on which would have been archived by its own against weaker Killers.
- Abusing the perk: This is a topic which could be archived right now aswell if all Survivors equip DS. But I think the Elusive State or whatever it was called could be great against using DS to bodyblock and such things.
The most important thing for me is to try to stop hard tunneling. Which the change of 2 charges of DS could archive.
Why do I think this?
Getting hit by a DS is always a slap on the wrist for the Killer. But normaly it means now the survivor can be tunneld for free. If you don´t want to get hit by another DS you just don´t tunnel them.
And as some people claimed 4 DS would be the horror. I think in no game more than 2 DS would happen. The First one if you want to tunnel. You get hit and tell yourself: Damn I need another target or I get hit twice. The other would be if you try to focus another survivor out by tunneling. Atleast now you must change your tactic away from tunneling or you would lose the game.
0 -
A skilled Killer getting matched with an unskilled Survivor would have to be luck, given how the MMR matchmaking works (or doesn't). From what I'm seeing, about 99% of the community agrees that the matchmaking sucks. But matches shouldn't be won purely with luck or cheese.
2 -
Right, 'forced DS'.
How do you do that, exactly? Because to my knowledge, nothing can force a pick-up action from the killer. You can't reach through their computer screen and press spacebar for them.
4 man with ds means it doesnt matter who you hook they all get second chance
But they don't all get second chance at the same time, is the point. You are not tunnelling all four survivors in one match. Having four copies of DS on the opposing team just means no matter who you pick, there will be a DS to protect them when they get unhooked, but that's no different from picking one and randomly hitting the one person who has DS.
In that regard, 4 DS is no more powerful than 1 DS.
you can tunnel someone for preasure when you are on 1 or 2 gens left with few hooks not to mention 4 man teams running ds doesnt run just ds but other strong meta perks like unbreakable or dead hard so their options are huge and only one who is having some chance are meta killers which have powers that can deal with all these perks. Just imagine they are very good in doing gens and they arent super bad at looping then with m1 killer you dont have much options because they will have deffinitely 3 gens done on your 3-4 hooks which is huge difference in preasure.
But now you're pointing at 'what if you're really far behind' and 'what if they have OTHER perks' and 'what if they're just playing better than you', and none of those are arguments against DS. If your argument for DS being a problem consists of a myriad of other factors that are unrelated to DS, then DS is not the issue.
If DS is only an issue if you're already losing, if the team is stacked with other things, if the survivors outskill you, then DS is not the problem. If it needs other, more pressing issues to be on your radar as a concern, then it's quite a ways down the list.
1
