http://dbd.game/killswitch
Killers win if they kill 1 survivor early
I think this is the #1 problem with the game design.
It's why people complain about tunneling.
If 1 survivor dies early then the killer wins because the remaining survivors cannot advance the game.
If survivors could advance the game then tunneling becomes far less of an issue.
Too many games end this way. 1 survivor dies. The rest run around in a limbo waiting to die doing nothing but waiting for the killer to find and kill them.
And I think it's one of the reasons why 2v8 feels so much better. There's very few games where games stop advancing.
If the developer could meaningfully address this in 1v4 I think the game would be far better.
Like it may not even be something that meaningfully changes the escape or kill rates. But you need survivors to have a reason to continue participating in the game.
Maybe the games been out too long to change the model, maybe we're stuck with what we have, but I think DBD could do better.
Just as an aside; before patch 6.1 there were fewer games that had this problem. Generators were faster, killers were weaker, 3 survivors could often advance games. But due the efficiency currently required this isn't the case anymore. 1 survivor dies and games are usually over.
Comments
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Get very good at looping and waste the killer's time enough for your teammates to finish gens, or stick to gens if someone else is being chased and hope they do the same instead of just giving up instantly due to your own mindset.
Worst case? Get chased on purpose anyway, then practice chase vs that killer. Or blame the person who got tunneled out so fast that your team couldn't get enough gen progress to be in a contestable state when they die. Or blame your teammates for not engaging in said gen progress.
You can do things to improve your chances, if you try. Its more effective than beating a horse to death without any real solution. Your teammates who don't give up immediately will thank you. Its more effective than yet another woe is me post about tunneling.
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Survivor players can practice chasing. Calling the tactics that killers choose to gain an advantage 'unfair' is nothing more than a mindset unsuited for competitive games.
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i would like to point of before 6.1 killers were not hitting the 60% kill rate the devs were aiming for. i believe peanit actually made a post explaining prior to 6.1 killers were underperforming which is why they buffed killers so yes survivors could win more before 6.1 but thats not what the devs wanted. since 6.1 they have now achieved the balance they wanted.
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They're cheese tactics. Tunneling/slugging/camping take a few hours to "master". Running a killer for 2-3 gens takes far, far more skill from the survivor than any killer needs to secure a 3-4K.
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that's a great point. telling a survivor to potentially gain thousands of hours of experience in the game verse a tactic that any new player can pick up after a few games is peak dbd logic.
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BHVR tried to fix the issue with the anti-tunneling/slugging/camping update. Unfortunately the devs had no backbone and almost entirely scrapped the update not because the update was bad, but because killer mains are unwilling to adapt and content creators used propaganda to convince the hive mind that the update was bad.
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First off lets grt this out of the way: if survivors do nothing after a survivor dies, then they shouldnt get to win anyway.
Now: a survivor dying early on doesn’t necessarily mean game over. Chances go drastically down but it doesnt mean that escaping by exit gate is impossible. Especially if there is 1-2 gens remaining. 3 survivors if play well can get the last gen powered up and even get an exit escape, it is not impossible and happens. If there is a survivor dead and only 2-3 gens done with minimal progress, then this simply means that survivors made colossal mistakes and shouldn’t get to win anyway especially with all second chance perks existing.
speaking of second chance perks, it should be extremely difficult to tunnel out a survivor before at least 3 gens completed on most killers. If you use meta and dont gove the killer 5 second chases. Just shoulder the burden alone means an extra chase. On top of that there is decisive strike and exhaustion perks. On top of that there is reassurance. The survivors can choose to not unhook and proc the reassurance while the killer camps.
There are so many ways to avoid a tunnel out that if someone dies that early it’s a matchmaking issue or a thrower.Post edited by karatekit on0 -
It's possible to win as 3 survivors against 1-2 gens left. You basically need one good chase for it (just prerun like crazy).
If someone dies at higher gens, it's definetly an issue, but that simply shouldn't happen. It means survivors just played bad…You can keep survivor on hook for 70 seconds per stage, you get early tunnel out only if someone unhooked too soon.
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Yeah, it took me so many hours to learn how to hold W, which is enough against majority of killers.
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You are in essence complaining about matchmaking placing bad survivors against good killers. In an ideal setting both the killer and survivor suck at looping or both are good at looping. In the latter case you will see that survivor has a lot of agency in chases and going down is a skill issue now that the pallet dilemma is mostly solved.
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"you need survivors to have a reason to continue participating in the game"
That's the crux of it. But i do think, as you mention, it might be too late. I don't think the game is retaining new players at a high enough rate to enable any significant culture shift, which leaves alot of us old and jaded players. Alot of people don't take well to change and are set in their ways. Even if a change might help the health and longevity of this game we all enjoy, people would still stamp their feet and refuse to budge.
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100% this. Tunneling only works if 1) the target can’t sustain chases and 2) the other survivors aren’t doing gens while the target is getting chased.
Not a popular opinion around here, but it’s a lot easier to complain than it is to improve at the game.
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I think this is a huge part of it, just a general resistance to change.
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The flip side is if you make it so killers cannot kill survivors quickly then gens will just fly. Most killers do not have strong powers so juggling 4 survivors only works if survivors are significantly worse than you. And survivors wouldn't enjoy facing solely nurses and ghouls either who have strong powers to have quick chases to get multiple hooks quickly.
In my opinion the speed of which killers or survivors can complete their objective is just too fast for games to be enjoyable. You have to adjust both sides objectives, because just nerfing killers when gens can be done in 3 minutes is not better for the game.
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exactly this. if tunneling gets nerfed so must gen speeds. how they both get nerfed is another matter but you cant have 1 without the other. maybe keep the old ptb anti tunnel and put a block on gens for a certain time frame or at certain intervals like a basekit dead mans switch sort of thing? increase gen speeds? increase regress on gens? no idea, but only working on tunneling without addressing the speeds that caused the tunneling just wont work. slow the gens down, slow the kills down, slow the game down as a whole.
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Tunneling at 5 gens is the norm. Literally, just happened right now. "Getting good" when one has 15 seconds of hit immunity with a 5 yard start on the next chase is a joke. Return to the hook for the win...every game.
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if tunneling gets nerfed so must gen speeds. how they both get nerfed is another matter but you cant have 1 without the other.
Evidently you can, so long as it favours the killer.
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This seems like a non-sequitur.
@killer_hugs is explaining why the game breaks down IF a certain scenario occurs.
Discussing HOW that situation can be avoided is a different topic, especially being as survivor you don't have control over the other three players.
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Basekit auto BNP in such cases is a must, it should remove -20 charges each time survivor dies at early game when 2-5 gens left so survivors have some hope and killers will be afraid to tunnel as for slugging they should've release one that was from last ptb because I see a lot of slugging lately too
And if 3 or less survivors left killers endgame perks should be weaker too since they tend to camp/tunnel from the start to destroys rest survivors easily at endgame
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2-5 gens is mid to late game 4-5 is early game
And what else is the killer supposed to do in endgame besides slugging and camping? Waddle around the map to find the tbagging sable at the exit gate?
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- I'll tell you the most controversial thing in the history of this forum... but originally the hatch was used precisely to "limit" and discourage tunneling. The old Hatch appeared based on a calculation of completed generators/players remaining in the game. If I remember correctly, if there were 3 players remaining, all it took was 4 completed generators and then the Hatch would appear. The Hatch remained open for 10 seconds after 1 survivor had used it, after which it automatically closed and the remaining players had to escape through the doors. This is why tunneling (even though it has always existed) is so powerful and effective today... it simply wasn't an automatic win for killers with the old mechanics.
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It's funny to read the comments about tbags, like teenagers, honestly, who get offended by all sorts of nonsense. If you're so scared to look at them, either look at the wall or watch youtube or better grow up.
Post edited by Amanova on1 -
I'll put it this way: tunneling doesn't really have a justification because it comes from factors that can't be balanced independently. Gen time can't be adjusted into oblivion due to a variety of Killer powers, chase perks, maps and tiles, and the difference between casual and experienced players. If the devs want to fix this, they have to rework the core gameplay, because their scrap ideas are not good enough, like a lack of spreading pressure, or making the game more engaging for both sides.
I don't know a game that normalizes something because its core design is not well thought out.2 -
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I think a less heavy-handed way of addressing this might be to make it that some of the strongest Killer perks deactivate once a Survivor is dead, like Hex: Ruin used to. If a Killer wants to tunnel early to try and guarantee a win, that's their prerogative, but then they shouldn't also get to benefit from really powerful slowdown or regression like Pain Res, Grim Embrace and Dead Man's Switch on top of having a numbers advantage. That way there is an *optional* system of disincentive for tunnelling that doesn't just punish Killers for existing like the previous attempts at universal anti-tunnelling changes did. It would also help if they buffed some of the weak Killer perks that rely on spreading pressure to function, like Ravenous, Dying Light, Thanatophobia, Furtive Chase, Hex: Huntress' Lullaby, Friends Till The End etc.
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Easy and elegant solution for the problem: make all survivors share the hook states, so that they all have a pool of 12 hooks and only start dying after 8th hook, even if it was the same survivor. To balance that off, make the gens take twice as long and raise the gen kick limit.
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true he should be weaker and endgame perks should get nuked too if he tunnels from the start or at early game
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so instead of fixing an issue ungoing with the community we should just attack those people… got it… no wonder new players dont stick around
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But then when i avoid this issue by joining a swf and run more anti-perks.
Killers will say its unfair or its cheating. Even though there is nothing i can do in soloq even if i run babysitter and shoulder the burden.
Instead of expecting the side with less replayability and less survivals/win to require less hours by forcing killers to not just target the fresh install and by proxy make killer players actually learn how to loop against perks/tiles, learn how to zone, use powers more effectively while also lowering survivors required experince just to play the game.
You make everyone a swfing sweatlord because you give soloq no other viable option. Great idea.
Not like we are already doing it and backfiring by just playing in swfs only, even if the people you play are questionable.
I mean, im sure killers appricate having a taste of their own medicine because playing in a swf gives them close to zero chance of winning no matter what they do unless they play the full meta aswell.
Which is, indeed a horrid design to enforce and bystand.
I wouldnt have any problem "getting good" if killers got the same treatment, but they dont, you dont need 1k+ hours to get good at killer and i doubt they ever will increase that threeshold or change it.
And, before anyone says "play killer" i have. Close to 800 hours.
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The update wasnt perfect but it was true that the devs had no backbone because killers refused to learn and adapt more than just "slug/tunnel".
They easily could've keept the anti-slug and anti-camp feature, but once again refused because of very situational scenarios that bhvr for some reason cant just work around to any problem that killers threw out to refuse to go through with it.
nerf sabos and learn to dodge and pick up in wierd angles, fake pick ups, you can still slug if you need to, you dont need to excessively slug for no reason. Flashlight saves have never been fairer since the flashbang nerf and BGP nerf.
As if the 60% killrate wouldnt have been adjusted with more killer buffs or perk buffs down the line, if it really was "this bad".
The 50h killer vs 1k hour survivor experince makes no sense and why no one bothers to play survivor if there arent any interesting modes or perks to compensate, the queue times are proof of that. It would never be this long for killer if it was "fair and balanced" for both sides.
But no outrage for kaneki. Pathetic.
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But you still haven't explained the reason for your irritation with the tbagging Sable, tell me, what's wrong with that? What if Sable does challenges/archives after opening the gate or do totem/sabos hooks for points? Didn't you think about that or are you only interested in the killers fun?
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I very much miss the bug when the killer tunneled
You had a chance of popping all gens at once and powering the gates (depending how many are dead and progress been done)
This 100% fixed all the 4k slugging i have ever had, crazy how you literally have to force the killers hand to play the game instead of just delaying and playing against hatch, to get a more optimized gaming experinced.
It even gave the guy being chased a chance to escape via hatch once you opened the door and escaped.
Even if that wasnt the case, the killer either had to slug and lose his remaining kill via anti-slug perks
Or take his kill, get his win and move the ######### on.
But bhvr apperently still dont want to fix the 4k slugging issue…even though this would pinpoint the 60% more accurately and give survivors a more pleasant experince instead of just playing floor simulator for 4 mins while the other survivor gives up or hides for hatch.
And no, the killer isnt forced to slug for the 4k, that almost never happens.
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True, I had a ton of matches against Myers today, I don't understand why he's so hyped? And yes, of course, we barely made it to 1 gen as solo players. He's simply impossible to loop on mid-range loops, especially when he freezes a pallet in an event, you just get hit (and it's unfair 1 shot too), it's so annoying. And there have been so many slugging killers lately especially at end game when 3 survivors left, I don't understand why they haven't added anti slug measure they should stop pleasing killer mains!
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Best thing I've seen is tie the anti tunnel/slug to how many gens there are left. 5 and 4 gen survivors get their protection after 2 or 3 gens are repaired they lose it. Shouldn't impact weaker killers that much while it'll slow down the cracked mobility killers like Ghoul and Blight.
If they try to hold gens at 99 to keep the protection it'll be too much risk with all the gen regression have to use and it'll really only be possible with highly coordinated SWF teams.
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let me put it this way why should i care if the sable has challanges etc? or how would i even know? there is no visual way to know what people have brought in terms of challenges or sorts. The only "Visible" challange are glyphs wich i respect and let them do
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Everyone has known for years that tuennling is bad for the health of the game. My point is that the community needs to stop just lamenting it and try to do something about it themselves. And especially when it comes to the defeatest attitude that sandbags everyone around them.
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How is that the killer's responsibility? Killers have challenges/archives, do you slow the game down so they can do theirs. I bet you dont
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Hes atleast playable again compared to before you had to stalk....and stalk only to have a noticeable coup buff and be able to insta-down everyone with a tr.
Compared to now, his stalking is still holding him back, the thing that worked for me is to always hold w, especially when charging, because if hes charging he still has to get close, and hes most likely to predict of hitting onto the pallet or window loop.
Worst case you stun and keep looping, i rather play myers than play against kaneki for the 600th time.
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Judging by these comments, it seems the closest the devs could get to pleasing everyone would be to go the 2v8 route. Where gen speeds slow down or speed up depending on how the killer is progressing. If someone is taken out early, then it gives remaining survivors some hope and incentive to get going. Would hopefully help bring down DCs too. And if the survivors are getting gens done faster than the killer can keep up, then they slow down.
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