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Toolbox Discussion: Would You Rather...
I don't think it's controversial to say that toolboxes are at least potentially far too strong; even if a brown toolbox might not be all that good, a properly stacked Commodious Toolbox is one of the strongest things a survivor can bring into the game.
The purpose of this discussion isn't really to properly commit to a suggestion surrounding toolboxes, but rather poll the community to see which of two changes would go over better, because I'm a little curious which people would prefer to actively use and which people would prefer to face.
The two ideas being pit against one another in a blood sport to the death are…
1: Toolboxes lose repair speed entirely, instead gaining the ability to provide a shield against regression for each charge spent. Whenever a generator is targeted with regression, it's taken from the shield first, then any excess (if there is any) is taken from the generator's actual progress. The shield blocking regression this way would consume those shielded charges; you'd only have to eat through a 20-charge shield with a single Pain Res proc, for example.
2: Toolboxes are soft reverted to something more in line with their original state; massively increased charges, dramatically decreased speed. For the sake of balance, there would also be a hard difference between repair and sabotage toolboxes, where only dedicated sabotage toolboxes with fewer charges can be used to break hooks and repair toolboxes do not have that functionally. For the sake of discussion, we'll assume the repair speed would be a static 10% for all rarities.
In both cases, the increased skill checks while repairing would be unchanged.
I'm interested in both the survivor and the killer perspective here. Which would you view as fairer? Would either be clearly better than the other, and if so which? Would either be a nightmare to face on par with current toolboxes?
Discuss!
Comments
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Toolboxes need to be reworked to bridge the gap between a toolbox by itself, and a toolbox stacked with perks and addons.
Because a regular toolbox by itself is fine. But a Commodious Toolbox, stacked with extra charges and Hyperfocus, is not fine.
- All toolboxes should be 16 or 18 charges, because 32 charge toolboxes stack too well with perks.
- Toolboxes should not give extra skill check percentages if the survivor has a perk like Hyperfocus that scales off skill checks.
- The +charge addons should be nerfed.
We've had reworks for medkits, maps, and keys… so the game is long overdue for reworks to toolboxes.
-8 -
Of the two suggested, though, which would you prefer?
It's those two I'm gauging interest in, rather than other options.
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Neither, because neither addresses the issue where toolboxes scale too much with stacking.
-5 -
I mean, wouldn't that be the first one?
You can't stack toolbox speed with other speeds if toolboxes don't have repair speed on them.
-2 -
All items and addons should be removed from the game. Perks and pure skill should be enough for a good gameplay without having to deal with endless balancing issues of busted addons.
-9 -
- You still want the increased skill check chance to exist, which is what scales too much with Hyperfocus
- Replacing the gen speed with gen shields would just mean the gen shields would scale too much when stacked, which doesn't solve the "things can stack too much" problem
- A lot of survivors will just hate the shield idea, because if they stack shield stuff, and the killer ends up having 0 slowdown perks, they might feel like their build is "wasted".
- If gen shield stuff gets more popular, it might just encourage killers to bring gen blocking perks instead of gen regression perks, which is also going to feel bad for the survivors that stack gen shield stuff.
-3 -
Sure, in order:
1: Completely separately to this set of suggestions, I think Hyperfocus shouldn't work with toolboxes. It was outside the scope of this post to mention that, though.
2: Would they? If it's charge-based and not time-based then you'd get the exact same amount of gen shield, you'd just apply it faster. That's not even stacking at that point, it's just synergy.
3: I made this post to poll survivor opinions alongside killer opinions, so if that's the case I'm hoping to hear about it.
4: Ditto the above for this.
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2) Then I'll rephrase my comment to say that "the problem with toolboxes is they synergize way too much with addons and perks"
-4 -
The thing I'm interested in exploring is whether this synergy would be problematic, though.
The current issue is unambiguously that generators get completed too quickly when toolboxes are used, especially in conjunction with other repair speed options.
If what you get is the exact same amount of protection but slightly quicker… is that a problem on the same level? Synergies existing isn't an issue, after all, it's only when you get too much value from them that it's a problem.
Again, this isn't a suggestion, I'm interested in exploring this topic. I have no strong opinions yet.
-1 -
The problem isn't synergy. The problem is there is way too much of a performance difference between a toolbox being used by itself, and a toolbox being used in with addons and perks.
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I wouldn't use the first option. I can power through a Pain Res hit with Deja Vu and Resi. That just doesn't interest me at all. The satisfaction I get from toolboxes is watching the gen progress speed up.
The second could work. I do agree very much there should be a hard distinction between sabo and repair toolboxes. I'd like to see that reflect in their visuals as well. Ngl, as a stacked Commodius toolbox user, if I'm playing killer and I see a lobby of 4 toolbox users, I'm dodging. But if I couod see they were all sabo-only boxes, I wouldn't.
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Right, but the problem with that difference is that the higher level of performance is a huge issue and the lower end of performance is barely worth bringing.
So, I'm trying to contrast a common community suggestion - the shield instead of repair speed - with something I've been contemplating, which is balancing a lower repair speed number, to see which people might prefer.
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The distinction between the kind of toolboxes is definitely a major reason I've been considering the latter option recently. I'm typically of the opinion that just lowering repair speed as a nerf wouldn't be satisfying for anyone when it comes to toolboxes, but offsetting it with extra charges opens up some interesting synergies without getting too out of hand I think.
Appreciate the insight though, I'm very curious where people would land on this comparison!
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The shield is an interesting idea. Kind of protects against regression but isn't always the "optimal pick", depending on the killers build, which I think is healthy. Similar to, say, bringing a medkit against Plague or something.
I've also considered a third option of a toolbox "locking in" gen progress. So, using the toolbox locks in the amount repaired while consuming the toolbox so the gen can't be regressed below that amount. Maybe 33% or something at most. And, to be clear: instead of increased repair speed.
5 -
I don't know why this hasn't been done honestly. There's such a huge difference in the two distinctly seperate functions they might as well be two different items. I almost never sabo hooks with my Commodius nor do I ever use the related add-ons. I'd have to already be standing next to the hook the killer is heading to for me to even consider. Gen jockeying and saboteuring are pretty different playstyles. I guess maybe it's so the killer doesn't have even more info in the lobby but whatever, you can also do the last second switcheroo.
Post edited by cogsturning on0 -
If I had to pick, 2.
1 creates so many niche interactions and potential problems that if I had to pick one I’d rather have the old ones back. Although that would introduce a new problem where long charges = many skillchecks which you can use to bang out gens with perks like bardic, hyperfocus, and stake out, potentially even faster than current by trading speed for better rng.
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they should probably just delete items from the game, maybe have survivors start the game injured or in the dying state, maybe just remove the exit gates too so they can't even escape. lol
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