A general lack of sympathy from ignorance

Yet they have teammates, and can abandon if in that position when they do not. They can bring anti-slug perks, but are incentivised not to because their teammates can be in positions where they can abandon before you even get to use them. My point is that you can't skew concepts like finality as you see fit, the details may vary but a check vs a checkmate is a very clear distinction that occurs before a match ending or even an individual elimination. You need to keep that scope consistent when comparing roles with different structures.

a team which I cant communicate with which every other team game that exists allows for some sort of comms with the team. my point in pointing it out is that is why you cant compare dbd to other games. because the killer is the power role.

Those are not the Killer's objectives, though. They are simply ways of working towards them, which have different perspectives due to the afforementioned design differences. If a survivor has zero agency but a killer has full, does that mean the killer has won the game? Or simply put the survivor into a position where they control their agency? Thats a very important distinction when comparing a 1v4 setup.

That's my point with agency, the killer can work towards there objective in different ways. Someone that is on the hook cannot work towards there objective they can only swing there arms around on hook, they don't even have the agency to communicate with there team.

Edit: my original reply was to a comment trying to compare dbd to non 1v4 games and "why is dbd not like these communities" its the agency between roles.

Have you never played a team sport?


I've never played one where the team cant communicate with someone else on the team and strategize with them.

I wont accept other teammates as agency is a surefire way to have your team not get any wins in a season, regardless of the reason.

Cutting off the part where I say "without comms" I'm not saying I wont accept it just not without comms. "regardless of the reason" no the reason is a big issue.

That applies to everything from baseball and hockey down to teams in mobas and fps. Communication can be often extremely minimal in those sports,

I don't agree with that statement at all the baseball and hockey players can communicate with each other what you think training is, even in fps if they don't have mic they have ping system.

But being good enough to counter tunneling isn't going to make it any more fun to go against.

Then you can't find enjoyment from improvement, nor better outcomes, nor punishing people for relying on such strategies as a crutch. I'm going to have to assume you've never had to adapt to an aspect of a game you dislike, because being able to turn frustraton into delayed gratification and enjoyment is pretty common when experiencing those types of improvements. Or you could just compound your frustration and demand the devs cater to your lack of enjoyment and make others enjoy the game even less in the process. This is why I keep trying to emphasize to you that it is empathetic advice, regardless of whether you're willing to accept it.

The only scenario I haven't been in is the one doing the tunneling.  But what do the first four scenarios have in common?  None of them are fun!

So you've never been in a situation where tunneling was the right call? How can you be as dismissive when you haven't even worn your opponent's shoes? I do not believe that tunneling is always the necessary play to compete in the game, but I don't have the hubris to claim a stance as absolute as yours without even experiencing it.

I have been tunneled. I have been tunneled many times, by many killers. Some better than me, some not. But the biggest growth I learned in how to tunnel it came from trying it myself, from seeing how people misdirect, their routing, their pathing, how they used tools mid chase to buy distance or time, etc. If you refuse to improve, and you refuse to put yourself in your enemy's shoes, what do you hope to achieve with your complaints? It feels like you want to demand empathy while refusing to show an ounce yourself, and I'm saying that in the hopes you might change that outlook. You will only keep burning yourself out and hating the game more and more over time, even if you get your way about things.

Pointing this out every time is just as pointless as pointing out that anti-camp is actually anti-FACEcamp.  We KNOW that all Killers are not the same, all Survivors are not the same, so I'm sorry I can't specify that in every single comment I make.

Then why did you barge into the topic blaming killers right off the bat? The topic is supposed to be about a bipartisan concept, considering the perspective of your opponent, yet all I see are complaints that your opponents refuse to do so while refusing to be the better person. I'll stop pointing it out when you stop doing it, especially when I have not made the claims you are arguing at me.

But in this case, I believe the generalization is accurate because jesterkind is the ONLY Killer player I've seen state and explain why tunneling is unhealthy for the game as a whole. Yes, they may have played Survivor as well, but they've stated that they are primarily a Killer player.

I've discussed it multiple times, and even proposed solutions to it on many occasions. I apologize I don't lead every post with a resume of every stance I've ever had in DBD (as most people don't do this) so maybe it would be more effective to go off of what individuals say, rather than what you project onto entire role (one which I, ironically, rarely play.) Empathy helps with not making those generalizations. You can agree and disagree with people regardless of what role they main, the important thing is to address their points (whether for or against) independent of any such affiliations, and take their experiences into consideration.

All those nuances mean little, because the tunneled Survivor still dies too quickly, leading to the quick death of the whole team. In fact, there's an active topic about that...

There's also countless experiences of survivors, many of which are even on sites like youtube and twitch, not only escaping being tunneled but turning it into a game losing move for the killer. The way this is worded tells me you care more about being validated than you do understanding your opponent, which makes me question why you would keep posting in a topic about the latter.

I honestly don't know what you hope to gain from this conversation.

So you've never been in a situation where tunneling was the right call?

Even when tunneling was the right call, I still wouldn't do it.  If I lose as a result, fine.  I prefer to play with honor and lose than sweat my arse off and win.

Thats neat. More power to you. But its not going to help you understand how to effectively counter it, which leads me back to what you're trying to accomplish. If you are just trying to spread good vibes, great, we could all use more of that! But if you want to reduce the impact an unfun situation has when you find yourself in it, self destructive levels of moral superiority is not going to do you any favors. In a genre like fighting games, refusing to engage in basic concepts like zoning or neutral because of moral objections means accepting you will never improve as a player, and is a mindset that is actively looked down on in almost every genre, like @Reinami has been arguing. Pretty sure TLC even wrote a song about it a few decades ago.

My point isn't to argue. I stick with these discussions because I do honestly intend to expand people's mindsets to their opponents, regardless of how any of us personally feel about them. If you don't want to learn from it, I have to reiterate, what do you hope to gain?

Not only do I understand, its like I'm talking to my 2017 self. I took my own advice and lament these scenarios significantly less than I did in the past. Do they still suck? Sure! but they're both far less frequent and far less impactful when they do happen, because killers tend to recognize I'm not an easy target and look for someone who is to maximize their efficiency in adjusting the game's time scale. If you want understanding, argue less and discuss more.

 If that hasn't helped me improve, then what will?

I've given this advice multiple times, but identifying shortcomings and frustrations and working on improving at them. I'm pretty sure I remember you posted a gameplay video of a chase not too long ago (correct me if I'm wrong, can't remember the thread to verify,) which I went through in regards to going against a Wesker. You had a lot of foundational ideas that were consistent with the understanding of a 2k+ player, but not the confidence nor execution of that level of experience. And that in itself is fine, especially when I spent my first few years pretty much solely gen jockeying and over-relying on stealth. But 200 hours of direct growth is worth more than 5000 hours of stagnation, so its important to identify things like bad habits, mindsets, and muscle memory and adapt them if they get in the way.

If you want understanding, play your opponent. Be willing to do the things you hate that they do to you, even if you have to stop at the last second and just let the survivor go afterward if you conscience demands it. Watch killer main content creators, look past the myriad of opinions you disagree with and focus on their reasoning and logic in their moves. Many of them are actually quite good at explaining that type of thing if you are genuinely willing to hear them out. If you know any particularly skilled players, you can even request they coach you on aspects you struggle with. Experience is not the same as skill, or even understanding the game itself, it just facilitates those types of improvement. Its not a passive experience, and its not something you gain by forcing arguments.

I was convinced the crazy amount of information the HUD update provides would fix solo q because I was under the assumption players would at least attempt to learn additional information through applying deductive reasoning and gleaning contextual information from it. Then I remembered people don't even bother with kindred but demand it basekit.

We constantly get taught how to fish, but just demand we're given more fish instead.

I mean they'll end up with you tunneled less, but you're not helping your chances of winning by going that far. Hook states and even just killer attention are a shared resource between the whole survivor team, and extensive avoidance is purposely designed to be inefficient for that reason. The only real dishonor is toward your teammates, who probably don't appreciate all being on death hook 6 hooks into a match. Its basically playing for a draw from the start, and hoping you stumble into a win.

Edit: Stealth in itself is a perfectly valid strategy, but its very easy to overdo to the detriment of your team. Time and place, don't let it prevent you from stepping up when you need to, etc.

Those would be custom servers in rust, which DBD has custom matches. If you want to go by that logic. In the default gameplay experience (I.E. official servers) you can get offlined.

DotA does not have a surrender option at all. it is not possible, you MUST stick it out the entire match.

That wasn't what I asked. I asked what you would find honorable, not dishonorable.

All that is besides the point, my point is that playing my way works for me, it makes it fun, prevents me being tunneled and i often win.

And my point, in a topic about empathy within the community, is that you are actively transferring those negatives to your teammates, decreasing their chances of having a fair shot at winning, and doing nothing to actually engage in self growth that naturally leads to better outcomes both for yourself and your teammates. Just remember this every time you ever see a survivor post about useless teammates, because TOO MUCH stealth makes you exactly that. You are being who they are complaining about. You could be instead improving your weaknesses, but instead you want whatever shortcut you can get. The irony of using that as a counter to excessive tunneling is just bafflingly shortsighted.

I wish players did play like me, maybe if they did then i wouldnt think "why risk myself to unhook a awful looper that will go down in 10sec after i have been hooked trying to save them?"

The irony is that this is the first thing survivors think when they see someone crouched in a corner doing nothing. If more people thought like you, it wouldn't go like you think.

No matter what i do i rely on my team mates….if i loop i rely on the team to do gens. if they dont do gens my looping is a waste of time which is often the case in soloq

Thats true, but so is preemptively letting your teammates down by not doing your job when its time to step up. And to reiterate, your job is more than just being a gen jockey (regardless of how important doing gens is.)

if i stealth i rely on others looping well.

And if they stealth, they rely on you to loop well. See how quickly it falls apart when 50% of your team is actively avoiding the killer?

 if they dont then gens are not getting done by the time the killer gets a kill, especially if they have pain res.

And the only way you can directly control that is by using your superior looping skill to waste the kiler's time. You can hope that others will step up and do it for you, but you can (I assume) actively control yourself in game. Notice how there is a constant? It even improves in efficiency as your skill does, as chase on both sides is arguably the biggest form of skill expression in the game, and can be directly improved on the individual level.

 fact is, when 3 other people on the team dont do the objective and generally dont bother then there is a point where i have to rely on my own ability to stay alive long enough to get hatch or open gate at the end.

And your solution is to be one of those 3 right off of the bat. Because again, gluing yourself to gens can only include avoiding the killer if you avoid any and all pressure they apply on said area. Just to make sure we're on the same page, excessive stealth isn't the same thing as "not running directly into the killer," its putting avoidance above any of your objectives that may jeopardize it. Hatch is also a pity escape, and being able to open the gate after hatch is closed is extremely RNG dependent on gate positions. Its more effective to work toward actually escaping the right way than it is playing in a way that specifically hopes to be given scraps from the table.

There is a reason i play the way i do…. soloq players do go adepts, they do totem challenges, go for blinds, meme around, go next or DC. What your describing where people share hooks, share chase time, this is SWF not soloq.

Thats a self fulfiling roadblock. You only expect that kind of stuff from SWF because you assume everyone in solo holds you back, yet your playstyle actively holds back everyone around you by design. If more players thought like you and whatnot.

Everything about the game suggests it is not a "team". it is 1 v 1 v 1 v 1 v 1….the survivors may have a common goal they may not, they may work as a team, they may not. 

That stupid quote did more damage to this game's community than release Legion. You aren't "vs" your teammates if you have the same shared goal, and it isn't mutually exclusive to their own completion. The gate doesn't have 3 exits and one person is forced to stay behind. The closest you have to any vs between survivors is ironically regarding rats waiting out the hatch spawn vs each other. You are on a team with your teammates.

This is how the game is designed. the hatch, the score system, mmr, BP rewards, personal challenges even perks designed around stealth and selfish play.

Lets do a rundown real quick. A pity mechanic designed to prevent players from giving up when they've already lost, A score system that has limits on categories to force diversification in how you play (including 1/4th minimum of the total being dedicated to interacting with the killer, and another 1/4th being dedicated to helping teammates) an extremely badly implimented MMR that nobody has been happy with pretty much since its introduction, "BP rewards"(?) which I'm assuming is referring to rank rewards(?) which are determined by emblems and not escapes (many pips requiring, again, well rounded play including both interacting with the killer and literal altruism) personal challenges which have pretty much always just been directions to sandbag yourself selectively since their inception, and rat perks being in the game.

With this in mind, it is irrelevant if my actions are a detriment to the "team" because there is no team

Then I hope you get out of every match exactly what you put into them in your future, my friend. May you live forever.

What you're describing sounds like the wade pool for the new players and such. If you're finding these players constantly, then you may be right that getting out of low mmr is difficult in solo'Q.

I'd be willing to run some games with ya! Not because I think you need it, I just always like playing with someone new to me! Im PST but have mastered the 200+ ping DH, so I'd be fine with any ping issues. Lemme know!

Unfortunately a lot of it comes down to ego. One of the biggest aspects of the scrub mentality is a desire to shift blame away from oneself, which is why "I lost because of X! Ban it so I lose less!" is such a popular direction these posts tend to take, especially when seeking vindication more than improvement. Improvement requires taking personal responsibility, and that seems to get disincentivized more with every year.

As for the end, thats an unfortunate aspect of Tilt. Everything tends to get less about logic and reason, more about emotion and impulse. Its the essence of when to take a break, because even aside from all of that, it tends to make people play worse (especially in terms of things like patience and strategy) so its generally just best to take a step back whenever feeling it coming on. I can't count how many loss spirals it took me to take that one to heart, especially in games that really scratch that "just one more game before bed" itch.

You can share it all you want. Its just proof you fundamentally don't understand half the game's design, and cling to an edgy description about how you can leave people behind in the exit gate as justification to being actively opposed to them. Cheers.

Not to distract from your other 'calm and collected' discussion, but I was wanting to come back to playing some rounds with you. I read a few things about how you stealth and such, and I've been unable to do this. Might be a skill issue, might be I'm just not seeing something. But I'd love to run a few with ya and see if I can grab anything to use, perhaps get better. Doesnt have to be voice or anything if that's taboo. People get up in arms over comms, regardless of the reason lol

If this isnt something you're up for, all good. Just figured I'd try to get this stealth thing.

Can I get a link to that bubba game? Could totally learn stuff by watching this way also!